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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Disgusting
Disgusting  [message #54398] Sun, 26 October 2008 22:14 Go to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



http://nocleanfeed.com/index.html

This kind of thing leaves me speechless...



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Disgusting  [message #54400 is a reply to message #54398] Sun, 26 October 2008 22:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



China, it seems, is being adopted as the model for Australia.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Disgusting  [message #54401 is a reply to message #54398] Sun, 26 October 2008 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

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Location: England
Registered: November 2003
Messages: 1756



Could this become a constitutional matter, as say in America?

Hugs
N



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: Disgusting  [message #54402 is a reply to message #54401] Sun, 26 October 2008 22:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Doubtful.

Our constitution is rather useless for this kind of stuff.

The Australian constitution is more about the division of power between the states and federal governments. It also sets up the organisation of the Upper and Lower Houses. Nothing about free speech, freedom of expression or anything of the sort.

This is a battle that is going to have to be won through public pressure.

Which means convincing all the concerned families that the filtering scheme is 1) useless at protecting their children and 2) may slowdown the economy and cost jobs.

Philosophical arguments about freedom aren't worth much in Australia. Outcomes are all that matter.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Disgusting  [message #54403 is a reply to message #54400] Sun, 26 October 2008 22:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Yes. Despite the Minister's claims that countries in Europe (like the UK) have similar models the model being proposed is far more draconian than anything in other Western nations.

I believe the UK filtering scheme is entirely optional for the UK from what I've read.

China, of course, has much stricter filtering, but this is definitely a slippery slope.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Disgusting  [message #54407 is a reply to message #54402] Sun, 26 October 2008 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



You could always move to another country.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Disgusting  [message #54409 is a reply to message #54407] Sun, 26 October 2008 23:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Actually this is one of the few things that makes me seriously consider doing so...

A lot of people threaten to move countries when there is a change of government/ presidents. But this is serious enough to consider acting rather than just threatening.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Disgusting  [message #54410 is a reply to message #54409] Sun, 26 October 2008 23:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

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Messages: 4729



Just what kind of filtering are they talking about?



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Disgusting  [message #54412 is a reply to message #54410] Sun, 26 October 2008 23:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Well- you will have a choice between one of two different blacklists:

The first list filters all content inappropriate for children. Which would of course stop teens from visiting websites like this. Basically it is to stop children from looking at porn.

The second blacklist will STILL filter your internet. But instead will filter illegal content. The "kiddie porn" card is being played with politicians implying that not wanting to be filtered= wanting to watch kiddie porn. Originally it was only kiddie porn that was going to be filtered, but now the term being used is "illegal content" which includes websites that discuss euthanasia, for example.

It is an attack on free speech. An attack on the free market. And I don't think it's going too far to say it's an attack on minority interests.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Oh and most importantly  [message #54413 is a reply to message #54412] Sun, 26 October 2008 23:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



It will slow web browsing speeds and still not work.

There is currently no plan to filter P2P programs or file sharing over MSN. So the kiddie porn downloaders will still find a way. Unless the government chooses to ban MSN, BitTorrent and Limewire entirely.

There's no way this is a good thing.

With differing states having different laws regarding the possession and sale of pornography it's not a stretch to say that this is an attack on Federalism, too...



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54414 is a reply to message #54413] Mon, 27 October 2008 01:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Well I for one am entirely in favor of any effort to stop kiddy porn....

I am all for tracking people that access kiddy porn websites....

I am all for having kiddy porn advocates spend a great number of years in prison....

I am not sure how this would affect otherwise appropriate web browsing.... But I do believe that a little inconvienence is not a too high price to pay to protect innocent children.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54415 is a reply to message #54414] Mon, 27 October 2008 07:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

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Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



Sorry to say this, Marc, but I can't go there with you... Criminals always were (are and will be) one step ahead of police and legislation... This means they WILL find a way and there's nothing to stop them. On the other hand, these filters will complicate the entire business and common life of people who have never even considered trading child porn.... This definitely IS a restriction of free speech. Period. Saben, I hope this step will be stopped, otherwise minorities will have to think of appropriate reaction...

I have only one question: Whom (and) why do they want to control????

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54418 is a reply to message #54414] Mon, 27 October 2008 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



So you thinking spending millions of dollars on a FILTERING scheme is better than spending the same millions on better funding for the Australian Federal Police?

This programme is pandering to ignorant parents and no-one else.

It's a pathetic waste of money that does not do what it sets out to do.

And it's an attack on free speech. Euthanasia and anorexia are possibly going to be filtered for crying out loud. Websites like this and nifty will likely be filtered, too :S



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54419 is a reply to message #54418] Mon, 27 October 2008 09:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Roger is currently offline  Roger

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: February 2007
Messages: 522



Not to worry. Im sure some nurdy 17 year old will develop a program that can bypass the filter and he will place it on the net as freeware.



If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54420 is a reply to message #54419] Mon, 27 October 2008 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
paulj is currently offline  paulj

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Messages: 152



17 year old!! No Way!! if my neighbours son is anything to go by much more like a 13 year old to be honest. They can run rings round 'official' interference believe me!!

Paul
::-)
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54421 is a reply to message #54419] Mon, 27 October 2008 09:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Actually the free filtering software the government gave out last year was cracked within an hour by a 14 year old.

That's not the problem so much that the government would dare such a move in the first place.

I'm internet and computer savvy, they won't be able to filter my content so much as they'll be able to slow my speeds and mightily piss me off.

I'm not worried about me. But I am worried about the suicidal gay teen that will no longer be able to access sites like this one...



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54422 is a reply to message #54421] Mon, 27 October 2008 13:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Well, perhaps just tracking those that visit kiddy porn sites and then prosecuting them would be enough.

Surely even you must agree that those that persue kids in any way should be brought to justice.....



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54423 is a reply to message #54422] Mon, 27 October 2008 22:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Well, Marc.

My honest opinion is that, like drugs and poachers, the suppliers should be targeted rather than the consumers.

Kiddie porn, especially pre-pubescent kiddie porn is disgusting and usually abusive. However the only abuse occurs in the production of kiddie porn. Watching already existing kiddie porn is essentially a victimless crime. Watching kids on webcam is by and large victimless. Sure a total dry-up of demand would diminish the need for supply, but I don't think jailing watchers of kiddie porn is anywhere near as important as jailing those who take children and force, threaten or bribe them to do sexual acts.

I believe in punishing people that harm children. Without question. But I do think that punishment should match the crime committed. I believe that the current paedophile witch hunt is excessive and often focuses on the wrong end. ESPECIALLY when I read articles that say "An 18 old year old man was jailed for 10 years today for possession of child porn. His collection of over 100 files contained images of children as young as 12". I think jailing an 18 year old for looking at pictures of a 16, 14, or even 12 year old is wrong. Yet the current law occasionally does that.

By and large, however, I think most of the jail-time received is legitimate. The government in Australia usually only focuses on child porn rings rather than on individuals that have a few questionable files. I trust the Australian Federal Police to do a good job and bring the appropriate people to justice. Instead of a useless filter, I'd rather funding be spent on the AFP so they can do their job of pursuing child porn suppliers and distribution rings better. I'd rather the money be spent on putting the truly disgusting behind bars. Let's actually protect our children rather than just bubble-wrapping them.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54424 is a reply to message #54423] Mon, 27 October 2008 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Of course the people that bring the porn to the internet should be punished too......

But the fact that someone places a crime on the net is one thing....

If it is a crime to view these nasty things then there is a price for that too.......

It doesn't matter what your opinion is where the toll becomes due one bit.....

The laws are in place and if you want them changed then work to change them... Until then, well i9t goes to the courts...



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54425 is a reply to message #54424] Mon, 27 October 2008 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Marc,

Up until a couple of weeks ago it was theoretically illegal to have an abortion. X rated porn is illegal in Australia and in some states all porn is illegal. Online gambling websites are illegal, too.

Laws are often on the books far longer than they should be. Until Parliament gets off its butt and changes the laws I think low enforcement is perfectly acceptable.

I don't think Parliament should be spending taxpayers' money to try and enforce unfair or over the top laws.

Money spent on enforcement should match the severity of the crime.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Update:  [message #54426 is a reply to message #54398] Mon, 27 October 2008 23:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



They are now trying to filter out all X-rated porn, even for adults, as well as online gambling sites. The sad thing is, a lot of this crap is still illegal in Australia due to outdated laws. So the conservative Christian types actually have a case.

http://www.somebodythinkofthechildren.com/ban-x-rated-porn-for-everyone-including-adults-family-first/#comments



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54427 is a reply to message #54425] Tue, 28 October 2008 00:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



So you might think......

But you of course are wrong......

Like I said,,, if you want the law changed, work for change.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54429 is a reply to message #54425] Tue, 28 October 2008 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Yes, indeed, Saben. The only time it is acceptable to have the law 100% enforced is when none of its provisions are unjust. And that has never happened - and more unjust laws are being enacted all the time. Nowadays supposedly 'anti-terrorist' laws are used to exclude protesters from political meetings.

So the consequence is that what gets enforced depends on the prejudices of policemen. That is the reason why issuing everyone with identity cards is a bad idea. It might make it easier to enforce laws that at present aren't enforced very well and so don't cause a clamour for repeal. Their current non-enforced status shows how unimportant it was to enact them.

When I was 32 years old sexual acts between men in pairs behind locked doors became legal for the first time in my life. Laws are sometimes VERY unjust.

Anyone who supports the law or the police unthinkingly in everything they do is just unaware of the many injustices in the law or of the stupidity of enforcing all of it or the dangers of allowing policemen to choose which bits to enforce.

Love,
Anthony
Direct action  [message #54430 is a reply to message #54427] Tue, 28 October 2008 10:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

On fire!
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1558



Marc wrote:
(snip)
> Like I said,,, if you want the law changed, work for change.

I think that for those of us who feel strongly that restrictive laws should change, that's certainly important. But I agree with Saben that we shouldn't wait for the law to change.

It's important to demonstrate that those who object to restrictions are not all wierdo deviants (in whatever context): breaking an essentially unfair, over-restrictive or plain stupid law and being happy to admit to it can be an essential part of bringing that particular law into disrepute, and establishing the political will and momentum to getting it changed.

This isn't, for me, a theoretical debate but a practical one. Several of the UK laws about homosexuality have been unjustifiable restrictions, and I've campaigned hard on the equalisation of the age of consent, the abolition of the notorious "Section 28*", and excluding a proposed exemption for Catholic adoption agencies from the Sexual Orientation Equality Regulations (amongst other things).

The two of these that represent then-existing law, I happen to have broken ... as an under-21 I had sex with other under-21s, including in a hotel bedroom (which under the then-existing law was a "public place", and so illegal for that reason as well as age). And as an adult Local Government employee I organised a display of a section of the AIDS Memorial Quilt, to which local schools made organised visits and which led to some interesting discussions - almost certainly in defiance of the law that a local authority "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality"

I absolutely defend the validity of these actions. Those who demonstrated the unworkability of these odious restrictions by defying them were as important in bringing about change as the campaigning actions of those of us who did that.


For myself, it's usually important that if I do choose to knowingly and deliberately break a law, it's important that I also campaign for the removal of that law. But that's just me: I wouldn't hold it up as a universal moral imperative.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54431 is a reply to message #54429] Tue, 28 October 2008 10:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



I just do not understand you people.

Are you in favor of child porn?

Every tine this subject comes up all I hear is "it's my rights that are being fucked with here" and that sort of drivvle.

What about the rights of those children?

Or do they not matter because they do not post here???



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54432 is a reply to message #54431] Tue, 28 October 2008 11:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

On fire!
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1558



Oh, come off it Marc!

No=one's arguing that. There is a strong case to be made for appropriate, effective and proportionate ways of fighting child pornography. But a blanket censoring of the internet isn't one of them, and neither is the monitoring of the activities of all adults just in case they do something the government-of-the-day disapproves of.


In European Human Rights legislation, the concept of "proportionality" is paramount. Where human rights are in conflict, as they often are, a balance has to be struck. For example, if someone is suspected of a terrorist offence it may be appropriate to breach their human rights by briefly detaining them while they are investigated, but it would clearly be a disproportionate response to shoot all suspects dead on sight as a matter of policy.

It's not a question of "it's my rights that are being fucked with here", but that "my rights are being inappropriately and disproportionately fucked about with".



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54433 is a reply to message #54432] Tue, 28 October 2008 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



This is where I loose any perspective.

I am talking about the rights of children.

You twist it to a terrorist thread.

I don't know what you are in favor of here....



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54434 is a reply to message #54433] Tue, 28 October 2008 11:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

On fire!
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1558



Marc wrote:
(snip)
> I don't know what you are in favor of here....

I really can't think why not - I tried to spell it out pretty carefully.

However, here we go again.

All humans have rights. Sometimes these rights are in conflict. When they are, we need to strike an appropriate balance.

The right of kids not to be involved in the sordid business of child pornography is undisputed. It is certainly a suitable balance that where someone is reasonably suspected of child pornography, some of their rights should be over-ridden (for example, over-riding their right to privacy in order to search their computer for evidence). However, it would (IMO) NOT be a suitable balance to search everyone's computer every week for any evidence of any kind of illegal activity - that would be a police state.

NO single human right is paramount in all circumstances (perhaps not even excepting the right to life).

We all balance different human rights differently ... of course we do. But simply because someone places a higher relative value on individual rights of privacy and dissent than you do does not mean they are in favour of child pornography, and you are quite intelligent enough to see that.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54435 is a reply to message #54433] Tue, 28 October 2008 12:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



We're not talking about the people abusing the children here, Marc. We're talking about people that look at pictures of children that may or may not have been abused...

If a pornographic movie of a child is produced how does me watching it infringe on that child's rights?



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54436 is a reply to message #54435] Tue, 28 October 2008 12:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Saben wrote:
> We're not talking about the people abusing the children here, Marc. We're talking about people that look at pictures of children that may or may not have been abused...
>
> If a pornographic movie of a child is produced how does me watching it infringe on that child's rights?

If you have to ask that question then it is obvious at least to me that you will never understand the answer.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54437 is a reply to message #54436] Tue, 28 October 2008 12:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

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Messages: 1537



Right to privacy?

So then surely peeping tom laws are comparable?



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54438 is a reply to message #54434] Tue, 28 October 2008 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Roger is currently offline  Roger

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: February 2007
Messages: 522



In the US was passed a law, I beleive it was called the internet decency law. IN this law it was illegal for anyone to view inapropriate images of children under the age of 18. Internet sites that showed images (computer CGA IMages), or drawn images took the law befor the Supreme Court. Altho the Supreme Court did not strike down the entire law it banned law enforcement from acting on the ban about viewing images. The Court said that that part of the law was to broad and that images generated by computer or the human mind contained no victims and therefor no crime has been commited.

The law was an atempt at thought policing. We are living in times when we must safe guard our rights. No one is in favor of child porn but we cannot allow laws that protect the rights of children to impinge on other rights. Because a law helps with child porn does not automaticly make it a good law, especially if it is broad and unclear or interferes with other rights.

Dont be so fast to give up your rights or even allow a slight trespass. This will only lead to a police state and thought police and behavior police. People should be required to read George Orwells "1984" and other books dealing with police states.



If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54439 is a reply to message #54437] Tue, 28 October 2008 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Only in your mind.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54440 is a reply to message #54439] Wed, 29 October 2008 00:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Well, my mind is driven by logic and critical analysis.

Not tradition, emotion, convention or anything else. I think that basing judgement allowing such things to influence judgement is pathetically weak.

Logic and reason say to me that one person looking at a naked picture of a child does not cause any significant level of harm to that child. You're yet to explain how it does.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54441 is a reply to message #54440] Wed, 29 October 2008 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

Likes it here
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



You know, Saben,

kiddie porn is illegal. period. People who produce such stuff should be punished severely. People who download such stuff are the reason why such stuff is produced, therefore they should be brought to justice as well, albeit not that severely as the producers...

In this case, I'm with you, Marc.

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54442 is a reply to message #54441] Wed, 29 October 2008 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Dear Marek,

Bringing the law into it clouds the issue. The law can be wrong (and often is). The reason you shouldn't is that it is wrong. If the law says don't do it and it is not wrong then go ahead and do it but don't get caught! And if the law says it's OK like gambling with your household income and it's wrong don't do it. Please don't confuse legal-illegal with right-wrong.

OK many laws prohibit things that *are* wrong, so there is a general presumption that one should obey the law, but many laws specify punishments that are out of proportion to the crime and the way laws are administered doesn't emphasise the rehabilitation of criminals. Since the most important thing (from society's point of view) is to stop crime, if afterwards the criminal is keen do do it again, the law has failed (and so has the criminal justice system).

Remember that laws are made by representatives who are elected and liable to pressure from 'public opinion' (that is: the gutter press) and what is important may be ignored. How else would a left wing (!) government here continue to allow about 30% of our children to be brought up in poverty? And that is the government's own definition of poverty - not mine or some do-gooder's.

I think it is wrong to pay directors of companies 1000 or 10000 times as much for a day's work than the street sweeper. But I'm getting off the subject.

The reason against child pornography is that it is wrong not that it is illegal.

When I was under thirty it was illegal to have sex in the UK with another man; do you think it was wrong?

Love,
Anthony
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54443 is a reply to message #54442] Wed, 29 October 2008 10:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

Likes it here
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



Point taken, Anthony,

ok, kiddie porn is WRONG... I understand that there may be exceptions when a child does it willingly out of sheer joy, but definitely MOST videos that are made show ABUSED kids, not volunteers, not professional actors being payed for it...

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54444 is a reply to message #54442] Wed, 29 October 2008 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Well here, we are talking about the wrongness of kiddie porn.

Period.

This has nothing to do with kids living in poverty.

We all know who makes the laws.

Some of us know that kiddie porn is not a good thing.... most especially for the kids that are drawn into it....

To support it in any manner is wrong, including the misguided so called rights to view it over the internet.

The reason kiddie porn is ILLEGAL is because we as a siciety believe it should be ILLEGAL and those involved should be brought to justice.

Even if the most corrupt, grafting, theiving sonofabitch of a polition and his cronies brought kiddie porn legislation into law then they would have done a good thing. A very good thing.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54445 is a reply to message #54443] Wed, 29 October 2008 10:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



No child does kiddie porn willingly.

Not one.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Oh and most importantly  [message #54446 is a reply to message #54445] Wed, 29 October 2008 10:32 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Fingolfin is currently offline  Fingolfin

Likes it here
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265



I just wanted to keep that door open, its like: you never know, maybe there is.... but its higly unlikely...

Marek



It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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