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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Interestingly things really seem to have changed, at least here in Melbourne amongst people born in 1990 and later...
Ryan mentioned today off-hand an old friend from primary school that happened to be gay as if there was no big deal. To me, finding another gay person would have been a breakthrough and I would have made an effort to form a friendship with them.
My brother, in Tasmania, knows gay people at his school (yr 12); another friend's brother has a gay friend (grade 9) and all of it is "no big deal".
Ryan even said he saw two grade 7 boys kissing today (though it may have been as a dare).
Most gay guys in High School seem to be happy with just their straight friends surrounding them, there seems little need for "gay solidarity". The only reason to even interact with other gay guys is when you're trying to pick up, get laid or find a boyfriend.
It's good that it's entirely "ordinary" to be gay amongst High School kids in bigger cities in Australia at least. But it's kind of sad to see the "gay community" disappear, too.
Is this a good thing, bad thing, neutral thing, inevitable thing? Do we want to be so mainstreamed that we don't even feel like a minority? That there isn't even a sense of kinship between us anymore than there's kinship between blondes?
I don't know.
But I think by the time people born in 1990 or later rule the world it'll be a very different place. If being gay is easy in High School, it sure as hell aint gonna be hard any other time in life...
That isn't to say the fight is totally over, but it's definitely come a long way in the last 6 years since I was in grade 12 and first joined this site. The war of attitudes seems to be mostly won, it's just the legal battles that'll be long and protracted.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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This indeed is a good news, that there's common sense and tolerance somewhere in the world. As to your thoughts. Will gay community disappear? No! Gays and lesbians will always search for others of our minority. Being part of community means easier search for possible partner. That's all. It's that simple. Being mainstreamed, well, why not? In the case that one is not looking for a partner actually, is there a need to be a part of crowd with particular sexual orientation, or is it need to be in crowd of people where one feels fine without sexual orientation being important?
And...please...I am blond and gay. Who cares?
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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This is all well and good in the large cities where tolerance seems to be the standard. But we don't all live in large cities and many parts of the world are still extremely intolerant. I hardly doubt those two grade 7 boys would have been kissing in the open in rural Alabama or even Idaho for that matter. Still, it gives one hope to know that tolerance is practiced in some places. I just hope it doesn't take a generation or two for it to trickle down to other places, if it ever does.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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I had one of those long, wideranging and interesting discussions that one occasionally has, going on til 2 in the morning, with my nephew and younger niece last Sunday. He's 14, lives in a major city, passionate about sports, and has many friends of a wide range of cultural backgrounds and ethnicities. She,aged 12, by contrast lives in a deeply-rural small village in East Anglia (and the south of the UK doesn't get more rural than that), in an effectively mono-cultural society.
It was deeply encouraging to me that both of them mentioned in passing having friends their own age who are gay/bi, and it is very clearly no big deal to either of them. It wasn't a major part of our talk, but was something I found very encouraging indeed.
At least in the UK, we may be reaching the point where many areas have moved beyond "tolerance" to it just being unremarkable - an aim I've worked for most of my adult life.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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It always depends where one is. In Saudi Arabia it is a big enough deal to be hanged. But, to give you an idea how attitudes change, I have, as you probably know, the builder in.
He said today "I'm finished with women. They're too much trouble!"
I suggested he could always turn gay.
"I might, at that," he said.
It's not as trivial as it seems. Builders are traditionally homophobic.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I was only speaking for my own experience.
Launceston where my family live is only a city of 80,000 or so, however.
There are places that are still intolerant, not all of them rural. Indeed some rural places are more tolerant (Vermont isn't exactly a bustling megalopolis).
But for those that can relate to my experience of being gay being "no big deal" does it feel odd? Because it does for me.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Dear Saben,
I'm curious to know whether, alongside the tolerance you see in Oz, there is a reduction in religious fervour and forms. When I was in Toronto I thought it an exceptionally civilised place (and it is very tolerant, I think) and during my week there I saw no signs of religion.
The deeply conservative Church of England can't accept a gay bishop and nor can the Roman Catholics and I don't think most Muslims are tolerant either.
I wonder what other characteristics go with gay tolerance as I'd like to be able to tell which places were and which not - and the converse which are the worst and most intolerant. I know little about Asia but hear that Japanese sexual customs and expectations are very different from her in England and wonder what it is like in China, Korea, Burma, Nepal and so on.
Love,
Anthony
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Dear Timmy,
it might be partly your perceptions of builders - thinking of them as yobs who wolf-whistle at every passing woman. They're not all like that. Some even do interior decorating!
Love,
Anthony
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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Agreed. Timmy, it's just like when someone says that all gays are promiscuous and effeminate. According to your own discreption of yourself, that's far from truth. As well as you, I'm a manly man, albeit not macho, but...
I can hear protests, because it is said that an exception confirms the rule, however, in my opinion, not in this case.
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Ah he also does decorating. But that is more of a stereotype than a builder!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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You seem pretty mad at him. When will you have it all finished?
Marek
P.S. Maybe he's in the closet secretly admiring you, therefore prolonging the whole progress. 
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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Dear Timmy,
I thought you might notice how far my tongue had gone into my cheek!
Love,
Anthony
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Oh, Marek,
what a lovely idea. I think if I were Timmy I'd be in danger of apoplexy!
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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We are four and a half weeks in to a 3 week project. I can't live in my house in any sort of comfort. I have his radio with his music and his tuneless whistling. I have dust, paint smells, the lot.
We expected to go out for trips, but no, the furthest I've been is to the electrical supplier to get electrical bits.
He is a very pleasant chap, he is just S L O W
All the jobs are 90% finished. All of them. Except the ones that haven;t been started yet. 100% would be great on just one!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear Timmy,
I remember when I was working for Elliott Automation how we were working on a project for the Royal Radar Establishment and for the third quarter running reported a three month slippage in progress.
The principal Scientific Officer in charge was beside himself with rage and frustration and, as far as I remember, it is the only time in my life that I have actually SEEN someone tear their hair out! Of course it was a 'cost plus' project so Elliotts didn't suffer one jot from being late (in fact they got paid more the more they over-ran). The only sanction would have been cancellation and as the project was part of the civil air transport airways control system they couldn't afford to do that.
Love,
Anthony
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The saying is usually that the exception proves the rule. This word 'prove' is important for most people take it in the sense of giving the evidence that substantiates the rule. I was always taught that in this saying 'prove' is used in its sense of to test, therefore to see if the rule is viable.
You take your choice.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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Thanks for explanation Nigel. This saying exists in Slovak, too, and the English word "confirm" suits the translation better. However, I could have looked it up in a dictionary. Thanks again.
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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I can see, what you mean. Having builders (plumners, whoever) at home for even a short period of time is kind of intruding and annoying, even if they do their job well. I wish you it was done as quickly and fine as possible from now on, without further prolongations and postpones. I also wish you that everything works OK then, the last think you want is having something repaired/mended/plumbed again soon.
Marek
P.S. Instead of outdoor activities you are sitting in front of your machine chatting with us. Aren't we lucky? Hugs...
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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