A Place of Safety
I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love.
Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving!
We have had to make new membership moderated to combat the huge number of spammers who register
















You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Sarah Palin
Sarah Palin  [message #52890] Wed, 03 September 2008 11:50 Go to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

Likes it here
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



Recently on our TV (news) there was this news that she had been chosen to be a vice president for McCain. She was described as very lawful, very conservative mother of 5 kids. Is she another blind homophobist believing in God so much that she cannot see that (according to Bible) all people are God's creatures ???

Just asking the Americans. I'd like to know your opinion.

Marek

[Updated on: Wed, 03 September 2008 13:02]




It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52894 is a reply to message #52890] Wed, 03 September 2008 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JFR is currently offline  JFR

On fire!
Location: Israel
Registered: October 2004
Messages: 1367



Mark wrote:

Just asking the Americans. I'd like to know your opinion.

I am not now, never have been and have no intention of being a US citizen. So I suppose that I should not rsepond to you. But I think that an American presidential election is meaningful for more than just the American people: surely its outcome at least should be of concern for all people living in a western democracy.

I am now really frightened to think that there is a chance that an aging man, suffering from cancer, might become president of the USA. Should he not be able to serve his full term the presidency would go to a youngish woman with little administrative experience. (Governing the state of Alaska can hardly be compared with the experience needed for being the captain of the western world in dangerous times.)

However, she is soon to be a grandmother. That's great. But how does the fact that her daughter, aged 17, is going to be an unmarried mother square with Conservative Christian values and home education? I heard today that the pastor of her church made some blatantly antisemitic remarks from the pulpit when she was present and she said nothing, even afterwards.

Come on, great American people! Remember you are not only voting for your own country. The whole free world depends on your vote. It was your vote that gave us Shrub. Repent now and promise never to do it again! Smile

Rant over. Stepping off my soapbox, apologetically.

J F R

[Updated on: Wed, 03 September 2008 13:30]




The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52895 is a reply to message #52894] Wed, 03 September 2008 14:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

Likes it here
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



You know, my friends, or rather, people I know and value their opinion, are united believing that the Democrats should win the White House this time. There are remarkable BUTs here, however...
We don't live in US, thus cannot vote.
We don't live in US so we cannot know all the relationships in the background.
We don't live in US, so American news are not that important in Slovakia, only the most world-influencing news find way here to Central Europe.

These are the reasons why I asked someone who is familiar with the situation and more experienced than me.
From my point of view, according to what I know and believe in, I would choose Obama.

Thx JFR for opinion

Marek

[Updated on: Wed, 03 September 2008 14:45]




It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52896 is a reply to message #52890] Wed, 03 September 2008 15:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JimB is currently offline  JimB

Likes it here

Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349



The religious right seems to be supporting her because of her strong anti-abortion views. Their (religious right) views regarding religion and abortion are such that they are more important to them than whether or not the person is qualified. It is still to early to tell how the general population will react to this selection.

What I know so far is: She is unqualified; she is extremely conservative; she is anti-abortion; she is very religious. There are some Republicans who will find her the right choice, but I'm not sure about mainstream Republicans who felt betrayed by Bush. I don't believe that she will help attract right leaning Democrats or Independents, which is what McCain needs to win.

It is interesting to question the reasoning behind this selection. If he simply wanted a woman there certainly are some available who are more qualified. If he wanted someone who would attract the Religious Right there are many who would do so. If he wanted a figure-head female that would allow his wife to remain in the background, both during the campaign and during his presidency, then he likely got just what he wanted.

By the way, JFR, no need to apologize. You are correct, the US election has far reaching impact and you have every right to express your opinion.

JimB
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52897 is a reply to message #52895] Wed, 03 September 2008 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Dear Marek,

I'm another one giving my opinion when I'm not entitled 'cos I'm not a US citizen. I would have thought it a great failure of mine if either of my daughters got pregnant unintentionally, (and we allowed them to sleep with their boyfriends in our house from the age of sixteen!) but I don't know enough about Bristol (I believe that's her name - but whether after the city where I live or some other reason) to be able to tell. She is seventeen so it looks like a disaster and maybe a consequence of the 'Just say no' school of sex education.

