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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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This week and next all over the UK a new school year starts. She Who Must Be Obeyed has a new class of 6 year olds, all unknown to her. Very soon she gains an understanding of who has a brain, who is not yet ready to learn, who will go to jail, who will be a janitor etc. And she also sees signs of abuse.
She sees the kid who scribbles all over everything in black, for example. That really happens and it often but not always tells of an abusive situation at home.
She sees the kids with lunch boxes that contain nothing nourishing. She sees the kids who come to school with no breakfast. She sees skinny kids.
All these she can start to put right. There's a process for it, and the underfed ones can be solved at once by the school kitchen, even if it;s just a slice of bread and jam.
The ones she can't start to put right are the hippopotamus sized kids, the ones who, at 6 years old, are already heading for a life of immobility through blubber. There is no process for handling obesity.
But surely over-inflating your child IS abuse? Surely that is a child as much "at risk" as one who is starved?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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I am no psychologist, but a strange thing happened to me several years ago. I realised only long after it had occured... and it had happened only in this boy's case...
There was this boy who was like 10 at that time. I did not notice at first, I only realised later when he attended the lessons no more. It happened during a karate lesson when I noticed his belt had been losen and went to him to tighten it. I did but at first he withdrew very quickly, then he saw I was not going to harm him and relieved... Now I realise that he was often nervous and reacted by immediate withdrawal whenever I approached him unexpectedly. Today I'm pretty sure that he was (hell, maybe still is) beaten at home, maybe even sexually abused. But even if I had realised it then, i'm quite clueless how I would've reacted
(or should have).
Marek
[Updated on: Tue, 02 September 2008 12:09]
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Here, within the school environment at least, there is a formal Child Protection Officer. The teacher's job ends by reporting a child's odd behaviour to that officer, whose job it is to judge what to do and which help, if any, to call in.
My wife has saved two kids from sexual abuse by use of this procedure. The culprit is in jail now..
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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There are psychologists and kind of "behaviour counselors" in Slovak schools (especially high schools). They usually solve problems with alcohol, smoking and other drugs. I can't recall an affair of sexual character, which may mean 2 things: either everyone was blind, because in such a number of students there (according to statistics) simply have to be such affairs; or (better case) all affairs were hidden so the victims are protected from their peers' reactions. However, congrats to your wife. I'm sure she did a good job.
My case is different and more complicated. Father of that boy was wprking for the government in some kind of health department, the parents pay to us, and any such behaviour I should probably report to the head coach (and president of the club). How would he react? No idea...
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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Mark...in the US if you suspect a child is being abused, physically or sexually or mentaly, you are required to report it to the authorities. If you fail to report it, you can be charged with a crime. If a doctor in a hospital suspects abuse he must notify protective services. This is not a bad thing. To often people would hold back reporting abuse because they didnt want to get involved or thought they might be mistaken. The persons name is held confidence and the authorities investigate, if the child is being abused he or she is removed from the home immediately and an arrest is made.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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But what does one do when the parents are overstuffing their little darling with too much chocolatey deliciousness, and it balloons into a small zeppelin?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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You ask the club officers what to do if (in the future) you suspect that a child is "at risk".
Then you follow that process for the current child.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
But what does one do when the parents are overstuffing their little darling with too much chocolatey deliciousness, and it balloons into a small zeppelin?
It is not always the parents who are doing the stuffing; sometimes they try to reduce the intake of food, but children are out of the home so often and with money in their pocket that even if supervision is attempted it is sabotaged by the child's own behaviour.
Overeating is sometimes a psychological compensation. A child is too young to know what the problem is. It could be a feeling of being unwanted; it could be tensions manifested between the parents. But I do think that if a child is overeating a series of meetings with a sympathetic psychiatrist or psychologist might get to the root of the problem. From that moment the trip to a solution should not be too long.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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unsui
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Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 17:43] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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All I can see is a bigot spewing forth hate. Who or what is Lew Rockwell?
Ah, never mind. Found him in Wikipedia. A self styled Libertarian and orator.
[Updated on: Tue, 02 September 2008 16:15]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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John..
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: March 2008
Messages: 56
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Hi Timmy,
I agree with all of what you have said, but I do believe that all children are abused.
If you argue as parents in front of your children that is mental abuse and the child becomes confused with mixed emotions.
Yes children are abused in other ways by overfeeding, The degree of abuse is far greater in the poorer areas of the UK.
Some parents lack the skills because they have no morals and should not be allowed to bring up children.
Some children watch there parents take drugs, so they are growing up on a slippery slope already.
And yes its not difficult to see the kids that will be criminals, its not there fault but the fault of there dis functional parents.
Not to mention alcoholic parents, say no more.
Finally our children are subjected to all the rubbish in processed food, its well known what E numbers do to the mental state of children, but hey don't rock the boat of big business.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I agree. We have several generations of feckless parents who train fecklessness into their kids. The old extended family exists very differently nowadays in that folk live in the next street rather than in the same house, and the good example of the old folk is no longer seen so easily.
