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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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No denying it. We all have/had them. Some of us are them. But in reading about Dewalt's relief at being freed from his family, I thought this might be a fun thing to discuss right now. I left home at 18 so I suppose I had a pretty easy time of it. I never told my family about being gay. My mom was always cool. She never bothered me about my personal life. My dad, on the other hand, would constantly badger me about when I was going to get married. I always had this thing that I wanted to please him, but he was asking the impossible. I was more than a little conflicted and I can remember tearfully asking him to let me alone and storming out of the house. Finally, at 37, I did get married. It was not consciously to please my dad, but because I found a friend who I really enjoyed being around. I still enjoy her, and even more so for the past month after I came out to her. For the first time in my life, I feel that I have someone who knows me completely and loves me for what I am. I've found out that you can't feel loved unless someone really knows you. Never had that with my parents. My fault? Their fault? Would it have been better if I had come out to them? Hell, I have no idea. I lost my dad 2 years ago. Mom still hanging in there. Good relationships with sisters and brother. Only my wife really knows me, but things are better now than ever before.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Cameron
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 2008
Messages: 70
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I love that, Macky. I love that you were able to come out to your wife and that it went so well. Mainly though, I like that you feel she knows the "real" you and still loves you just as much. That is rare and special. You are a lucky man.
I don't think there is a single person on this earth that knows the "real" me. That is my fault, of course. It is hard for me to let people in.
I admire your bravery and applaud your success. I also enjoy reading your posts.
Cameron
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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THanks Cameron. BUt if you were to be yourself with somebody, who would it most likely be?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Cameron
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 2008
Messages: 70
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There is no one, really. I have always been shy and kept to myself and it has become a habit, I suppose. I am ok with that. I do like reading about your experiences, though.;-D
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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Ah. Parents.
My father was an immigrant who married a woman 14 years his junior thinking he would get citizenship. He also played away. My mother thought she was upper class and wasn't. Both hated queers and nancy boys.
No, I don't think I'll be talking about them much here. Not in a loving way at least.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear Macky, I don't think I knew my parents. Perhaps most people don't. I don't know how to tell.
I certainly didn't tell my parents that I was gay. Most of the time I wanted to deny it to myself. But I don't think if I had they could have dealt with it. They would have had to ignore it.
My mother found some letters written to me by Jack and (of course) read them. Then she tore them up and burned them. Then she taxed me with them saying you do realise they were love letters? (To which I replied that I did.) I think that must have been in 1961 when I was 26!
They were never spoken of again! She died in 2001.
I have no idea whether she told my father about them or anything about it. He never mentioned it. Should I find my parents' behaviour odd?
One (possibly) good thing about their inability to address emotional or sexual questions was that I think neither I nor my brother had many inhibitions about doing what came naturally. He turned out straight, that's all.
Love,
Anthony
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Cameron, You sound like me when I was in my 20s. I was alone and pretty much free. The complete freedom was very nice. But the lonliness really got to me sometimes. So much so, that I would go out and find a guy to sleep with, just for his company. Sometimes I really wasn't into sex...just the need to be with someone. That is all behind me now and I love a lot and feel loved even more. I am very lucky.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Macky, I had a good chuckle at your idea of what is fun, especially considering what appears at the bottom of all of Timmy's posts (whatever that addendum thingy is called). So that the reader doesn't have to exit and bring up one of his posts I'll copy it below.
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
I think Timmy actually believes the above and from comments he has made it may be accurate for himself, but it certainly isn't accurate for everyone or even the majority of people, perhaps not even for the majority of gays. We've all read stories where a gay kid comes out to his parents and they respond with “That's OK son, we're here to support you and love you unconditionally.” That doesn't happen just in fiction, it happens in real life too.
My father, like myself, was a quiet man while my mother ran our family and was the disciplinarian. She had a heavy hand and you knew when you had been spanked and, yes, sometimes her punishment was excessive. My sisters say that in this day she would be guilty of child abuse. There are a couple of instances I can recall that I would agree with that assessment because she lost her cool and went way overboard.
Since she drove a school bus during our pre-teen and teen years our summers were filled with activities with our mother (with our friends included) and we all have many fond memories of fun-filled adventures. For instance, for several summers she took 8 to 10 teenagers to a resort island for a week or two. I won't say she was unique but I don't know of any other mother who would do such a thing.