But I doubt whether an intolerant bigoted Christian woman is going to be any better than an incompetent venial malaprop in the pockets of the oil companies (which is where Alaska starts, isn't it?).

But I'm an old cynic and think anyone wishing to be President ought to be disqualified by that wish.

Love,
Anthony
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52898 is a reply to message #52894] Wed, 03 September 2008 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich

Really getting into it
Location: Seaofstars
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 563



LOL Hey JFR, I never voted for shrub and there is still a lot of debate in this country whether the elections were indeed above board seeing that most or all of the voting machines are easily hackable, and controlled in key places by republicans!

I do agree with your speaking out and indeed all the people of the world, they have just as much at stake as we do.

This being said I believe simply that if the election was to go to the Republicans, LOL well "Stupid is as stupid does!"

Another thing we have to get over is there doesn't really seem to be anything remotely Christian about conservative Christians except their clamming the name!!!! >Sad

[Updated on: Wed, 03 September 2008 20:41]




People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52901 is a reply to message #52890] Wed, 03 September 2008 17:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Roger is currently offline  Roger

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: February 2007
Messages: 522



Mark I do live in the US and I do have an opinion. If McCain wins, the US and Europe are in for a bad time. McCain is just another Shrub in sheeps clothing. The Republicans have lied and twisted things around to fit their needs and in the process they have done great harm to the party. The Christian right feels betrayed by Shrub and they wont get any better in McCain. To be absolutely honest I cannot find anyone who voted for Bush. Isnt that kind of odd? Of course I wasnt thrilled with Gore. Gore is a bit off center mentaly and somewhat of a lier. I really liked Obama's speech. He spoke to the common man and talked about issues that concerned the middle and lower classes and not the filthy rich.



If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52904 is a reply to message #52897] Wed, 03 September 2008 21:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

On fire!
Location: England
Registered: November 2003
Messages: 1756



Antony wrote:

>…think anyone wishing to be President ought to be disqualified by that wish.<

That idea appeals to me. I wish I'd thought of it first.

Hugs
N



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52906 is a reply to message #52894] Thu, 04 September 2008 01:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
E.J. is currently offline  E.J.

Really getting into it
Location: U.S.
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 565



Adding a few items to the list...

She is a creationist

she supports censorship in libraries

she is presently under investigation for firing a department head who refused to fire her (palin's) ex brother in law.



(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52908 is a reply to message #52897] Thu, 04 September 2008 03:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JFR is currently offline  JFR

On fire!
Location: Israel
Registered: October 2004
Messages: 1367



acam wrote:

I'm an old cynic and think anyone wishing to be President ought to be disqualified by that wish.

Confucius said (and he really did, in the Analects):

He is most fit to govern who would rather be excused.

J F R

(PS I have a memory of the occasion in 1969 when her party forced the premiership on Golda Meir at a party conference. Already an old woman, she was sitting in the audience, clutching her handbag on her lap, looking down and sobbing with real tears, "No! No! No!". Sic transit gloria mundi.)



The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52910 is a reply to message #52890] Thu, 04 September 2008 04:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



I find the VPilf quite appealing. Though being gay, not for physical reasons.

In my opinion Sarah Palin is a libertarian/ classical liberal in conservative clothing. She ticks all the boxes as far as conservatives go, but if you look beyond the veneer she isn't REALLY all she is made out to be.

-She is pro-life yet she has said in the past that she doesn't believe in repealing Roe vs Wade, nor the government making laws in regard to abortion, as far as I'm concerned, any individual is entitled to be pro-life if they don't force that on others.

-She is Christian. Not evangelical, not born-again. She was born Catholic and is now a simple non-denominational Christian. That is a good sign.

-She supports the teaching of creationism, yes. But if you dig a little deeper you find she said she supports the discussion of creationism in class if the topic is raised, not it being added to the curriculum.

-She is opposed to gay marriage, but most of America is. She vetoed a bill banning domestic partnership benefits for gay couples. Essentially she gave equal legal rights to gay couples.

-On war she said, "I'm a mom, and my son is going to get deployed in September, and we better have a real clear plan for this war. And it better not have to do with oil and dependence on foreign energy."