But then even a decent example (the builder, who is just half competent as a person but is entirely decent) has a son who is on cocaine. He is shocked by it but has no way of preventing the son's drug use.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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There actually was a case (I forget which state)where a child was taken away from the parent because the child was obese. The mother had been ordered to put the child on a diet and after a while it was found that the child had gained weight. The child was removed from the parent and placed in protective custody where she began to loose weight.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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There is a thing called Munchousins Syndrome (I probably didnt spell that right). This is a condition where the parent forces an illness on a child so she has to take care of the child and is seen as the wonderful parent who has given up everything to be the caregiver for the child. Some children have actually died as a result of this. The parents would give the child small doses of poison to mimick sickness.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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One doesn't assume that an overweight child is necessarily the result of excessive and inappropriate feeding, nor a lack of exercise!
Many are. Some aren't. Amongst whom is my now 12 year old niece, who has always been large for her age in height, and also by most definitions very considerably overweight (since well before starting primary school). I recently spent a fortnight on holiday with them, and have a pretty good idea about her diet. Although she weighs nearly as much as I do, she eats far less, and as a vegetarian has a better-balanced diet than I do. She drinks a fair bit of fizzy stuff, but it's all low-calorie (as opposed to my dozen cups of coffee a day with 2 sugars in each!) She's also much more physically active than I am - attending weekly swimming classes and dance classes, etc.
So why is she so big? I've no idea, except that her mother is very similar in body shape ...
To be honest, I'd be very annoyed if anyone made remarks about her size - at the moment she's a confident happy well-adjusted child, who has coped well with the difficulties of being the first to hit puberty in her year-group by the best part of a year, though others have now started to catch up. This would have been FAR harder to handle if she'd been criticised by adults for her body-shape in primary school, I'm sure.
She's well aware of healthy eating issues (home-produced organic eggs, vegetables, and occasionally honey!), and if she chooses to extend that to sensibly-controlled calorie reduction for her own reasons she'll have my support. But it would be grossly wrong for any well-meaning outsider to bully her into it!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Some combinations of parent and child just don't work!
My father was - by most standards - a good parent. Of three kids, I was the only one he was physically and emotionally abusive to - and it was (as I now understand) because I by nature from a very early age (certainly pre-school) was a kind of person that he is completely incapable of understanding.
Yup, I became a fairly wild teenager. Nowadays, I'd probably have a string of ASBOs! Partly because of the abuse, but I think mainly because it has always been in my nature *never* to take anyone's unsupported say-so for anything. If there is no evidence, or what I'm told is clearly contrary to established fact, I won't do (or refrain from doing, as the case may be) *anything* just because someone tells me to. So, obviously-prejudiced and unsupported dire warnings about "drugs" and "bad company" (suspected homosexuals) were if anything counter-productive ...
I think we blame both parents and kids too much - the institution of the nuclear family is just not suitable in cases where there's a major incompatibility (a lack of ability to understand, not a lack of willingness to try to understand).
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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It's well known that peoples' metabolisms can vary greatly. How many of us know skinny people that seem to eat all they want without any effects? But the opposite is true as well and I think your niece fits into that category. But as long as she's eating a healthy diet, sensible portions and getting exercise, I don't see a problem. Well, I do, I guess... other people and their perceptions of her is the problem. We just automatically assume that if someone isn't slim, svelte and contoured then they are probably gluttons and lazy. We need to allow for different body types.
But what I think Timmy is talking about is kids that are morbidly obese. If they also have some glandular or metabolic problem, it should be discovered and treated where possible. But there both parent and child need training in proper nutrition at the least.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I describe myself as "classically liberal" which is akin to libertarianism.
One area where I feel quite distant from other libertarians, however is their treatment of children. A lot of libertarians don't seem to mind the idea of parental ownership of children, or the idea that parents should be making decisions for their children. This repulses me. Why should human rights only be granted at a certain age? It is hard to determine where there line is, though. Governments and parents both have to have control children at a certain point. A 2-year-old is hardly capable of looking after themselves in a rational manner, nor reporting abuse when it occurs. But there is a tendency to give governments AND parents too much power in dealing with children, to "protect" them. When a government tries to protect adults, libertarians accuse it of being a "nanny state". Yet it is okay for a parent to do that? I don't think a 16-year-old needs a nanny.
Bringing it back to your question- is it right for a government to step in and stop a child from becoming obese? In some cases, I'd say yes. I don't believe a parent has a right to control their child, but allowing them control usually provides a utilitarian outcome. Government "meddling" in parenting also can provide a utilitarian outcome. Given "rights" aren't relevant in the case of children than need protection, surely the most utilitarian path should be followed? The rights of the parent AS a parent, aren't relevant in my mind...
Of course, I don't think most fat kids are being abused. Any more than most lazy kids with lazy parents are being abused. But being obese can be a sign of neglectful parents and neglect is a form of abuse. If there are other signs of neglect then it should be used along with the other evidence. But no-one has a perfect upbringing. Fat kids might have problems because they are fat, but kids that don't have parents teaching them how to manage money have just as many problems because of that upbringing. We can't make parenting perfect, all we can do is stop abuse and neglect.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Most assuredly the morbidly obese. "Morbidly" means, broadly, "likely to die from it".
I'm not speaking of tubby, puppy fat, plump. I'm talking about the kids who are already E N O R M O U S and whose size at even 6 years old already limits movement of limbs, not just interferes with running and playing through shortness of breath.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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In Slovakia, it is just the same. You may be accused of you don't report such thing. I don't want to excuse myself, but my situation is different... I hadn't realised the signs at that time, only later I found out when watching a TV discussion with psychologists on child abuse, that I already had seen those signals several years prior to the TV show. If something like that happened nowadays, I would probably tell head coach about my suspicions, but pointing a finger at someone who turns out to be innocent is perilous, due to the fact that even unproved suspicion may harm the person psychically and give them label "child molester" or something (most of you hate labels, would you like to be called child molester if the only thing you did would be looking at a cute young guy???).
As to John mentioning the Es in food. Es are just codes for chemicals. Some of them are dangerous (and banned), some are harmless, many are useful. I can't remember the numbers properly, but for example one of those Es is ascorbic acid, that is vitamin C.
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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A morbidly obese child seems to be a victim of neglect. Neglect is a type of abuse. With such a child there would usually be other signs of neglectful abuse, as well.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Yes, Roger,
It's full name in Müchhausen's syndrome by proxy. The proxy is the child and the adult makes the child ill to draw attention to the adult's wonderful characters. It's not usually so blatant as poison though, the adult will make the child ill by caring too much! (too much of a particular food or salt or too many clothes on a hot day or do psychological damage by the way they talk to them).
I had a friend whose wife did this to their daughter.
As you can imagine it is very hard to persuade anyone that it is going on because even if social services visit there is just no evidence that an outsider can see of anything untoward.
Love,
Anthony
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Dear NW,
You wrote "it has always been in my nature *never* to take anyone's unsupported say-so for anything. If there is no evidence, or what I'm told is clearly contrary to established fact, I won't do (or refrain from doing, as the case may be) *anything* just because someone tells me to. "
I could have written that about me, but because I was a good boy I did not rebel or try to change things, but just accepted my lot (which wasn't very hard to do - I was well looked after) and toed the line. It helped enormously that I didn't discover my sexuality until after I had left school, so there were never any fights about that! I expect they knew, later on, but they didn't know what do do and anyway found sex impossible to talk about so never spoke about it.
But everyone may have the problem of how to get on with their parents and how they handle that is just as important as how their parents handle them. Certainly boys are independent thinkers from about the age of puberty - I guess girls are about the same but I'm not a girl.
And so everyone solves that problem somehow or other and reaches an accommodation with their parents which may be comfortable, as mine was, or uncomfortable as I guess yours was. And comfortable or uncomfortable the long term result may be similar - I think I agree with what you post on here more than I do with anyone else.
Love,
Anthony
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Actually I was at supper last night and it just dawned on me that it was Munchausens syndrome by proxy.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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It is the illness of the developped world that parents often don't have time for their children (what rubbish!!!). Ad 1: Why do they have children if they don't have time for them?. Ad 2: Is half an hour a day enough? Well, yes, if it is not solely dedicated to "Tidy up your bedroom! Why are your grades so bad?!" and such. Half an hour (on average) is enough for reasonable discussion about kid's and parent's feelings, opinions and attitudes. It is enough to build trust between the members of the family. Very often one or more pleasant sentence make someone's day brighter... Is it so hard???
Neglect in the means of "I don't have time for my kids" leads to mistrust, looking for peers who may be a bad influence, may also lead to protest in the means of alcohol, drugs or overeating... Parents don't have time to cook at home and kids simply will eat food that they like (burgers, pizza, hot/dogs splashed with coke and so...). Is this neglect or just the development of the modern society?
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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Yes, NW,
Agreed. I, too, have a grandchild who is overweight. Her parents do their best to persuade her to eat less and they do eat healthy. She has other health issues - she is asthmatic. But at eight years old she stood on the stage in front of an audience of 600 and played a violin duo for five minutes. You could see her savouring the applause.
You really need to know a lot about people before you dare criticise, don't you?
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I really am not talking about chubby. I am portly myself. I am talking about giganormously fat, fat that takes determination to create and maintain. So fat that teasing doesn't happen because they are too fat to tease and the other kids are sorry for them.
A plump child is a plump child. Decent quality of food and a reason - a fun reason - to take exercise will handle that if the child wants to. A morbidly obese child is a very different matter.
I know one mother whose kids were plump. She never mentioned it to them, nor did she put them on a diet. Instead she created fun for them that involved the active things that kids love. Simple active things: a bike ride to the shop to get her something she forgot, a ball to kick about, limited console time. Her kids never noticed but they became slim. Won't work for everyone.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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No Message Body
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Ah, the Fat Owl of The Remove!
But no. Bunter could run, albeit briefly! And Bunter was a glutton. Gluttony was probably not forced upon him, especially at the boarding prep school of the day.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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No, I rather think this is nearer the mark: an 8 month old baby.
J F R
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The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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