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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Point of View - 'Punctuality'
Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54049] Sat, 11 October 2008 14:17 Go to next message
unsui is currently offline  unsui

Likes it here

Registered: September 2007
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[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 17:12]

Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54050 is a reply to message #54049] Sat, 11 October 2008 15:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Nope.......

Late is rude........


It is not a matter of opinion...

It is a fact.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54051 is a reply to message #54049] Sat, 11 October 2008 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Location: UK, in Devon
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Messages: 13739



One does not have a "point of view" over a fact. Punctuality is polite. Lateness, especially habitual lateness, is rude.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54053 is a reply to message #54051] Sat, 11 October 2008 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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Well, if someone is rude to me I may get offended. If someone is late for me I am disappointed and would only be offended if they had done it on purpose. I do have friends who cannot be trusted to turn up on time - they always make too little allowance for traffic or train delays or whatever. I'm sure they don't intend to be rude and I don't take it that way. I am disappointed though. When I hold a meeting I start it on time. I find that many other people may delay the start of a meeting if they know of someone who is coming who hasn't arrived. I am reluctant to do that. Better that one person is ten minutes early and waits, than the other ten people wait for ten minutes.

I don't think it is as black and white as Marc suggests - but in principle I agree with him that deliberately keeping people waiting is rude.

Love,
Anthony
Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54066 is a reply to message #54051] Sun, 12 October 2008 08:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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I didn't realise I had an appointment here...

Or perhaps I don't. In which case I haven't shown rudeness towards anyone here. Which makes me wonder why the attacks are getting so personal. And why rudeness is being tolerated in response.

I guess Marc is allowed to be a prick when you agree with him is he timmy?



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54067 is a reply to message #54066] Sun, 12 October 2008 08:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



Saben wrote:
> I didn't realise I had an appointment here...

You are the one who has asked for thoughts, advice, comments on your punctuality. People are answering your request.
>
> Or perhaps I don't. In which case I haven't shown rudeness towards anyone here. Which makes me wonder why the attacks are getting so personal. And why rudeness is being tolerated in response.

I have, to the best of my knowledge, tolerated no rudeness. Marc chose words and I have disagreed with his choice. Nonetheless you do, sometimes, present yourself as being thick despite assuredly not being. This post is one such presentation.

> I guess Marc is allowed to be a prick when you agree with him is he timmy?

I disagree fundamentally with your choice of the word "be" here. The words you needed were "act like" or "behave like."

In the same way that you are not thick, but sometimes behave as if you are, Marc is not a prick, but sometimes behaves as if he is.

But the answer to your underlying question is no.

Now this is the first post I have seen on the board today. If there is any behaviour lower down that requires censure then it will be censured.

What I find odd is that you have held your punctuality up for comment, that you see comments upon it as requested, and that you do not understand that many people find habitual tardiness at best aggravating and at worst extremely rude.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54071 is a reply to message #54067] Sun, 12 October 2008 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
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I haven't seen many other requests for help treated with the dismissiveness that my topic was.

I asked for suggestions of techniques/ ways to improve my punctuality.

When people have asked "How can I improve my GSA" they aren't greeted with "GSAs are silly ideas" they are greeted with suggestions, or silence, even if people think GSAs are silly ideas.

There is no silver bullet for punctuality, but being told "you're irresponsible" is HARDLY a suggestion or advice. I did not ask for a critique of my behaviour. I refer you to the head of the board:
"I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love. Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving!"



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54072 is a reply to message #54053] Sun, 12 October 2008 10:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
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I think that - as Anthony implies - it's a bit more complicated than "lateness is always rude". Punctuality can be complicated!

To take an extreme example - when my fathers parents came to visit us as a family, they would leave very early and drive the three hours for the journey. Then stop at the end of the road - less than 400 yards away - and wait (often for up to an hour) until the time they'd said they'd arrive at our house. Yes, they were "punctual", but the message it sent out was not one of considering others - it was one of not wanting to spend time with us grandkids, and being unsure of their welcome. It was the kind of observation of the petty forms that is the antithesis of family love ... in short, it was a "rude" punctuality.

In many contexts, especially where it affects several people, I'm a bit of a stickler for punctuality. In the 20+ years that I was actively involved in show business, I never once was late to start a performance (at the traditional three minutes past the advertised time). Usually, members of the audience who were late were kept in the foyer until "a suitable break in the performance". If the show was "French & Saunders", latecomers were actively heckled by the performers. In one musical I did with Mel Smith, the house lights were brought up, followspots trained on the offenders, and either a short (scripted) or long impromptu torrent of abuse followed - which was possibly rude on *both* sides.