-She has one of the best plans I've seen for NOT having to make invasive trips overseas. Namely she believes in securing America's own energy independence, using Nuclear, Alaskan drilling and clean coal as intermediates until renewable sources are reliable enough.

-She is low on executive experience, yet has much more than Obama, McCain or Biden. She is the only person who has served in an executive position. Obama has a couple of years more experience as a Senator, but that is hardly a wealth of experience compared to Palin.

-She is a reformer, supportive of low tax, and anti-corruption. Obama has been talking about "changing Washington", yet mavericks like McCain and Palin seem better suited to that task.

Rainbows and kittens might shoot out of Obama's arse every time he gives a speech. But I believe Sarah Palin would be one of the best leaders of the free world that we've had in a long time. I was supporting Obama over McCain until Palin was announced. But Palin was not only a great tactical choice, but a great choice for freedom. I could put up with a few years of McCain if it meant a Sarah Palin presidency.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52914 is a reply to message #52890] Thu, 04 September 2008 07:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

Likes it here
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



I like the idea of disqualifying those who wish to become presidents by default. On the other hand, you have to live and let live. You cannot force anyone to serve (I see it as a service to citizens (naive, aren't I???)) this way if they are not willing to. Reminds me of Dumbledore refusing to become a minister of magic... In this case, JFR's quoting of Confucius applies. I eagerly agree with these opinions (Anthony's and JFR's), however, it would bring new major BUTs to the whole process and system of democracy.

To you, Saben, I'm pretty sure that there are pros and cons for each candidate. You seem persuaded about Palin. If McCain becomes president, time will tell, whether your feelings are correct or not. If Obama is elected, Palin is young enough to give him a tough fight in another presidential elections. What do you think?

As to the opinions of all of us. We have to remember, that no one is white and no one is black (in terms of Good and Evil). We all are different shades of grey.

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52915 is a reply to message #52910] Thu, 04 September 2008 07:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Dear Saben,

I'm amazed at what you say. Seriously do you support someone who is:
anti-abortion (even if the pregnancy was the result of rape)
anti gay marriage (and that is NOT 'essentially equal legal rights')
believes in creationism (is this, seriously, not fundamentalism?)
supports a war (which had better not have to do with oil...or in other words it does now and her son may get killed in that cause)

In the words of John McEnroe "you cannot be serious!"

Love,
Anthony
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52916 is a reply to message #52914] Thu, 04 September 2008 07:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Yes, indeed, Marek

There are two reasons to go into public life.

The first which is, in my experience the major motive for the vast majority is because one wants to do good and improve things (of course according to what they think would be an improvement). Nearly every politician I've met has been this kind of person. Of course those that hold profoundly wrong views about what is good (like some of the opinions of Mrs Thatcher) can do great harm if they get into power. Even she did some good things but the really bad thing she did was to make greed respectable and to devalue the professions, particularly the academics and the medics and government civil servants. It is these groups of people who are the most altruistic and least self serving in society - at least in the UK they are.

The second is that one wants to control things to make life better for one's friends or class or other group. These politicians may give the big contracts to their friends, arrange taxes so their friends can avoid paying them and if they are immensely rich their friends are unlikely to be the needy. These people will do ANYTHING to get power and keep it. If they can get the support of the media they can use their vastly greater resources to win elections. It is these people who ought to be disqualified.

But I think in a proper democracy it ought to be the media - the public commentators - who should expose the motives and self serving actions of the power-hungry politicians. Just think Haliburton and ask whether or not there was any sign, ten years ago that Bush would be like that. Of course there was!

But by this analysis I do think that GWB is a pretty dark shade of grey!

Love,
Anthony
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52918 is a reply to message #52916] Thu, 04 September 2008 08:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JFR is currently offline  JFR

On fire!
Location: Israel
Registered: October 2004
Messages: 1367



Anthony,

What about people who want power because they want power?

J F R



The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52919 is a reply to message #52918] Thu, 04 September 2008 10:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

Likes it here
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



You know, JFR, the world was there and it is frightening to even think about it. Yes, there are peolple like that. However, it's nearly impossible to determine them in the early stages of their political careers...
And, Anthony, GWB seems dark to the rest of the world (at least in some cases)... Maybe that's the reason why people I know would choose Obama. Whichever scenario comes to pass, I hope there will be lower amount of so called "police actions", that US government will focus on domestic problems and economy, and, as far as I know, this is the main thing US citizens expect... Correct me, if I'm talking astray, please.

