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Re: Punctuality  [message #54008 is a reply to message #54007] Fri, 10 October 2008 02:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



I can't stand being early. Nothing frustrates me more than the feeling of "lost time". I aim to be exactly on time. I just often fall short. I don't like waiting much either. At least not for business things.

At a restaurant it's fine, part of the experience of dining is being able to relax and take ones time. As long as the food is served and I'm home before it's time for bed I'm content to have spent a night out. More frustrating to me is how my boyfriend stands up to leave almost the second he's done eating- even more frustrating when I haven't even finished!



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Punctuality  [message #54018 is a reply to message #54008] Fri, 10 October 2008 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



If you "are to be exactly on time" and yet "just often fall short" then you apparently have little conception of what it means to be on time....

This shortcoming means that you think little of those who's appointments you are late for.

Your cavilier attitude to that degree of rudeness means that you consider your impolitness to be more important than the time you are causing others to waste because of you.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Punctuality  [message #54019 is a reply to message #54018] Fri, 10 October 2008 10:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

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Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



I think I agree with you, Marc, although you may have written it less bluntly. I can see Saben's point, because some of my friends have the same or similar attitude, but being on time is important for many people, including me.... Therefore, for those latecomers we (with my other friends) made up a rule that if they were late they would pay for beer or soda or whatever. Try it, Saben. Being punished financially for being late (of course, when there's no accident or car crash or anything on the way that you cannot influence...) may help you.

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Re: Punctuality  [message #54021 is a reply to message #54019] Fri, 10 October 2008 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



My lateness seldom impacts others. I'm not involved with anything where people are waiting for me.

My Uni classes start regardless of what time I arrive and social gatherings with the advent of the mobile phone rarely have an exact time, it's just "I'll call you when I get there". So I don't feel I'm putting anyone out, which makes me think the "rude" argument doesn't really hold much water. For anything important (interviews, etc) I'm paranoid enough that I'm usually on time.

But even when I'm not bothering others, I don't like being late because I miss things. I miss parts of my class, for example. That's what bothers me more so.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Punctuality  [message #54024 is a reply to message #54021] Fri, 10 October 2008 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Now just think for a moment.

You walk into a class room 30 minutes late, interupting the classes train of thought... and that to you is NOT rude?

Now be honest with yourself here....



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Punctuality  [message #54025 is a reply to message #54024] Fri, 10 October 2008 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



I walk into a lecture, most people give me a glance, if that.

There's no interruption, the lecturer doesn't even pause. I use the back doors, of course, so that helps.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Hmmm  [message #54027 is a reply to message #54025] Fri, 10 October 2008 16:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



So the lecturer is there for whose benefit? Ah yes. Yours. You are paying, one way or another, for his or her time.

You use the back doors in order to be unobtrusive, but I have news for you which Marc will confirm. I am often on the platform in lecture theatres. I notice the slightest thing about my audience. I will see you slide in late, hoping not to disturb me. And I will register the habitual nature.

If I happen to mark any of your coursework or other assignments you may be sure that I will be very careful to mark it pedantically and in minute detail. If I can fail you I will fail you, precisely because I have decided that you think I am not worth being on time for.

I'd rather you gave my course a miss instead of proving each time that you despise me. In fact, if I could exclude you from the course for lateness I would do that.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Punctuality  [message #54028 is a reply to message #54025] Fri, 10 October 2008 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



If you believe there is no interuption then I must ask......

Are there any rentals available in your neck of the woods?

I always wanted to live in fantasy land....

If you truely believe the lecturer doesnt even notice..... It is entirely laughable....

I would, after the second tardiness, bar you from entering late.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Punctuality  [message #54029 is a reply to message #54025] Fri, 10 October 2008 20:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Well, Saben,

I think they are being unnecessarily nasty to you. If there are twenty people in the audience it is very different from when there are fifty. When I went to Mr Kneale's lectures there may have been 100 there and someone creeping in late was invisible. The rest of them were looking in bags, dropping pencils, doing a dozen mildly disruptive things which were acceptable. I took notes and I still have them!!!! And, to be frank, I haven't derived much benefit from his efforts or mine. Shame really.

In my day, at Oxford, undergraduates were allowed to learn in whatever way they thought fit. During the whole three years I think I attended only two courses of lectures (a term each). Apart from that I worked from books in libraries and in doing what my tutors recommended. Education as self-fulfilment is much better than education as jumping through hoops.

But then I always was a bit of a maverick!

