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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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A friend of mine uses this as his motto at one forum we are both members.
What do you of think of this statement, especially according to war-waging of Russia, China, US etc. in other countries?
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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When does a 'police action' turn into armed conflict?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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When money (in any form(oil, gas, companies)) is taken to account...
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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We can fight for peace using diplomatic skills, economic skills, cultural skills and so forth. Not all fights have to be armed conflict.
In some cases one has to fight not for peace but for liberty and even life; of course, one yearns for such a fight to end in peace; but the objective is not peace but the defeat of the enemy.
Perhaps one of the biggest lies of the 20th century was the claim that WWI was "the war to end all wars". Excuse my hollow laugh.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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It's a view I completely agree with. I have been for many years an "absolute" pacifist, meaning that I think the use of armed force in any situation is indefensible. This makes me pretty much of a minority of one here on this forum!
It doesn't mean that I don't believe in resistance if threatened - but by non-violent means. But best of all is to work to avoid the tensions and economic/other inequalities that lead to war (or so-called "police actions").
The peace pledge, to which I subscribe, reads:
"'War is a crime against humanity. I renounce war, and am therefore determined not to support any kind of war. I am also determined to work for the removal of all causes of war."
I should point out that world pacifism is a vision I try to work towards, not a goal I expect to achieve!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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How do you discuss philosophy with a machine gun?
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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It's almost impossible to regain your freedom once it's gone and your on your knees. It's a very hippy slogan though for a T-shirt...but not one I would choose to live by.
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Uncle Jim wrote:
> It's almost impossible to regain your freedom once it's gone and your on your knees.
It's pretty damned difficult to regain your freedom once you've been drafted into the armed forces, as well.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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The time I served in the army was one of my life experiences and I do not regret it. Some was bad to very bad but I lived through it and was proud knowing I did my best. The group I was with felt we were serving a good cause even though we lost a few good men. I must say it was a wonderful feeling to pass under the Golden Gate bridge coming home.
[Updated on: Thu, 28 August 2008 22:11] |
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Well, Uncle Jim,
my experiences in the forces were really pretty negative. I don't think I did anything worthwhile. We were led by people who were not admirable and stupid as well. I was not proud and am not and think it is anyway not an admirable thing to be. And I was given a healthy scepticism of the forces, the military mind and the politicians that control them.
At least in those days things were so inefficient that one could get away with avoiding a lot of what they wanted you to do.
But how can anyone be proud of any of the wars the USA or Britain have been involved with since 1945? As far as I can see every one was a disaster and Iraq, the latest of them, is one of the most disasterous.
War is the greatest calamity man can bring down on man. Einstein said as much and I agree with him.
And I've never met a morally honourable serviceman. They are all willing to kill if ordered to without compunction. People who are willing to kill for money are surely amoral and to be despised.
Love,
Anthony
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Anthony, the Falklands War was an honourable war which protected defenceless British people from having an alien way of life imposed on them. I have never agreed with our involvement in the Iraqi and Afghan wars.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I was once more pacifist than I am now, and I am still anti-war, but I agree with some of the comments Uncle Jim and Nigel have made.
As for the quote, I agree with it. Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity. But I see "peace" as a less worthy goal than "freedom". And fighting for freedom is not hypocritical. A lot of rights have been won through steel.
That said I still believe in non-intervention. I'm opposed to the Iraq War. I just believe that citizens of a nation need to defend themselves from threats abroad and threats at home. It is the Iraqis that should have went to war against Iraq, with foreign aid if and when requested.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Nigel wrote:
> Anthony, the Falklands War was an honourable war which protected defenceless British people from having an alien way of life imposed on them.
This is, at the very least, highly debatable.
An alternative point of view would be that the UK had been sending diplomatic signals for years that it really didn't care that much. Most of the Island's infrastructure (power, air strip etc) was supplied and maintained by Argentina. Argentina's decision to invade was strategically unbelievably poor, as there's a good chance they would eventually have achieved effective further control by negotiation. The UK's decision to retaliate was more from pique than sense.
The only remotely "honourable" thing about the whole sorry affair was the resignation of Lord Carrington as Foreign Secretary. The sinking of the Belgrano touched a nadir of British conduct unmatched until our recent entanglement with "extraordinary rendition".
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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"Extraordinary rendition"? Splain please.