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52925 is a reply to message #52915] Thu, 04 September 2008 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



I believe people have the right to believe whatever they want, even if what they believe is totally crazy. I simply believe that the government has no right to dictate those beliefs to anyone. Governments should not ban religion, nor ideas I disagree with. Not ideas I agree with.

She is anti-abortion personally, if you think she wants to ban abortion- find me a quote and I'll believe it. From what I gather her opposition to abortion is her personal belief.

Find me a quote that says she believes in creationism. I have only read that she believes schools should be able to discuss both creationism and evolution.

She believes in finishing a war that was started rather than withdrawing. She believes the resolution to the war should be based on tactics and victory, rather than resources.

She is anti-gay marriage. I am anti-gay marriage. I believe that religion has a right to call their ceremony marriage and that "civil unions" are adequate for gays and atheists alike. Let the Christians keep their word, as long as we get the same rights. But make it about religion, not sexuality.

There's a lot floating around about her, but I've watched her speak and I've read quotes from her. If there's more to it, I'm happy to revise my opinion. But I'll want quotes or youtube links. Not hearsay. Until I'm given more than hearsay I'll remain supportive of her.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52927 is a reply to message #52925] Thu, 04 September 2008 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

Likes it here
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



Saben wrote:
> I believe people have the right to believe whatever they want, even if what they believe is totally crazy. I simply believe that the government has no right to dictate those beliefs to anyone. Governments should not ban religion, nor ideas I disagree with. Not ideas I agree with.

That's it. Usually (I don't say that always) it's the conservatives who try hard to force their beliefs on other people. Most often through religion (I believe that, unfortunately, many priest in Catholic Church do this). I hope (and wish) that your attitudes would turn out right.
The ultimate fact for me is, that whoever wins, the world needs as much peace as it gets, and as little American (Russian, Chinese etc.) intruding into other countries' politics as well.

For the whole world's sake, I hope you are not mistaken...

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52931 is a reply to message #52925] Thu, 04 September 2008 12:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JFR is currently offline  JFR

On fire!
Location: Israel
Registered: October 2004
Messages: 1367



Saben wrote:

She is anti-abortion personally, if you think she wants to ban abortion- find me a quote and I'll believe it. From what I gather her opposition to abortion is her personal belief. Find me a quote that says she believes in creationism... If there's more to it, I'm happy to revise my opinion. But I'll want quotes or youtube links. Not hearsay. Until I'm given more than hearsay I'll remain supportive of her.

Maybe this link will help. I really don't know anything about the standard of reliability of various US newspapers.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/09/03/MN0012MQNM.DTL

JFR



The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52932 is a reply to message #52916] Thu, 04 September 2008 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

On fire!
Location: England
Registered: November 2003
Messages: 1756



Anthony, I congratulate you on being so altruistic. Having watched the antics of our national and local politicians, particularly in voting themselves pay rises, gold plated pensions and extreme expenses which are denied to us ordinary mortals, I had come to the conclusion that 90% of them were in politics to line their own pockets.

Hugs
N



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52933 is a reply to message #52914] Thu, 04 September 2008 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



I'm happy to revise my opinion of Palin. She might be as much of a conservative nut as everyone thinks. But she isn't based on what I've seen/ read.

Obama, on the other hand, is a socialist nut. Happy to engage in social engineering to try and improve society. I believe society has to improve itself. Anyone, no matter how well intentioned, trying to impose their vision of society onto a nation is bound to fail. That's why I prefer a leader that talks about liberty to one that talks about change.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52934 is a reply to message #52915] Thu, 04 September 2008 12:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

On fire!
Location: England
Registered: November 2003
Messages: 1756



Saben, congratulations on speaking out on behalf of Sarah Palin.

Politically I try to remain neutral on this board, particularly in respect of other countries, although I did utter the opinion some time ago that H Clinton would have been a disaster in the White House. It is clear that the majority of contributors are pro Democrat. I think you might have provoked an interesting discussion.