Love,
Anthony
Re: Punctuality  [message #54031 is a reply to message #54029] Fri, 10 October 2008 20:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



Oxford and Cambridge have a very different teaching methodology, though, from ordinary teaching universities. Lectures tend to be optional extras.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Punctuality  [message #54033 is a reply to message #54029] Fri, 10 October 2008 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



And I think you are out of line here.

As someone that stood at the podium for 26 years I can tell you that mothing escapes the lecturer.

Mose especially a person so rude to enter repetedly late.

Once... things happen, an appology is cheerfully accepted.

Twice... Well, murphy's law prevails.

Three times, Don't think about entering late again.

Anthony, all you are doing is making excuses for bad behavior.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Punctuality  [message #54034 is a reply to message #54028] Sat, 11 October 2008 00:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



So you'd cut a lecture of 200 people down to 50?



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Hmmm  [message #54035 is a reply to message #54027] Sat, 11 October 2008 00:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Messages: 1537



The lecturer is the course coordinator. It's usually my tutors that mark my work.

And you'd exclude 75% of your students? You wouldn't last long before the department fired you...



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Hmmm  [message #54036 is a reply to message #54035] Sat, 11 October 2008 00:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Of course, even if the lecturer were to mark a piece of my work I'm pretty sure they won't have my student number memorised. Considering they rarely even know my name if they WERE to memorise my student number just for the sake of being spiteful then kudos to them.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Punctuality  [message #54037 is a reply to message #54033] Sat, 11 October 2008 00:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Your students would be so rude as to apologise and interrupt the lecturer?

Now THAT would be a way to get noticed and in the lecturer's bad books.

If you are late you are expected to be unobtrusive, not come all the way down the front to apologise!

How many people were in your lectures- because in my lectures where there are 50, 100, sometimes 200 people while it may be noticed- the lecturer does not stop speaking as the person enters.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Punctuality  [message #54038 is a reply to message #54031] Sat, 11 October 2008 00:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



The University of Melbourne (and other Australian Unis) must follow the Oxford model, then.

Lectures are "highly recommended" but anonymous and optional components of the course. There's definitely no interaction in lectures beyond the occasional question asked to the group as a whole, definitely no calling on people by name.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Punctuality  [message #54041 is a reply to message #54037] Sat, 11 October 2008 10:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



DUH!!!

The appology would come after the class had been dismissed.

You realy are thick. You opened this thread asking for advice regsarding habitual lateness. All the advice offered to alleviate the problem you offhandedly blew off, making excuses as to why you will continue to be late.

You can't have it both ways, either you want to improve your rude behavior or you don't.

Either way, I don't much give a damn whether you get to irritate the hell out of your instructors or not.

But if you are not willing to change. why did you bother us by placing the post here in the first place? Was it just one of those computer moments when you couldnt break away to get to class and decided to make an ass of yourself here for a change? Or did you just choose to make an ass out of yourself in general?



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Punctuality  [message #54042 is a reply to message #54041] Sat, 11 October 2008 11:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Actually, Marc, Saben isn't rude. You said he was. Furthermore he isn't thick and perhaps it *was* rude to say he is.

And he didn't 'offhandedly blow off' the advice he was given; he treated it seriously. And, in any case, he doesn't have to take the advice or heed the comments. We're in a conversation here, not an officer to other ranks relationship. We don't give orders, I hope.

What has he done to you to make you get cross with him? Please don't be cross - just accept that there are people whose values, standards of behaviour and so on are different from yours.

Love,
Anthony
Re: Punctuality  [message #54044 is a reply to message #54042] Sat, 11 October 2008 12:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Actually Anthony,

Saben IS rude.

Anyone that is habitually late IS RUDE.

It demonstrates a lack of concern or care for the importance of time for others. Being habitually late gives the late person a false sense of power over those who are left waiting. It demonstrates lack of character and selfishness and in the long term can and often will cause irreparable damage to ones credibility.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Punctuality  [message #54047 is a reply to message #54044] Sat, 11 October 2008 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



I'm with Marc on the rudeness. I'm not with Marc on the "you are thick" part, however. Saben is not thick, but he does sometimes present himself as if he were.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Punctuality  [message #54048 is a reply to message #54047] Sat, 11 October 2008 13:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

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Same here, Timmy,

I agree with Marc in his attitudes, don't agree with the language used...

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Re: Punctuality  [message #54052 is a reply to message #54047] Sat, 11 October 2008 15:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



timmy wrote:
> I'm with Marc on the rudeness. I'm not with Marc on the "you are thick" part, however. Saben is not thick, but he does sometimes present himself as if he were.