I think it's about both parties agreeing their expectations. For one-on-one meetings, I aim to be early, especially if I'm in any sense "hosting" or arranging it. For formal group meetings, the same. But informal working-group meetings in the voluntary sector are rather different: I aim to start on time, but accept that others may drift in later. And I'll often say to people "I'm in the office Tuesday and Wednesday next week - drop in when you get off work".

For meeting friends, again, different rules apply. Some friends hate sitting on their own, so I try hard to get to the meeting place early. Others don't worry about such stuff. And it's different again if we've agreed to meet to go to a movie, where there's a definite expectation that we will actually make the start of the film!

So, back to Saben and his lectures ... It seems to me that lectures are one of those things where different lecturers and different student groups have different expectations. I don't think that there is a "right" and "wrong" here. What's appropriate will vary with the group norm: a lecturer who is always on time, starts promptly, and is on top of the material can usually expect students to be prompt. Not so one of my old Uni lecturers, who frequently kept us hanging around outside the lecture theatre (in the snow!), then often had to leave to photocopy notes before actually starting the lecture about 15 minutes late.

So, I don't think there's anything black and white about punctuality, and an obsessive regard for it can be a sign of a rather inflexible person. But - and it's a BIG but - treating other people with consideration is always appropriate, and punctuality can often be a part of this.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54073 is a reply to message #54071] Sun, 12 October 2008 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



You are mistaking something. The head of the board that you quote is wholly appropriate, and the advice you have been given is from your perspective.

So, to make sure you understand what I have been saying to you, you see "me" at the front of the lecture theatre, speaking as though everything is fine. You need to realise that I see "Yet another damned rude brat, late as usual," and that I find this rude.

Your perspective sees a lecturer, carrying on. What you do not see is what I am going to do about it, precisely because you appear to be late to more of my lectures than you are on time for. I resent your habitual lateness so much that I have discovered your name. I've worked out that you just can't get out of bed in time to get to the lecture hall. So I am going to take all the steps I can to ensure that you fail your degree.

Why?

Because what I see may or may not be the truth, but what I see is yet another rude student that we really do not need to get a degree.

So, your perspective needs to see this, needs to understand what the reaction is to your lateness, and needs to make a choice about action or not to rectify it.

Do I care personally if you are late? No, not at all. Nor do I care whether you get a decent job or stay unemployed. It's the Australian taxpayer who pays for you, not the UK one. You do need to know, though, that competition for jobs is hot, and that one will soon need a degree in janitorial studies in order to clean the toilets for a living.

All I care about is that you understand what people are saying to you. You are free to do what you wish with advice as long as you truly understand it.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54076 is a reply to message #54066] Sun, 12 October 2008 11:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

On fire!
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1558



Saben, I agree that you've been treated rather harshly on this topic. Lack of punctuality is not the only form of rudeness!

But - ageing hippy pacifist that I am - it saddens me that you risk replying in kind.

The Mystery Moderator has not been noticeable lately. Perhaps it's time they called for a time out, before everyone gets sent to the "naughty corner".



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54077 is a reply to message #54073] Sun, 12 October 2008 11:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
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Dear Timmy,

For what it's worth (not much) I think you are being a bit hard on Saben here. He has been called thick and rude without anyone here really knowing the circumstances or how other people in Melbourne see it. I think he has listened to what people say and responded politely. It seems to me that he has acted fully in the ethos of the forum. Even you say "I see yet another rude student" and I think this is calling him rude - not the same as saying that 'his actions might be taken as rude if the lecturer were sensitive'.

From what Saben has said it appears that the lecturer isn't sensitive but that Saben is - why otherwise would he ask our opinions?

Love,
Anthony
Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54078 is a reply to message #54066] Sun, 12 October 2008 11:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Prick!?!

Oh my, i thought I was quite measured throughout your "I am going to be late regardless" tirade....

Actually, I am not commenting on you, but to you, because you refuse to see, understand, absorb, take in, the fact that no matter how you view an habitual lack of character.... Others see it as something deeper and more offensive than you are capable of understanding.

Someday, you will get the message, or not, as the case may be.... It, however doesn't make one iota's difference to me.... As I am not the one that will be left standing at the curb when the party marches on.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54079 is a reply to message #54077] Sun, 12 October 2008 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



I have been to Melbourne, I have been to Melbourne University, to be late there is indeed just every bit as rude as it is here where I am and also where it is where you are.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Point of View - 'Punctuality'  [message #54082 is a reply to message #54077] Sun, 12 October 2008 15:42 Go to previous message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



I told him what I "see" as the lecturer. I have carefully not called him thick. I have described lateness as rude. He must make his own judgement about whether my perception is likely to be more general.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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