Hugs
N



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52935 is a reply to message #52933] Thu, 04 September 2008 12:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

Likes it here
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



The best way to improve economy is to let it live its way. Government restrictions never did any good for economy. In my opinion, the same goes for society. Let the society develop. Yes, there are rules needed. Personally, I believe there is only one golden rule of life:

Do whatever you want under the only condition: you liberty and freedom of choice ends where other person's freedom and liberty starts.

I hope the idea is clear.

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52937 is a reply to message #52910] Thu, 04 September 2008 12:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Benji is currently offline  Benji

Likes it here
Location: USA
Registered: August 2007
Messages: 297



Well said Saben!

She more of a maverick and a moderate than a conservative. The right doesn't like her, I find that appealing all by itself.
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52938 is a reply to message #52931] Thu, 04 September 2008 12:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



JFR that link still doesn't say whether or not she believes in a ban on abortion or not. It only references what she'd do in the case of her daughter. Having a personal belief against abortion is a matter of personal opinion and belief- "I personally believe life begins at conception and personally would never have an abortion and I'd be opposed to family/ friends having an abortion" is very different to "I believe that life begins and conception and I intend on forcing that belief on every mother by banning abortion".

I honestly don't know when life starts, I believe each mother should make up their own decision regarding the morality of their actions. Others may think that life begins at conception, in which case abortion IS morally equivalent to murder and they'll vehemently insist that their friends, family and associates refrain from having an abortion. What matters is whether they try and enshrine that belief in law. To do such does not allow freedom of religion or freedom of belief.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52939 is a reply to message #52935] Thu, 04 September 2008 12:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



I totally agree with that sentiment. It is how I evaluate the candidates.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52940 is a reply to message #52934] Thu, 04 September 2008 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



People have a tendency to view things through a left/right spectrum where left= socialist economics and social freedom; right= capitalist economics and social conservatism. It is hard to like the "right" when viewed through such a dichotomy. I was a strong believer in the "left" for a long time because I believed in gay rights, liberalised drug laws, non-interventionist foreign policy and a politics of live and let live.

Then I saw Ron Paul- the anti-war Republican. I saw someone that was a strong believer in individual rights. And I was sold. I have always valued freedom above all, but I thought that socialism was a philosophy of freedom. I've since come to realise that socialism is as much about social engineering as Christian conservatism is, the only difference being socialism was a type of social engineering I saw as favourable. If one truly believes in freedom than neither the traditional left, or the traditional right are adequate. "Classical liberalism", "libertarianism" is the philosophy of social and economic freedom. Universal freedom if you will. And it usually works. If everyone works to achieve what they as individuals want, the entire society is achieving their highest collective want. Not to mention it is the only philosophy that works regardless of whether people are selfish or selfless. Socialism only works if people are selfless, otherwise the entire system breaks down.

A lot of Republicans are "right" but even more Democrats are "left". There are a few Republicans remaining that believe in the Constitutions, Republicans that are part of the Liberty Caucus that believe in freedom. If you believe in freedom, don't just blindly follow the left. There are often people on the "right" that are even more in favour of freedom.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52941 is a reply to message #52940] Thu, 04 September 2008 13:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

Likes it here
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



Have you ever heard of national socialism (NS)?
Nazional Sozialistisch Deutsche Arbeit Partei means National Socialist German Labour Party. Their leader was Adolf Hitler. Party which united the Aryan philosophy with popular politics for the masses. Don't get me wrong, but it's you who divided the spectrum to left and right in this discussion. Recently there was a rather right government in Slovakia, and many attitudes were liberal...

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52945 is a reply to message #52941] Thu, 04 September 2008 13:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Actually I see National Socialism as the polar opposite to liberty. National Socialists believe in government control of society and economics.