Well, I'm sorry, but Saben asked for somewhat of a solution to his dilema and he categorically dismissed each and every possible solution, even to the point of declaring that he doesn't care whether he is rudely late and distracting regarding appointments.

To me that is being intentionaly thick.

After all, if he knew already that he doesn't care one squat if he is rudely late why would he make the origional post?

It just does not make sense. Hense, thickness rules the day.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Punctuality  [message #54054 is a reply to message #53881] Sat, 11 October 2008 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

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Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



I work at a company that provides physical space to internet service providers. Customers book in in advance, and we ensure an employee is on hand to verify their identity and let them into the data centre. If they are visiting a remote site, we have to be there in good time to unlock specially for them.

Some customers are virtually always on time. If not, they will ring ahead and let us know beforehand. If they are two minute later than expected, they will apologise. They leave on time, or if they need to extend their slot they will ask us very nicely and apologetically first.

Some customers are always late. They will book in all day, sometimes from 8 AM, and then not turn up until 11:30 or even lunchtime. Some have been known not even to turn up at all, and only let us know well after their booking has ended. In the meantime, someone has to sit twiddling his thumbs, at the remote site, waiting for them to arrive.

Because we don't charge them extra for access (even out of hours -- its part of the service they pay for) a good number of them appear to think that this is perfectly acceptable business practice and don't even apologise when they finally turn up.

Oddly enough, it is often people from larger companies, companies that you'll have heard of, that do this. People from smaller companies, who are closer to their own customers and know that their business depends on maintaining a good relationship with all potential suppliers, don't so much.

When I was younger (in the sixth form at school -- aged 16/17/18 ) I was often late for lessons. I got away with it because I was struggling to cope with life at the time, and I wasn't penalised as much as I should have been. I was routinely late for lessons and haphazard about handing in work. I didn't care enough about being there on time, but I was under the impression that it was my decision and it didn't affect others. In fact, I can see in retrospect that my behaviour caused a huge amount of inconvenience to the teachers, who went out of their way to put up with me and to try and make sure I caught up and finished the work. It also wasn't fair on my parents, who were paying a lot of money for my education.

I think this attitude persisted until around the beginning of my second year at university. The change in attitude came about at the point I realised that there was no point in staying unless I made a proper stab at it -- I was wasting my own time, my lecturers' time, my own and my parents' money. Why it came so late I'm not sure, and it seems entirely self-evident now (I suspect I was too immature to realise this at 16 or 17 ... I've never been as mature as I like to think I am). I also took a lot of advice from other people to turn me to that viewpoint as well -- I remember long conversations with people from this forum about it. Now it's quite obvious they were right. The older I get, the more embarrassed I get about meeting people I knew back then, in case that's all they remember about me -- my lack of consideration for others.

University really isn't like the real world, in that the link between courtesy, time and money isn't nearly as clear as it is in business. When one is at school or university one feels one has a right to be there, so can do what one wants. Well, to a certain extent, that may be true -- if the state is paying for some or all of it, it seems like 'free money' (although in the UK, at least, at university one usually needs to take out a sizeable loan or put a lot of money in oneself as well). But money doesn't come from nowhere, and unless one is actually getting one's money's worth out of it, one might as well not be there.

David
Re: Punctuality  [message #54063 is a reply to message #54054] Sun, 12 October 2008 02:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Benji is currently offline  Benji

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Interesting, I re-read the first post, and found the initial question was really about being tardy. Now, as I have stated before, I can't stand being 'late' tardy for anything. At the same time I can not endure someone else bestowing their tardiness upon on me, less it be a busy restaurant, in which you can clearly see the empty booth, or an on active employee going about their day without a care of the customer in mind. In this sense I find myself in uncommon ground in agreeing with Marc in respect to others not respecting others.
Re: Punctuality  [message #54065 is a reply to message #54052] Sun, 12 October 2008 08:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Actually, I found Deej's advice quite useful. Or did you miss that part.

Of course I don't find "you're rude" or "you're irresponsible" as constructive advice.

You keep on mentioning me keeping people waiting being rude... I've already mentioned that seldom if ever happens. I expect people to go ahead with an activity without me if I'm late.

But I don't like being late because it means I miss out on an activity. That was the point of the original post. I didn't realise my lateness was so offense to you (and others), though. To be honest I didn't realise it affected you on such a personal level... You'd think I'd slept with your mother or something with the way you're responding..



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Punctuality  [message #54074 is a reply to message #54065] Sun, 12 October 2008 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



It seems your education is ever more going to waste.