J F R
[Updated on: Fri, 29 August 2008 11:39]
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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"Extraordinary rendition and irregular rendition are terms used to describe the apprehension and extrajudicial transfer of a person from one state to another", as Wikipedia puts it.
Crudely, the illegal kidnapping of people and taking out of the country, usually for purposes of torture and/or incarceration.
Despite frequent denials, the UK was forced to admit that its territories has been used as a staging posts for at least two of these events, and seems to have been complicit in either the actual rendition or the questioning under torture of assorted other detainees.
It's currently a rather live issue over here - see http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/22/terrorism.humanrights for example
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Yes, NW, that's an alternative point of view. I cannot share it, particularly the bit about diplomatic negotiation.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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>And I've never met a morally honourable serviceman. They are all willing to kill if ordered to without compunction. People who are willing to kill for money are surely amoral and to be despised.
And yet you were a serviceman. Are you amoral and despicable? I think not. Nor am I or the brave men and women I served with.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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Hey Anthony
My grandfather was a Yeoman Third Class United States Navy Reserves
He fought during World War Two on three DDE's{destroyer escorts}
He was an honorable man who served his country with dignity, why would you insult his memory and my family by assuming rather callously that he(and in this case most servicemen/women) was a dishonorable serviceman...
[Updated on: Fri, 29 August 2008 17:42] |
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unsui
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Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 17:44] |
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Well, the alternative English expression is " ... fucking for chastity", which you might find a closer analogy.
As a veteran of a reasonable number of CND, "Troops Out", "Not In My Name" and other assorted protests at the futility of it all, I've seen both "... virginity" and "... chastity" on placards, with the latter probably being more common.
NW
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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unsui
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Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 17:44] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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acam wrote:
> And I've never met a morally honourable serviceman. They are all willing to kill if ordered to without compunction. People who are willing to kill for money are surely amoral and to be despised.
And those who left nazi persecution to come to other nations and to fight against it, those who fought to end the extermination of Jews, Gypsies, non Aryan races, mentally ill, cripples, homosexuals in the holocaust? Those who turned to fight facing death voluntarily instead of compulsorily rather than simply fled? What of them?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Michael Sargeant (Since 1941) wrote:
> War occurs when that balance is disturbed, by over-population, greed or scarcity of natural resources.
I'd pretty much agree with that, though I tend not to see things in terms of the balance of power but in more general terms of inequality. Which is why the phrase "I am also determined to work for the removal of all causes of war." is such an important - and often overlooked - part of the Peace Pledge.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Yes. That's, of course, probably the hardest thing to achieve.
When oil is crucial to a certain way of life and there isn't enough oil for everyone to use either people need to sacrifice their lifestyles or engage in violence to secure oil off others.
NW, would you rather kill, or live the rest of your life without electricity? To me it is actually quite a difficult question. I'd like to think it is easy to answer "of course I wouldn't kill". But living without electricity..... No fridge, 90% of my entertainment gone, 99% of my communication gone, transport severely hampered, candles as the main source of light. And this would apply for all things that impact my life- most stores I shop at wouldn't be able to sell half the products they do.
So how many lives would I sacrifice to ensure Australia had electricity? More than one. Possibly even hundreds. There is always a case where lifestyle is worth more than life- otherwise people wouldn't drive cars. Cars destroy lives, yet the amount they improve our lifestyle makes the deaths caused worth it.
Grim, yet true.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Saben wrote:
> NW, would you rather kill, or live the rest of your life without electricity?
I'd rather work towards not having to make the choice! Alternative sources of electricity (hydro / solar-thermal / wind / tidal / geothermal / photovoltaic / waste biomass / "clean" coal, with underground gasification if necessary / etc.), massive reduction in the use of oil for private transport, massive reduction in the use of oil products (plastics) for everything non-recyclable.
There are very tough decisions to be taken NOW, if we are to avoid large-scale energy/resource wars in the next decade or so. It may already be too late - they are already happening in some parts of the world, over both oil and water.
But, to answer your question in more realistic terms, I would rather live in a society that was experiencing massive civil unrest and rioting than I would live in one that was engaged on largescale active warfare to take monopoly control of sources of oil.
Public-transport-using aging hippy tree-hugger? Yup, that's me! But the way forward is though improved technology to create and popularise low-impact lifestyles ... and an improved morality recognising a duty of care to fellow humans both in person and through the environment to go with it.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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