In my mind there isn't one scale, but 2 (and possibly more): Economy and Social. Roughly I see it as following (of course even the "left" is broadly supportive of capitalism today and even the "right" supports some government handouts, often to rural groups)

Left (called "liberals" in America):
Social Freedom |--*---------| Social Control
Economic Freedom |---------*--| Economic Control

Right (called conservatives, or "neo-liberals"):
Social Freedom |---------*--| Social Control
Economic Freedom |--*---------| Economic Control

Libertarian/ Classical Liberal:
Social Freedom |-*----------| Social Control
Economic Freedom |-*----------| Economic Control

Nazi Socialism/ Russian Communism:
Social Freedom |----------*-| Social Control
Economic Freedom |----------*-| Economic Control



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52947 is a reply to message #52945] Thu, 04 September 2008 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Oh and some may find it hard to believe that I've grouped Communism and Nazism together. They are often seen as the opposite on the left/ right scale. But while communism grew organically from the workers and Nazism grew top-down from the elite, eventually they had the same purpose and same goals- to have the government controlling individual choice.

In Nazism one person controlled the government. In communism one party controlled the government. But the outcome was the same.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Sarah Palin  [message #52948 is a reply to message #52945] Thu, 04 September 2008 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

Likes it here
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



Definitely not bad a chart. Are you libertarian (classic liberal)?
That's probably, how it should be. Main rules set by state, but as little impacts into both economy and society as possible.

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Libertarianism (the role of government)  [message #52950 is a reply to message #52948] Thu, 04 September 2008 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Yes, that's my political philosophy.

A "pure" libertarian is an "anarcho-capitalist" who believes in no government.

I'm not "pure" in that sense. I believe the government should run the police force, defence force and emergency response (fire brigade). I also think that a minimal welfare system covering the truly needy is needed, as is funding of education and health (but I am opposed to government control of education or health). The government should also set some minimal laws regarding murder, theft, assault, etc. It should have the power to enforce contracts and a judicial system where people can sue for negatives enacted upon them by another (if a company is negligent or dumps chemical waste in a river that passes through my property).

Beyond that... I can't think of much.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Saw Palin speak. She remind me of someone  [message #52960 is a reply to message #52890] Thu, 04 September 2008 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



She seems to be back in the 1950s. She wouldn't be out of place on The Lucy Show. She's a powerful speaker, but she reminds me of someone.

Compare her with this chat show host: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pblK8E85SS8

That's whom she reminds me of.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Libertarianism (Barry Goldwater)  [message #52963 is a reply to message #52950] Fri, 05 September 2008 08:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yusime is currently offline  yusime

Likes it here
Location: United States
Registered: April 2008
Messages: 195



I've mentioned him before now. When I didn't know anything about him I decided to look him up and I found more of my beliefs correspond to his arguments about life than any other politician I had ever heard speaking before in my life. My only personal disagreement with McCain and Palin is that they must rely on the religious radicals in order to get elected to public office. If McCain would denounce religious interference in government and politics I would support him. I am even skeptical of Obama because of his use of religion in an attempt to get people to vote for him. I really consider such behavior to be unworthy of politics and governing in the United States!

“It's wonderful that we have so many religious people in our party, ... They need to leave their theologies in their churches.”
Barry Goldwater quote

“The rights that we have under the Constitution covers anything we want to do, as long as its not harmful. I can't see any way in the world that being a gay can cause damage to somebody else,”
Barry Goldwater

"Politics [is] the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order."
Barry Goldwater

Barry Goldwater
Now those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth, and let me remind you they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyranny. Absolute power does corrupt, and those who seek it must be suspect and must be opposed. Their mistaken course stems from false notions of equality, ladies and gentlemen. Equality, rightly understood, as our founding fathers understood it, leads to liberty and to the emancipation of creative differences. Wrongly understood, as it has been so tragically in our time, it leads first to conformity and then to despotism.

Acceptance Speech as the 1964 Republican Presidential candidate.



He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake since for him a spinal cord would suffice. Albert Einstein
Re: Libertarianism (Barry Goldwater)  [message #52969 is a reply to message #52963] Fri, 05 September 2008 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Indeed, Barry Goldwater is definitely one of the more respectable candidates a major party has stood for President since WWII. It's a pity that Johnson's victory was virtually guaranteed after the JFK assassination.

