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Poverty  [message #54901] Tue, 02 December 2008 12:50 Go to next message
timmy

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Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



Acam has raised something that I struggle with regarding poverty. I agree at an emotional level that no child should be born into or raised in poverty. Yet precisely how possible is it to eliminate poverty? Intellectually I find it a challenge to understand.

Let me explain.

I am comfortable for money. I am comfortable because I can afford food, clothes, housing, health etc. I have had some luck, and mostly I have worked hard to achieve this state.

Most people in poverty work hard, too. Mostly the have different skills from mine. I buy goods created by people in poverty when I buy clothes. Their skills are valued lower than mine and clothing for me is cheap because they are paid little.

If their skills were valued at the same level as mine, clothes would cost me more. I would buy fewer, because I could afford fewer.

Since there are many people like me, the clothing business would start to fail because we are buying fewer clothes. The "better paid" clothing workers would lose their jobs and descend again into poverty.

So how can we eliminate poverty?

I know my example is simplistic, but show me where it is incorrect, please. Surely poverty is necessary for commerce to function?

[Updated on: Thu, 04 December 2008 07:47]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Poverty  [message #54905 is a reply to message #54901] Tue, 02 December 2008 22:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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Dear Timmy,

Your explanation implies that there is never a better way of doing anything. If that is true then bargaining is a zero-sum game. Whatever someone gains in a bargain is lost by the person on the other end of the bargain.

But as a business man and marketer you know that bargaining isn't a zero-sum game. Any bargain that is going to stick is beneficial to both parties because it is a better way of doing things. Although Arkwright's water frame put thousands of women with spinning wheels out of work it was a better way of spinning and when the women found other things to do the whole world was better off for its invention and introduction.

The people in Keithley that used to make Litesome jockstraps in the 1960s no longer do. They have found better things to do and are mostly better off than they were in the 1960s. When I gave NF a Slazenger jockstrap made in India it was better for him, better for me because cheaper in real terms than the old Litesome and better for the Indians that made it because they earned more form doing that than they did before.

Everyone is better off (particularly NF because it didn't cost him a bean!) but it cost me about £7 in today's money and in 1960 it would have cost 37/6d which is a LOT more in real terms.

And the standard of living has gone up a lot in both the UK and India since the 1960s.

But you know the standard of living has gone up! How do explain that in the terms you used to frame your question?

Love,
Anthony
Re: Poverty  [message #54906 is a reply to message #54901] Tue, 02 December 2008 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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timmy wrote:
(snip)
> If their skills were valued at the same level as mine, clothes would cost me more. I would buy fewer, because I can afford fewer. Since there are many people like me the clothing business would start to fail because we are buying fewer clothes. The "better paid" clothing workers would, lose their jobs and descend again into poverty.

I don't think that follows, actually. If you double the hourly rate of pay for the poor clothing worker, say from twenty pence up to forty pence an hour, you might put the cost of your clothes up by say 50p on a £75 pair of jeans. This is hardly going to significantly reduce the number of pairs you buy. You will take people out of absolute "moderate poverty", which the World Bank suggests is living on 2 dollars a day.

The clothing workers will still only earn a fraction of what you do, so they will still be in *relative* poverty compared to you. But they may nevertheless be having their work valued at a much higher level, compared to the norms and costs of the society in which they live ...ie their work being valued at significantly higher relative level than it was, if not exactly at the same rate as yours.

Like other essentials (water, air, etc), money becomes disproportionately valuable when there isn't enough of it to support life.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Poverty  [message #54908 is a reply to message #54901] Tue, 02 December 2008 22:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Wherever we reward some people more than others it is impossible to eliminate possibly partly because poverty has two definitions.

Absolute poverty has already been eliminated in the majority of the West.

Yet relative poverty still exists and will always exist so long as people are paid disparate wages.

Ignore the fact that someone in relative poverty might be able to afford food, health, education, transport, utilities and the latest plasma TV. If their income is a certain percentage below the mean, then they are in "poverty".

The only way to eliminate poverty is to start paying everyone the same wage. But that is just as unfair as being born poor is.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Poverty  [message #54909 is a reply to message #54905] Tue, 02 December 2008 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Anthony, you're right. The living standard has gone up for everyone recently.

So much so in fact that I'd say no-one in Australia is "poor".

I live on a government allowance of $10,000/ year. That is about as low as anyone's income would be in Australia. But I don't consider myself poor.

I can afford a computer. I can afford to go to the movies. I can afford new clothes every once in a while. I can afford to rent a decent house. Eat takeaway food a few times a week if I choose.

I'm not poor. And I'm on the bottom rate of payment the government offers.

If people are poor it isn't because of their incomes. It's because of poor life choices. Drinkers, smokers, gamblers, people that don't know how to budget, people that get in lots of debt. They all might have a poor lifestyle because of poor choices. And there is no real way to solve that kind of poverty. Though an improved education system may help.

[Updated on: Tue, 02 December 2008 23:02]




Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Poverty  [message #54911 is a reply to message #54905] Wed, 03 December 2008 00:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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I have no answers. But the questions raised by you and others are challenging. Many people simply go with the emotional "Make Poverty History" element and do not trouble themselves with the intellectual side.

Poverty has also become a soundbite buzzword. Thinking about what it is, what causes it, and how and whether one may eliminate it is far more difficult than saying as a politician "We must eliminate it."

Serious consideration of poverty is far better than sending cash to Africa, or wherever the current western fad is. After consideration one may act.

I have, personally, made a difference to poverty in Bangladesh by taking a taxi from Bracknell to Heathrow. The taxi driver sends all his spare cash to his family there. I was paid expenses by my US client to visit a facility in Amsterdam. I thus was instrumental in transferring probably $10 from the USA to Bangladesh each time I took that cab.

That money in Bangladesh was used by a relatively well off family to buy goods and services. Eventually that filters down to the poorest. Even the wealthiest human created wealth for the poorest by using the money they own.

Because the money works within the local economy no-one is artificially raised above their peers. They all climb up together.

When I travelled to Sri Lanka I was well able to afford not to bargain, and well able to afford lavish tips. But I bargained and I tipped according to local custom because it is important not to raise some individuals artificially from poverty into which they can fall back too easily.

Poverty is not a simple topic, hence the initial question.

[Updated on: Wed, 03 December 2008 07:07]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Make Poverty History - Support Free Trade  [message #54917 is a reply to message #54911] Wed, 03 December 2008 06:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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This is one of the simplest and most obvious ways to alleviate poverty. Yet for some reason one of the most overlooked.

Surely we should care about alleviating absolute poverty rather than relative poverty. And if that is the case, then we really need to support free trade.

Free trade may, in some cases, hurt factory workers in our own countries. But we have welfare to help the unemployed in our rich countries. Look at how outsourcing has helped those in India and China. Jobs aren't going into a black hole, they are transferring labour and income from rich countries to poor countries.

Getting out of poverty is always transitional. There is no silver bullet. Each country has to go through an Industrial Revolution. And yes some Industrial Revolutions are brutal. Look at Dickens' London... But look at England now! It was worth it...



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Poverty  [message #54921 is a reply to message #54908] Wed, 03 December 2008 09:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

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I agree with Saben's arguments. Poverty will continue in the UK for the foreseeable future all the time our educational and welfare systems produce and/or encourage a sizeable number of illiterate, innumerate and feckless individuals.

Hugs
N

[Updated on: Wed, 03 December 2008 23:09]




I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: Poverty  [message #54922 is a reply to message #54921] Wed, 03 December 2008 10:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Isn't Idiocracy (see the movie) somewhat different from poverty, though?



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Make Poverty History - Support Free Trade  [message #54924 is a reply to message #54917] Wed, 03 December 2008 12:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
paulj is currently offline  paulj

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I have for many years bought Free Trade varieties where I can of tea coffee and bananas. I find them at least as as good, if not better than the leading brand I may have purchased before.
Paul J.
Re: Poverty  [message #54934 is a reply to message #54922] Wed, 03 December 2008 19:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james is currently offline  james

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there will always be a perverty line,in the u.k and all over the world.
the reason i say poverty line is that as people move out of poverty others move into it.
Some in the u.k are well healed, but others are much poorer, and things will never change, different levels of poverty is a way of life.

I have a friend that lives in the Philippines, he sleeps on a piece of foam as a bed, but he has a computer and works very long hours to help feed his mum and dad and others,yes they are in poverty, but they do have strong standards of respect and family support.

A lot of poeple in the uk are very blind to people in poverty .we have become a selfish nation.
Re: Poverty  [message #54936 is a reply to message #54934] Wed, 03 December 2008 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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Dear James,

To the teachers, it is very obvious which children come from environments where they have a large variety of experience, books, music, pictures and so on to stimulate them and which come from households where there are few stimulants for their intellects.

I'm not after everyone living off caviar. I don't like the stuff anyway! But I do think that what makes life worth living is discovering what one is capable of and then doing it. Stretching and being stretched.

What can I do now? How can I do it to the best of my ability? Did I like that? Should I do it again or would I like to try something new?

Those are the attitudes that make life worth living and the poor too often don't ever get to see that.

What's on telly? Lets get wasted.

Love,
Anthony
Re: Poverty  [message #54938 is a reply to message #54901] Wed, 03 December 2008 22:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Macky is currently offline  Macky

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The roots of it are multiple. To attack povertt you must attack the roots. Physical and mental inequalities and ailments. Opportunity inequalities. Prejudice.
If society didn't have its priorities bass ackwards, all these things are addressable.



Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
Re: Poverty  [message #54944 is a reply to message #54938] Thu, 04 December 2008 00:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Assume that no poverty exists. Wave that wand and, for the moment, eliminate poverty, and then allow free will and the market to take over again.

Now what happens next to the people with more money than others and the people with less?

Fast forward a few years. What happens now?



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Poverty  [message #54945 is a reply to message #54901] Thu, 04 December 2008 01:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Macky is currently offline  Macky

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Human progress has always resulted from a genetic trial and error. To this, we all owe our intellectual heritage. Amazingly we are not perfect and have a long way to go. Unbelievably evolution is not done with us yet. We live in a world strewn with genetic mistakes; people who are not so intelligent. People who seen to be totally retarded and out of it. People who are physically incompacitated, the insane ,the crippled, the seemingly stupid. Now the question is; do we owe these failed experiments of trial and error evolution anything? I posit that if you answer in the negative, you are a knave and not fit for human company. Of course we owe these people. The brightest and the best among the successes of evolution must come to the aid of the “failed experiments of nature”. These suffered the burden to make you the great YOU that you are. If you should ignore them, you are but the lowliest of animals. HUMAN PROGRESS. BULLSHIT!! I proclaim. Human progress is working together. This is our basic tenet. We do not survive alone, we survive by the mercy and help of each other! So society has got to get its priorities straight. It has got to stop thinking there is you and here is me; there is good and over there is bad; there is the retarded and there is the the whole-mind. We have to understand that we survive as a society of people. If the most brilliant were to try to create an equal society, he would never match up to nature's natural selection. Capitalism is anathema, communism is anathema. Together, they point the way. If we do not resolve the inequalities of a humanity that is bound together in progress, we will all die for our lack of effort. Each person, no matter how lowly, is necessary and important to the good of the whole. If someone’s state of being makes them impoverished, this is a great sin for all who enjoy the fruits of that person’s existance, for in truth it is NOT their labor that produced these fruits. Lowly are those who enjoy the fruits of the lowly while exhaulting in their good fortune. Humanity is not YOU! You have to care about your fellow human as an underpinning to your prosperity. WHY? Because deep down in the basis of things it is TRUE. A person who does not live by this truth is doomed to War and Crime and Plague and all manner of misery. Those who live by this truth bring about heaven on Earth. Sorry, Apparently, it seems I am a radical.

Macky



Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
Re: Poverty  [message #54946 is a reply to message #54945] Thu, 04 December 2008 02:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Macky wrote:
> Sorry, Apparently, it seems I am a radical.

The only thing to be sorry about is that Mutualist / Co-operative / Anarcho-Syndicalist positions are so far off the mainstream of current thought that it's very difficult indeed to think of any way of moving in that direction except through a major and deadly destruction of the existing system ... which is something I can't bring myself to advocate.

I agree strongly with most of what you say. But the only route there - for me, at least - is to take Gandhi's advice and "be the change you wish to see". That, in itself, is something I find hard enough, having been brought up with the usual amount of baggage.

Oh, and as regards the "physically incompacitated, the insane ,the crippled " etc? That isn't "them". It's "us" ... many of us here have at one time or another qualified as one or more of these (the others, I'm sure, do well to remember "there but for the grace of God go I"). Most people do, actually. For the record, I have always suffered incurably from what was number 302.0 according to the old version of the International Classification of Diseases (ie homosexuality: the current version only considers being unhappy about being gay as a disorder!), and I've been a cripple for the past four years due to back damage.

NW



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Poverty  [message #54947 is a reply to message #54946] Thu, 04 December 2008 03:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Macky is currently offline  Macky

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Right, NW, we are all crippled in one way or another. I agree with Ghandi, evolution not revolution is how we do it. One unselfish act of kindness each day and build from there. Mankind didn't go to the moon over night. Neither will we come to treat one another equitably over night. BTW...one hellacious knarley vocabulary you have there, PoliticalScientist?



Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
Ah, but perhaps intelligence is an evolutionary dead end!  [message #54948 is a reply to message #54945] Thu, 04 December 2008 07:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Watch Idiocracy.

Those the intelligent perceive as imbeciles breed like rabbits. Violence walks the city streets. The alleged underclasses are prone to psychotic and brutish violence. They are better equipped to succeed in a free for all than are the intelligent.

So where is the dead end?



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Ah, but perhaps intelligence is an evolutionary dead end!  [message #54954 is a reply to message #54948] Thu, 04 December 2008 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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It looks pretty much to me as though "intelligence" is just one of those inherited characteristics that is a good thing in the right circumstances, but if taken too far makes it difficult for a species to adapt to changing circumstances. Evolution is full of no-longer-seen characteristics that were very successful in their time - sabre-teeth were very popular at one point among cats, bears, marsupials ... but don't hold up in today's world.

Given humankind's lamentable record in over-exploiting the environment (the extinction of large mammals by the first humans in the Americas, the over-exploitation of resources by and fatal crash of the Nasca (despite impressive initially-successful technological fixes), and so on), I'm not sure that we're "intelligent" enough to avoid doing the same thing on a global scale: I have considerable doubts that humans will reach the end of the next century.

So, evolutionary dead end? Well, perhaps. Intelligence on its own seems to be ... but it might work if it could get itself allied with altruism, empathy and perception.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Evolution  [message #54955 is a reply to message #54946] Thu, 04 December 2008 11:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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Dear Macky and NW,

One of the most fruitful of K R Popper's ideas is the suggestion that there is a world three, which consists of the communicable constructs of the human mind. All writing, painting, music, plans, engineering drawings and so on. Of course a lot dies the moment it is created (conversations and performances, for example, if not recorded).

World three contains all the great ideas all the correct theories and so on. It also contains all the mistakes and errors and lies and make believe. Now Popper thought that Darwinian natural selection applies to the ideas in world three just as it does to life in world one (the real world).

I suppose the implication of his theory is that the received wisdom gets more accurate as the false theories gradually get eliminated. Today most books describe the earth as going round the sun. But I don't need to give examples. The second thing to say about the evolution of world three is that it isn't limited (as real world evolution is) by generations. In two generations we have 'evolved' our mechanical adding machines into the most amazing information processors. [Excuse me for making 'evolved' into a transitive verb.]

I find it amazing that we do make progress so well, even in the moral and social sphere where astrologers and fortune tellers and charlatans and churches conspire the best they can to spread falsehood. So we no longer think homosexuality is a disease (though I am appalled to hear that being unhappy to be gay is still thought to be a disorder. Is being unhappy to be straight a disorder, I wonder?

So the evolution of world three is beginning to solve the most important problems the human race faces and maybe it will be rapid enough to preserve some decent life-styles. Whereas ordinary evolution is too slow to observe, world three evolution has changed our lives. My grandmother, who was born in Bogota first saw a car, a plane, a gramophone, a telephone, a wireless set and electric light when she came to Paris at the turn of the century.

I was born in a world without television, colour film, mobile phones, satnav, computers, transplant surgery, penicillin etc.

Think on! And remember most of the scientists that have ever lived are still alive!

Love,
Anthony

[Updated on: Thu, 04 December 2008 11:37]

Re: Evolution  [message #54957 is a reply to message #54955] Thu, 04 December 2008 12:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Interesting post.

World three seems to be very similar to what I (following Terry Pratchett and others) would call "extelligence". I agree that ideas, memes, theories etc are in some sense subject to natural selection, but that doesn't mean they are becoming truer, just that they fit better into the environment in which they find themselves. And the danger of developing specialised fitness for a particular environment is rapid extinction if the environment changes.

I think that the extelligence IS changing, and the idea of "hard science" (where "truth" depends on repeatability and Popper's idea of falsifiability) is struggling to survive in many of the areas it was frequently common. Chaos theories, and over-predation by science of Art and Emotion are possibly to blame ... but I think we will see the range "hard science" occupies considerably reduced over the next few decades. Though I'm sure that it will survive!



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Evolution  [message #54959 is a reply to message #54955] Thu, 04 December 2008 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Macky is currently offline  Macky

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Dear acam and NW,

World 3 extelligence is like the snowball of evolved human intelligence rolling down the hill of human experience. There is more than DNA now, there is the Bard, the legends, the print, the film, and teraflops of computer stored memories all cascading down through time (Hey, I are a poet too). NW, I think we have enough room in the snowball for extelligent evolutionary dead ends through excessive specialization to changing environment, as well as, a whole lot more stuff that is independent from the environment in which it developed. What you say about science and Art intermingling is certainly true, but I think that that is as it shoud be. All boundaries between areas of human exploration are artificial and more for convenience than to express any truth. I love it when Stephen Wolfram marvels at the beauty of his fractals as they emerge from his chaotic cellular automata. Or how about when And his iterative computing rules have thrown the basis of mathematics, the unit, into the realm of philosophy. No measurement is accurate even to the millionth decimal place, and in the iterative rule computer model, the millionth decimal place is very significant indeed, like on the 20 billionth iteration. This led him to write his “New Kind of Science” and art is in there! And have you read “Quantum Enigma » Physics Encounters Consciousness” Rosenblum & Kuttner. The obvious conclusion here is the reality of the physical world depends on the conscious observation of an individual. Maybe our minds are as much a part of nature as the rocks and tree. Gawd I love this stuff. I get religious about it.



Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
Re: Evolution  [message #54960 is a reply to message #54959] Thu, 04 December 2008 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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Well, Macky, I think it is probable that space is not a continuum. It is now widely accepted that matter and energy are granular, although some of the bits of quantum theory seem to me wrong. Maybe space is granular too.

But mathematics DOES assume a continuum and it is easy to specify a position, say, to far greater precision that the real world can manage (if space IS granular, that is). Until we have digital models that we can match to the real world we will not understand it and people will invoke magic where the explanations fall down.

What AM I doing typing stuff like this into a website devoted to gay love stories?

Love,
Anthony
Re: Evolution  [message #54963 is a reply to message #54960] Thu, 04 December 2008 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Macky is currently offline  Macky

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Hmmm, well, brane theory with its juxtaposed parallel universes Might be considered granular space. But you are right. Here we talk about being gay, so I will initiate a more apropo thread immediately. Love you all. Macky



Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
Re: Poverty  [message #54976 is a reply to message #54936] Thu, 04 December 2008 23:54 Go to previous message
james is currently offline  james

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