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I know this subject has been beat to death but I still wonder about it. Having spent my life in higher education I have seen the reactions of young students who learn the things they were never taught in grade school. A friend of mine gave a guest lecture on the works and life of Michael Angelo and the stress that developed between Himself and Leonardo DaVinci. These are two of the greatest artist that have ever lived. Anyone who has ever seen the real statue of David finds themselves waitting for him to step off the block. Does it mater that both of these men were gay. Michael Angelo was in love with a young artist named Tomas and Leonardo kept a young boy. How many people know that every angel or cherub that Leonardo painted was the face of his young lover. Is it important for young gay boys to know that Men of this stature were gay? did being gay promote their greatness or does it mater? Is it right that humanity know that the greatest amoung us are gay? I listen to what our children are being taught and whats being deleted because it is unacceptable for the Christian dogma.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I'm not sure whether it is important or not that these gentlemen were gay. Equally I'm not sure whether homosexuality was even considered at the time.
I think it is good information, relevant information, but I'm unsure of its overall importance.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Yes, I think it is important to know their sexuality if it impinges on their work or the emotional or intellectual understanding of their work.
To go back to my favourite Thomas Mann, it has become easier to understand his works since it became public knowledge that he was bisexual. Previously the alternative was to suspect he was homosexual which didn't tie in with his being married with six children. There was only room for speculation.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I think one may make no assumption about "married with children". We'd have had loads if we could have, but I am still gay as an Easter parade.
I'm not sure that it does a huge amount to help me understand their art any more than knowing that Rubens painted plump lasses in erotic poses because he was straight.
Might it not be similar to a self fulfilling prophecy? "Gosh, David looks so good coz the sculptor was queer!"
What about the statues of Peter Pan worldwide? He has legs to die for, but was the sculptor gay or str8 or a boylover or or or?
I'm not arguing for the sake of it. I am interested.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I don't think that the idea of being "gay", or even "bisexual" has much meaning for most people who lived before the 1890s. That seems to be when the 'medical' model, concerned with sexual orientation, became the dominant view.
Before that, at least in the West, for several centuries the dominant model was the 'religious' model, which didn't really have the concept of homosexual people, but of homosexual acts (which accordingly, could be performed by all sorts of people: married, single, whatever). There was also - for several centuries - an ideal of close male friendship, which was entirely separate, though we'd now see it as essentially 'gay' in nature.
So, while I DO think it's helpful to know whether artists of previous centuries had romantic or physical relationships with men, women, or (usually) both, and it can certainly inform an appreciation of their art, I think we have to be extremely careful of using the words 'gay' or homosexual' about such artists.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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The use of gay as far as Leonardo goes is right on the money. As in an article I posted not long ago it was common for a grown man to take a younger boy as a lover (those of that persuasion) Leonardo took a 13 year old boy into his home and lived with him till his death. Michaelangelo admited his homoseuality in his writting. He was very much in love with Tomas but there is no indication that it ever became physical. He struggled with his nature and his religious convictions. A lot of the melancoly and sadness can be seen in his works.
Leonardo was gay but pinted amazing pictures of Men and women. I cant say if being gay or straight affects the outcome of ones art. I think my question is if knowing they are gay would make younger gay boys feel better about themselves.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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Timmy wrote:
>I think one may make no assumption about "married with children".I'm not sure that it does a huge amount to help me understand their art any more than knowing that Rubens painted plump lasses in erotic poses because he was straight.Might it not be similar to a self fulfilling prophecy? "Gosh, David looks so good coz the sculptor was queer!"<
Your thinking is going in the wrong direction. You look at David. After thinking about the statue you become aware that was Michaelangelo was gay. Then comes the enlightenment. Ah! That's why he invested so much of his genius in that work.
I can't talk about Peter Pan because I know nothing of the sculptor, but if the legs are so beautiful, it's easy to argue that for some reason he had a great interest in boys' leg and it would be interesting to know why. Naturally, if you don't know why, it does not alter the fact that the legs are bautiful for their own sake.
Hugs
Nigel
PS - I hope this doesn't appear on the board in the way it appears in the preview.
PPS - Part of this post is missing. I'll try to resurrect it. !?!
[Updated on: Sat, 25 October 2008 07:48]
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Timmy wrote:
>I think one may make no assumption about "married with children".<
It's not a question of assumption or opinion, but defintion. If a man has erotic relationships with a woman and a man, he is by defintion bisexual.
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Out of Ryan's main friends, all of whom are 18 give or take a few months, all of whom have previously claimed to be straight:
-one admits to thinking another is at least "fuckable" (I have to say I agree) and has mentioned a couple of other guys as being "guys I'd do"
-one is "fully straight", yet confident enough in his sexuality that he hugs Ryan and even "play bites" and says he'd be more likely to have sex with some attractive guys than some unattractive girls
-another, who has always been the most prudish, saintly and virginal (and always denied any chance of him ever doing anything with another guy), said today "maybe I could be bisexual, but I'd still want to try a girl first"
So out of Ryan and his 3 main friends, Ryan is gay and the others are varying degrees of bisexual. I don't think they would ever pursue a homosexual relationship- they will likely all end up married with kids. But they don't fit the typical 20th Century hetero moulds.
I definitely think there is starting to be a resurgence of bisexuality as the dominant sexuality. Most people will still pursue the culturally typical relationship (heterosexual with kids), but hopefully we're moving to a time where homoerotic attraction and behaviour isn't looked down on.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Timmy wrote:
>I'm not sure that it does a huge amount to help me understand their art any more than knowing that Rubens painted plump lasses in erotic poses because he was straight.<
The word 'me' in that statement makes it impossible to argue against it.
I think I have managed to get across now what I wanted to say in my original reply.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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It depends how you define bisexual 
If you are a 1 or 9 on the Kinsey Scale are you bisexual? How about 2 or 8? How about 0.1 and 9.9?
Is bisexuality defined by sexual activity or sexual attraction? Or is it defined by relationships?
I'm happy to let people call their orientations whatever they want. What one labels themselves is the most important.
I label myself "gay", despite the fact that I have a passing interest in females and have had some limited sexual experiences with females. I clarify my points when talking more in depth with people, but at first meeting, I am "gay".
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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But, when I look at David, my mind does not drift to the sexuality of the sculptor. I simply see something which is aesthetically pleasing.
It's obvious the, for example, Stubbs must have admired horses:
But he was simple a great artist in his field. And others could not paint a horse if their lives depended upon it.
What one can argue is by no means what one may necessarily be correct in arguing.
I know we're way off Roger's initial intent for the thread, of course. Sorry Roger
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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but replace "me" by "one" and what then?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Well, Saben, I think you may be right.
Although the word 'gay' is used as a prime adjective of disapproval in primary school playgrounds here, I have noticed, while waiting to pick up grandchildren outside secondary school that there is more physical contact than would have been usual sixty years ago and, although the commonest is rough housing, more boys with arms round the shoulders or even waists of other boys. I haven't seen boys holding hands, though, as the girls commonly do. We can hope.
If only the campaigns against homophobic bullying succeed in making it really unacceptable then we may see the revolution we'd like.
When I walk down the road in the morning to get the paper wearing tights (which I think some people see as a public admission of gaiety) about half the people that see my cheerful face smile at me and about half avert their eyes or scowl. I think there is a long way to go.
Love,
Anthony
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Then I disagree
At the risk of having a ton of bricks fall on me from other posters, whether we like it or not heterosexuality is the norm in our society. It is homosexuality that deviates and therefore provides the point of interest. That is not a value judgement btw.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Bisexual means that a person is willing to stick his dick in just about anything.
There really is a word for that but it isn't bisomethingorother....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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acam wrote:
>
> When I walk down the road in the morning to get the paper wearing tights (which I think some people see as a public admission of gaiety) about half the people that see my cheerful face smile at me and about half avert their eyes or scowl. I think there is a long way to go.
>
>
Don't you think, possibly, perhaps, maybe, it just might that the first hald can't believe it and the second half has a smidgen of fashion sense?
We have a tight wearer here in Sandusky too.... Very scary.!
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Sun, 26 October 2008 02:17]
Cycling is the one sport where a guy can shave his legs, wear spandex and bright colors, and be accepted.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I absolutely agree that it is interesting. I agree that it is infomration that is relevant. But is it 'important'?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I disagree. Boys who even bumfuck other boys when trying sex out are not, by definition, bisexual when they later turn to girls exclusively. They are whatever they are when their orientation becomes more settled.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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If one pokes the lond dark road he is a long dark road poker.
There is no "i used to be a dark road poker"
A dark road poker is a dark road poker and thats that..... even if he decides to poke the mackrel.... he is still a dark road poker.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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The more I think about this the more I am certain that it is interesting, useful extra information but not important.
Knowing Liberace was gay does not make his cabaret act better or worse for me.
Knowing Noel Coward was gay does not make his plays and revues better or worse.
Knowing Oscar Wilde was gay, even married and gay, does not make Lady Windemere's Fan a better play.
Ben Britten was not a better composer, nor Peter Pears a better singer because they were gay, nor did their life partnership enhance or diminish their work.
I find it of great interest when I am interested in the work produced, but it is an interest in the background to the person, and has no bearing on my appreciation of their work.
I feel this would be true of a statesman, too. For example, Palin is a nasty piece of work. That she is female has no bearing on her sly nastiness. Obama will make neither a better nor a worse US President (if elected) because he is half caste. Their sexual orientation, even their sexual deeds and misdeeds are of no interest as long as their jobs are done well.
But I find it interesting, nonetheless.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy, important implies important to whom? What's important to me may not be important to you and vice versa. By making the question subjective, there is no definitive answer.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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A brief reply as I am due out for 6.30 (BST).