It's also a pity that almost universally across the world the men of the left have ended up allied with the middle and working class, forcing libertarians into an alliance with the Christian conservatives. There was a time when progressive socialists and classical liberals were a lot more closely allied against conservative Christians and working class conservatives alike.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Libertarianism (Barry Goldwater)  [message #52970 is a reply to message #52969] Fri, 05 September 2008 10:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yusime is currently offline  yusime

Likes it here
Location: United States
Registered: April 2008
Messages: 195



We have a lot of blame to place on the radical anti-communism stance of "Conservatives" in that regard. Socialism should be used as a last resort and only if absolutely necessary as a mater of public policy. The American people were terrified that Barry Goldwater would start a nuclear war (understandable) or use nuclear missiles against Vietnam that also helped Johnson win the election. I find I personally dislike the religious radicals less than any other group in American politics right now. As far as how much of a supporter of Barry Goldwater I really am my favorite Supreme Court Justice is Anthony Kennedy even if I have occasionally disagreed with some of his decisions and arguments.Smile



He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake since for him a spinal cord would suffice. Albert Einstein
Re: Libertarianism (Barry Goldwater)  [message #52974 is a reply to message #52970] Fri, 05 September 2008 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich

Really getting into it
Location: Seaofstars
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 563



LOL Yikes!Surprised



People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
Re: Libertarianism (Barry Goldwater)  [message #52976 is a reply to message #52974] Fri, 05 September 2008 20:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yusime is currently offline  yusime

Likes it here
Location: United States
Registered: April 2008
Messages: 195



I despise what the religious radicals want but...

I'd rather have a self-destructive government than a government that does nothing but waste time for 2 full years! Democrats have the house, Republicans have the presidency, the Senate is deadlocked, the Supreme Court is an evenly divided right-wing political branch with a social-liberal side on important issues. AND the majority of people in Washington are lawyers with a political agenda. I would like for them to do something important before the presidential and congressional elections almost anything is better than nothing. The religious radicals will not retake the House, unlikely to retake the Senate, never know what the Presidential election will reveal. Government is only a problem when it can not do anything. It doesn't matter how annoying it can get when the wrong people are in power at least they do something. Even if I don't happen to like what they stand for when they are in power. We have not really had a government for the last 2 years the politicians have just been in DC debating issues that they can not deal with unilaterally so government has been useless. Even though the religious radicals are to blame for what is wrong with politics and America today. Some kind of result is better than nothing at all.



He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake since for him a spinal cord would suffice. Albert Einstein
Re: Libertarianism (Barry Goldwater)  [message #52978 is a reply to message #52976] Fri, 05 September 2008 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich

Really getting into it
Location: Seaofstars
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 563



I don't have a problem with their doing nothing. Looking back on the eight years I'm hoping that they would all be held accountable for war crimes committed in the name of the people of the United States! That includes the spineless Democrats that didn't stand up to the nonsense that's been foisted on us. Not to mention all the other crap!

Libertarians are just more of the same, Neocons, only a good bit dimmer than the ones in power right now.

Sheesh I looking around I just have to think we are getting just what we deserve...

McCain & Palin, OMG what a nightmare. More neocan BS being blow up the asses. of the no brain religionists... When are they gonna get it?

Obama & Biden, One can only hope. The Dems haven't shown much spine over the past couple of years, maybe just counting time till they have firmer control. I'm really not sure. If not I do think it's a matter of the dems. saying to the reps. "Look we won't F*ck with you cuz we aren't going to undo the damage you've done to the constitution cuz we want to take advantage of these schlemiels too."

I'd say hangem all from the cherry trees on the mall if it wouldn't cause a whole lot more bloodshed than it would be worth. (Watch me get in trouble for taking that little freedom, I could be by law arrested for saying that and sent to guantanamo!)The point is it is not the people in control anymore .

Ya know it's one thing to be ask to bend over and asked to take one for the team, I just wonder how long it's gonna take before the people of this nation realize they're being asked to bend over and be the full time bitch of a bunch of suits!

OK my insane rant over, as you were, carry on.

Peace, LOve you all
::-)

[Updated on: Fri, 05 September 2008 22:51]




People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
Re: Libertarianism (Barry Goldwater)  [message #52982 is a reply to message #52976] Sat, 06 September 2008 05:47 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



To be honest I'm happy with a government doing nothing. That is the best action a government can take.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Previous Topic: Trilateralist commission?
Next Topic: Or then perhaps not........
Goto Forum: