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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Voting age
Voting age  [message #54255] Mon, 20 October 2008 18:06 Go to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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OK, we've often had discussions here about the age of consent, but what do people think about the age at which someone ought to be allowed to vote? The UK is currently conducting consultation on whether to reduce the voting age - either purely for local elections, or for all elections. ( see http://www.justice.gov.uk/docs/voting-age-consultation.pdf ).

My own view? I think I'm pretty strongly in favour. I don't suppose that turnout among 16 & 17 year olds will be much higher than among their rather disillusioned elders ... but society recognises that such people are capable of making some pretty major decisions (sex, getting married/CP'd with parental consent, etc) at 16, and I think it's right they should have the opportunity / obligation to vote, as well.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Voting age  [message #54256 is a reply to message #54255] Mon, 20 October 2008 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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I'm pretty sure I wasn't fit to vote until 19 or 20, but then I am a bit peculiar. I think 17 or 18 would be OK. I'd not argue about 16, but would be a bit worried, considering my grandchildren (aged 10, 10, 12 & 12) and I do seriously wonder whether the elder pair would be up to it in only four years.

I guess that the younger the vote is given, the greater the chance that the vote is cast according to the parents' prejudices. When I first voted I toed my father's party line. Actually I went on toeing it for at least another ten years. I suspect that it might be desirable to pitch the age late enough for there to be a chance that the child would be ready to reject the parental advice.

What do the rest of you think?

Love,
Anthony
Re: Voting age  [message #54257 is a reply to message #54256] Mon, 20 October 2008 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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acam wrote:

(snip)
> When I first voted I toed my father's party line. Actually I went on toeing it for at least another ten years. I suspect that it might be desirable to pitch the age late enough for there to be a chance that the child would be ready to reject the parental advice.


Being a somewhat contrary-minded child (have I changed, I wonder?), I suspect that my first couple of votes (aged 18 ) were in opposition to parental guidance!

But actually, I think most kids have their own value systems established, if not fully-worked-out, by the age of 16. I currently have my 14-y-o nephew staying: I'll ask him his views on this if I catch him on his own.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Voting age  [message #54263 is a reply to message #54255] Mon, 20 October 2008 23:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Curtis one who makes noise is currently offline  Curtis one who makes noise

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I think that if your old enough to go fight a war then your old enough for all the other things, Including voting.

I saw an article in the local paper where they had a youth vote and Obama won by a landslide.



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Re: Voting age  [message #54265 is a reply to message #54263] Mon, 20 October 2008 23:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Scott is currently offline  Scott

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Curtis wrote:
> I think that if your old enough to go fight a war then your old enough for all the other things, Including voting.

I was in the first wave of kids who were eligible to vote as 18 year olds when the age was dropped from 21. In the Vietnam War era, this was the same logic we used. I had prided myself in being fairly politically astute because, for one, I read everything I could get my hands on, and two, I lived near the state capital of Pennsylvania, a very political atmosphere.

As to whether or not I would have been capable of voting intelligently when I was 14-17, I don't think so. I knew what I thought were important issues, but I needed more life experience (a job, paying for college, taxes, the Vietnam War draft lottery for a few examples) to bring home the impact that politics had on my life. Under the protection of my parents' house, I would not have understood, and would probably have blindly gone along with their suggestions.

In the overall reality of voting, technically our votes are merely "suggestions" for the electoral college. The only place they really are counted are in local and state elections. I suppose in my perspective, I have become rather jaded about the impact my vote has. That said, I have only missed voting in one or two elections in the past 37 years.

Scott



Cycling is the one sport where a guy can shave his legs, wear spandex and bright colors, and be accepted.
Re: Voting age  [message #54266 is a reply to message #54265] Tue, 21 October 2008 00:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Senne is currently offline  Senne

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how many presidents has my uncles mother lived through shes i believe 92-93??
just an odd question i havent been able to solve
Re: Voting age  [message #54268 is a reply to message #54263] Tue, 21 October 2008 01:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
unsui is currently offline  unsui

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No Message Body

[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 16:57]

Re: Voting age  [message #54272 is a reply to message #54255] Tue, 21 October 2008 10:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Every political party so far that has changed the voting community has done it in the belief that they will obtain political advantage from it. They feel that the newly enfranchised will somehow be grateful to them and vote for them. Probably this has more to do with their personal missionary zeal than any form of reality, since reality after the event is a broadly unchanged political landscape.