Saben wrote:
> Actually, I found Deej's advice quite useful. Or did you miss that part.
>
Seeing as I posted this some hours before David's post, it doesn't take a university student to know that I couldn't read it before it was posted.

> Of course I don't find "you're rude" or "you're irresponsible" as constructive advice.

When the constructive advice was categorically dismissed you ventured into the world of "rude little boy".... Not before.
>
> You keep on mentioning me keeping people waiting being rude... I've already mentioned that seldom if ever happens. I expect people to go ahead with an activity without me if I'm late.

I am sure your comrades will have much better adventures if they go on ahead and leave you to your tardiness.

>
> But I don't like being late because it means I miss out on an activity. That was the point of the original post. I didn't realise my lateness was so offense to you (and others), though. To be honest I didn't realise it affected you on such a personal level... You'd think I'd slept with your mother or something with the way you're responding..

To me personally, it doesnt matter if you are late, early, or otherwise engaged.... I certainly would never be in a situation where I would be put out if you were late for a meeting with me because I would not consider the notion to be in the same place as you at the same time.

As far as my mother is concerned, Go for it if you wish, if you're into necrophylia that is.

Whatever floats your boat......



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Punctuality  [message #54090 is a reply to message #54074] Sun, 12 October 2008 20:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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It seems your education is ever more going to waste.

Mmm... seems I'm pretty much doomed to a life of being pathetic.

Because I've tried to change and I can't.

I guess I'm just so innately rude and irresponsible that I don't even see it as wrong.

I'm fucked.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Punctuality  [message #54091 is a reply to message #54090] Sun, 12 October 2008 21:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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AND beautiful, no doubt!

Love,
Anthony
Re: Punctuality  [message #54092 is a reply to message #54090] Sun, 12 October 2008 21:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

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Only as long as you are willing to give in to it rather than change.

Anyone can change if the want is great enough.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Punctuality  [message #54093 is a reply to message #54090] Sun, 12 October 2008 21:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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I wouldn't fret about it.

"It seems your education is ever more going to waste."

The thing is, no-one knows what part of an education is going to prove valuable, when you do discover what things in life are going to engage your interest and efforts.

I speak as someone with a total of six assorted years undergraduate experience ... and actually for me the single most valuable part of my Uni experience was being a Sabbatical Student Officer running a rather large building and looking after entertainments ... it seems to have been (one way or another) pretty much what I've spent most of my life doing and enjoying. It has - by sheer coincidence - led to odd periods where I could have been considered a conventional "success".

On the other hand, I was rarely late for lectures ... because I rarely bothered going to them at all, at least for certain courses! And before anyone whinges, I should point out that I was self-funded for four of the six years.

Education ISN'T "training" - it's about opening opportunities, building a personal mental toolkit, becoming a fuller human being ... It doesn't strike me that you're doing too badly on that front.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
What's valuable?  [message #54106 is a reply to message #54093] Mon, 13 October 2008 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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Yes, NW I do agree - the bits of one's education that become valuable are really hard to foresee. The bits that are training for a role are, in my opinion those least likely to be valuable long term.

I worked almost all my working life with computers and there were no computers at all during my education. I worked on the first IBM computer in Europe for my first job and have had to retrain myself every five years or so to keep up with a rapidly changing business - and incidentally one where the qualifications are worse than useless. A bit like generals - always preparing to fight the last war or even the last but one. The British Computer Society perpetually asks you to learn and practice the obsolescent. And by the time you have done that it is obsolete. The ACM is no better.

It is interesting how the old subject called 'greats' at Oxford Greek and Latin and philosophy and ancient history is still thought of as one of the best subjects for a degree. You learn almost no skills that are useful in the modern world (except clear thinking and how to express a complex argument) and yet you will find people at the top of almost every profession with this background. The exception is scientists. You cannot leave beginning to learn about science until you leave university if you want to become really good at it. You need the maths and the physics and every year there is more stuff that is both basic and vital to learn.

I really wish I had been able to do more of it - particularly the maths and physics.

The lesson was strongly reinforced when my younger daughter went to university to read physics (having got three 'A's and a 'B' in maths, physics, chemistry and biology) and was told that her whole university career in physics would be held back by not having done 'Further Maths'!

They work them harder nowadays than they did when I was at university!

Love,
Anthony
Re: What's valuable?  [message #54107 is a reply to message #54106] Mon, 13 October 2008 10:58 Go to previous message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

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Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



I'm afraid this branch of the discussion went astray... The need of education, well, yes... but education is not everything when you think about being on time...

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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