Knowing that those quoted are gay doesn't make any difference to their works. The fact that they were gay of course makes a difference because the stresses and strains on their lives, and therefore their thinking, are different and behind their creativity in all its forms.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I think this (that you have just stated) is an area where we are in complete accord.
Where I believe that homosexuality becomes 'important' is when it is no barrier to top achievement, nor an enabler of top achievement. The Australian diver typifies that for me. He's very good indeed, and at the top of his game. He is also gay. Neither impinges on the other, neither enhances the other.
I feel that is where the importance lies - in the sexuality being a simple attribute of a person with whom gay and str8 people can identify, who is at the top of his game and an example solely because of his skill.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Marc, just because you are unwilling to change does not mean that others do not change. Just because a boy engages in sexual play with his mates does not define him for life as gay. And just because a person is capable of enjoying sex with either a male or female does not make that person something to be ridiculed.
You say, "There is no 'I used to be a dark road poker'" and you could be no more incorrect. When a person is searching for the love and acceptance needed to emotionally survive a rough patch in his or her life receiving that love for another of the same sex is not uncommon. When that same person later marries and raises a family, never to return to sex with the same gender, proves you wrong.
Look at the people around you and you will see great diversity, not the narrow, rigid definitions you frequently apply.
JimB
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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And I think you are wrong.....
Oh well.....
But as I have said many times before, the bell can not be unrung.....
and if a person walkes the road it can NOT be unwalked.
Just because a gay person marries and raises children does not make him straight.... Even if that gay person never looks for another same sex partner..... Gay is gay is gay... and thats it.
And my definitions are nor at all rigid.... It is the behavior of gay people and gay activities that is being discussed here.... and as such you nor I can ungay anyone.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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And you know the workings of their thinking processes how?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
> It is the behavior of gay people and gay activities that is being discussed here.... and as such you nor I can ungay anyone.
Nope. Neither can you not I nor anyone "un-straight" anyone: several of the boys I had sex with at school are definitely straight. Not gay. Not even bi. not even "curious". They were just hormone-driven 16-year-olds looking for quick release.
It really *isn't* what you do, nor who you do it with, but who you'd really like to do it with, and who you fall in love with that counts.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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And then there is just the sex....
And if boys are getting sex from one another then they are gay.
And that doesn't go away just because a girl walks by.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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Yes, that makes logical sense.
I have a friend who is a vegan. Once he ate meat. This means that he is an omnivore, not a vegan.
I once ate a meal with no meat content. That means I am a vegetarian who also eats meat.
A dog has four legs. Somewhere I used to be able to pseudo-prove that a dog is a cat.
There is a logical pseudo-proof that zero is one.
So yes, any person who has touched the genitals of another person of the same gender in a sexual way is homosexual. Doesn't matter if that is their nature or not.
"Are you now, or have you ever been a homosexual?"
I assume any gay man or woman who has tried a shag with the opposite sex is bisexual?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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timmy wrote:
> I assume any gay man or woman who has tried a shag with the opposite sex is bisexual?
No Timmy, according to Marc, any person who at any time has engaged in same-gender sex is homosexual, period. Forever.
Marc wrote:
> Bisexual means that a person is willing to stick his dick in just about anything.
>
> There really is a word for that but it isn't bisomethingorother....
And to him a bisexual person is ... well, just horrible beyond description.
JimB
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Ok....... you win.
But according to your logic, any person that states he is gay without ever having any sort of gay like encounter must not be gay at all.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I have no idea where winning or losing comes into it.
One can be gay perfectly easily without a sexual encounter of any description taking place. One simply knows.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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When I was a lad of about 12 I realized that I liked the company of other boys. I liked to look at them in the shower (covertly). A short while later I had dreams and phantasies about sex with some of them and I was very much in love with my best friend. I never had sex with another boy, never kissed or touched one. I was still gay. Because I did not act on my impulses did not negate my nature. You can be straight and never have had sex and the same goes with being gay. Being gay is not a choice, it is what you are.
As far as bisexuals go, there is a saying amoung the gays I know, "Bi now gay later". Also they are called fence sitters. I think this may stem from the floppy nature of bisexual men. They will take a lover of the same sex, with love and devotion and all that, then find some girl and all of a sudden become stright because it makes life easier for them.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No, one simply thinks one knows....
At least until the talk becomes the walk....
Then one knows.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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You ought to allow for that.
One does not stick a cock in one's mouth or up one's arse to determine whether one is really gay. It isn't an experiment.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I agree with Marc on this point.
No offense, Anthony, but if I was walking down the street and saw a man of your age in tights I'd probably avert my eyes, too...
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Isn't attempting to know the thought processes of authors and artists key to literature and art appreciation.
Knowing the background of a particular author or artist is important. Mostly when their background has influenced their work.
A diver's background is far less important.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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Well, there is more than one author of gay stories on the site here that is not gay. I wonder if that is important or simply of interest? I shall not reveal which. Elsewhere when that happened there was a witch hunt.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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