When the UK lowered the voting age from 21 to 18 all that changed was that more people were eligible to vote. The expectation was that, young people being more idealistic (a generalisation that is not necessarily correct) the landscape would swing to the parties that purport to give advantage to the socially deprived. In some cases that will have proved to be correct, but it did not alter the broad sweep of UK politics.

Looking at the parents of the kids my wife teaches, one wonders how some of them are able to get to the pub by themselves, and one is horrified that the law allows them to drive cars! These folk are a great persuader for eugenics. And they are entitled to vote!

Age has very little to do with it. I would say, simply, that, when one is of age to be able to be legally responsible for signing a contract that is the age at which one should be entitled to vote. Though I'd love to see some sort of CAPTCHA style test to see if the voters are really human before their vote has any significance.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Voting age  [message #54273 is a reply to message #54272] Tue, 21 October 2008 10:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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timmy wrote:
(snip)
> Looking at the parents of the kids my wife teaches, one wonders how some of them are able to get to the pub by themselves, and one is horrified that the law allows them to drive cars! These folk are a great persuader for eugenics. And they are entitled to vote!
>
> Age has very little to do with it. I would say, simply, that, when one is of age to be able to be legally responsible for signing a contract that is the age at which one should be entitled to vote. Though I'd love to see some sort of CAPTCHA style test to see if the voters are really human before their vote has any significance.

I can't say that I'm a massive fan of unrestricted democracy - it too easily turns into a tyranny by the majority. But given our present set-up, it's probably the least worst system.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Voting age  [message #54274 is a reply to message #54273] Tue, 21 October 2008 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Messages: 13739



NW wrote:
> I can't say that I'm a massive fan of unrestricted democracy - it too easily turns into a tyranny by the majority. But given our present set-up, it's probably the least worst system.

The idea of introducing a "voting licence" has appeal, but how on earth would one construct the terms and conditions and criteria that must be met?



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Voting age  [message #54275 is a reply to message #54274] Tue, 21 October 2008 10:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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I wouldn't trust any limit to the franchise. It's way too easy of a slippery slope to head down...

Today we exclude people that don't fail an IQ test, tomorrow they exclude atheists and gays.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Voting age  [message #54276 is a reply to message #54255] Tue, 21 October 2008 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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I believe that taxpayers should be similar to shareholders in a company. Those paying income tax should be entitled to vote. Of course I don't think a further restriction of franchise to exclude people on pensions is a smart idea, but I do support extending the franchise to people of a legal taxpaying age.

In Australia that'd be about 15, I believe.

If you are old enough to have your money confiscated by the government, you are old enough to have a say in how that money is spent. Lots of people make dumb political decisions, but some teenagers would make better decisions than some adults.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Voting age  [message #54277 is a reply to message #54275] Tue, 21 October 2008 11:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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I agree.

But even a democracy needs limits: a written constitution (which in the UK we don't have) would be a good start.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Voting age  [message #54278 is a reply to message #54277] Tue, 21 October 2008 11:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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True.

I like the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Australia's is a bit deficient. We're based off of "convention" to a large degree.

The Prime Minister, despite being Australia's most influential politician isn't even mentioned in our constitution.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Voting age  [message #54279 is a reply to message #54276] Tue, 21 October 2008 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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What about abolishing the voting age?

If someone feels confident that they can make a vote, let them.

Sure the incidence of informal voting will likely increase. But I don't think it'd do any damage to democracy...

Parents already tell their adult children who to vote for and it'd add a whole new dimension to election campaigns...



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Voting age  [message #54287 is a reply to message #54279] Tue, 21 October 2008 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Thinking further on this-

There are no age restrictions on watching a Shakespearean play, riding a bike, reading the daily paper or drinking caffeine.

Yet parents know at what ages these activities become suitable for their children and children themselves get a sense of what is appropriate for them and what they are capable of.

I think social regulation works as well as legal regulation in a lot of cases.

If the under 12s vote really changed electoral outcomes I think it speaks more about society and the system than the legality of them voting...



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Voting age  [message #54288 is a reply to message #54287] Tue, 21 October 2008 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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I had a chat about this to my 14-y-o nephew, who's staying with me for a couple of days. I think he's persuaded me that rather few kids of 12/13/14 are that interested, but that if they are interested enough to turn up and vote, they should be allowed to.

So that looks as though I'll be responding to the consultation to say yes - votes at 16 (in the absence of any option to suggest younger kids be enfranchised).



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Voting age  [message #54295 is a reply to message #54288] Wed, 22 October 2008 10:20 Go to previous message
saben is currently offline  saben

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In Australia it seems the priority would be on making voting voluntary instead of compulsory...



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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