My mother was also a very domineering person. The funny thing is that she ended up with three very independent children. Though she continued to try to dominate us as adults she didn't succeed with any of us. Besides strength and independence my parents also instilled within us a good set of values. It is true that, in part, I am the person I am because of my parents, but I would never say that they fucked me up.
I believe that parenting is the most difficult job there is; also the most rewarding and the most thankless, at the same time. We read in the news everyday about people who fail miserably as parents, we seldom hear about the vast majority who succeed wonderfully.
JimB
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I Felt I just had to comment:-P . I have really been considering telling someone in my family that I'm gay. My eldest sister is the person I can talk to the most freely and share the most of my (very liberal) views with, but I don't really speak to her or even sms her for months at a time. Thats probably not good and I don't have any excuses, I guess I might subconsiously be trying to burn all bridges with my family.
I even have a strong suspicion that she and the girl she has lived with since the beginning of university and now the two years afterward are partners. I have nothing concrete to base this on, except my sometimes malfunctioning gaydar and little, indefinite clues that seem to permiate their relationship. Oh, and the fact that my boyfriend swears blind he has seen them together at the Gat, an infamous local gay and lesbian dancing place. I guess I'll probably come out to her first, if I come out to my family at all.
Just months before my parent's nasty divorce, I was visiting my grandmother with my mother, while my father stayed at the house I lived in. During that time he called and alledged (Ive never found out for sure)that the pc at home had been broken and wanted to fix it so he could chat on it. Since I had the only administrator account at the time, he called and wheedled my password out of me. After taking it in to fix, he called, claiming that he had found pornography (yes - the gay kind) on the computer, which there probably was at that time, I cannot now recall how much or how explicit. He never even hinted at the fact that the pornography contained men, or that it was gay-oriented, and to this day I'm not sure if he might then have discovered that I was gay. In any case, that was probably the last argument, or comunication concerning anything real, that we ever had untill last year. And even that was a whole lot of nothing. I strongly doubt that if he thought I was gay at that point, that he discussed it with anyone else, ever. Or even thought about it himself. From what little interaction I can remember from him when I was young and he wasn't working, I know he was (I have no idea whether he has changed) bigoted, extremely racist and generally discrimanatory towards all minorities, even gays whenever he happened to see one on television. So I have had no really "bad" interactions with him over it.
Some carefull Googleing, and round the bend searching has revealed that he has maried again, and I discovered through Facebook which highschool his new wife's first marriage's second eldest child attends, and since her profile claims that she still lives at home with her mother and drives to school daily, and I assume my father lives with his new wife I can postulate to within a couple miles where he now lives, which, interestingly, is in a small town in Florida, USA. Maybe I'll go visit if I ever go past there. Though I doubt it.
Looks like Im disecting my entire family, but I think it might be necesary. The sad thing is, not one of them knows anything real about me, it seems, not really, and I know I have to shoulder some of the blame for that. Not my favourite color, genre of music, movie, the fact that I prefer reading above television or the fact that I'm ambidextrous, and not right handed, like I found out recently they assume.
They don't even seem to realise which style of clothing I wear anymore.
In any case, enough pitying myself. Lets go on...
My younger sister. I don't really know anything about her. At all. We interact not at all above "please pass the salt" the week every three months I go to their house. I don't think she considers any of these or ANY isshues, for that matter, and is rather insulated, perhaps a little naive (no - I'm not being cruel, thats the truth) and perhaps far more influenced and sucsceptable to peer pressure than is good for anyone.
My mother, and perhaps even my maternal grandmother as well are the most complex and central persons in any consideration of my family and how they relate to the fact of my being gay. I certainly beleive that they (and despite the fact that they always disagree on seemingly every minor or some not so minor isshues, in this case they should be taken as a unit) love the person that they think I am - that has always been clear, dispite the lack of seemingly any communication of any substance over any ishue important to me, or them, ever. Perhaps I am partly to blame for this too, but we have slowly seperated and only I seemed to ever notice that my mask - practiced and perfected for over ten years now - is the only thing remaining in the relationship - a relationship based on smoke and vapor -, while I myself have changed deeply and never once altered my mask.
The biggest problem is that they are strict, absolute, Christianity first people, and I am well, not. I never was very devout even as a child, and by highschool I had become and have stayed, probably irrevocably, an atheist. Being gay - which seemed to clash with Christianity, was merely the catalist for directly and logically analising and critisizing, comparing and researching, studying and analising and even more soul searching for my religious beliefs, untill nothing was left. I think Im glad to be without religion. I don't doubt many here beleive strongly in whoever or whatever they pray to, and I understand the comfort that can give. I'm sad my family being such staunch christians aided in my losing any faith in any higher being completely. And that is probably the reason and biggest hurdle I will face in ever coming out, and I doubt my fortitude in the face of irrational and unreasoning "You are evil because my God says so. Change (Which I cant and won't) or Disapear completely to me" will be enough.
Long post again. Anyone who read all that should be congratulated, but I just thought I'd put it out there.
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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SO good to hear a good word about parents. Mine were pretty OK. Yet, I'm sure that there are parents who are a bit lacking. YOU have to feel sorry for kids who have parents who really aren't into their kids. Like, I knew a lady whose parents were diplomats. They put her in a school in Morocco and did their diplomat thing. Once, while this lady was visiting an aunt in France, rebels attacked the school in Morocco and killed everyone. Makes u wonder what some parents must be like. Yet, you just gotta love em when you have a good set!
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Timmy, I sorta knew that this would be the nature of your reply. And all that I can say is that I am sorry. My dad was just a bit of a, well, dimwit, but I am not comfortable calling him that because he was extremely intelligent in other ways. But regarding my orientation...well...he was out of it. YOur parents sound like something totally different. And you deserved better than that. And your parents probably knew it, but were too stuck in their private idioms to come down and connect with you. That is so sad. BUt could you at least agree that it was not totally their fault? They had parents too, you know. And probably theirs had even bigger hang-ups than your parents'. BUt there is nothing to save you the hurt. It's just there for you to deal with. Where they were cold stone, just be loving to those around you. That will help. YOu seem to have created quite a work of love right here. YOur parents raised you. YOu did good works. They couldn't have been all bad. Forgive them for your own sake. Love them for what they might have been. Please don't get mad. I'm only trying to console you.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Anthony,
Many decades after the fact, I am heartbroken for Jack. THe poor lad. I know his hurt. As to your mom. How sad that she was indoctrinated with such a shoddy idea of the capacity of the human being to love. How wonderful it would have been if she would have embraced and abetted Jack's feelings for you, It is always a wonderful thing to be loved. It was sad for Jack, but it is just as sad for you. Had you gotten to know him, it could have led to a totally different life for you. But living through this kind of thing has led you to a very satisfactory life too. ONce you have spent a lifetime with someone, sex matters little. With us old guys, being truly loved for what we are is ever so much better than sex. Yet, that primordial pining is still always present. Damn, how we love the guys just beyond our reach. Yet it is soooo good to be loved and to have someone to love, that we are willing to give ALL that up. Do you at least know what Jack said? I think I love him. Iyt's a beautiful story in a way.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Gee Dewald, It is so complex, that I don't know what to say. Its probably good that you are away from family for a while. Just let me tell you this from my recent experience in life. It turns out that I have never felt loved. I may well have been loved, but I have never felt loved because I had never shown my true total self to anyone. The people on this site gave me encouragement and a reason to show myself to my wife. Now, my relationship with her has skyrocketed in personal import to me. She is the only one who has really known me and loved me in spite of it all. It is a wonderful feeling. Should you desire the same for yourself, your sister sounds like she might be a super support for your life and who knows, perhaps a conduit to come closer to the rest of your family. It doesn't matter if we are gay or straight or in between. It only matters that we know, understand, and love each other. It means a whole lot. I didn't understand that until I came out. You probably won't understand it either, unless you experience it.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Wow, Dee, we've had totally opposite experiences with our respective families. I've always been close with both of my sisters and was with both of my parents until their deaths (Dad about 6 weeks ago and Mom about 18 months ago). When I was young coming out was something you didn't do. I suspect that my never marrying and constantly male house mates has provided my sisters with some clue but we've never discussed it.
I was born on my father's 26th birthday and spending our birthday together was a longstanding tradition that I made sure continued as his health declined. This June will be the first time in many years that we will not be together for our birthday.
I talk to and visit my sisters frequently and have vacationed with them many times and they know me as well as anyone does. We discuss a wide variety of topics, though I've learned not to discuss politics with my next older sister (I'm the youngest) mostly because my brother-in-law and myself are poles apart in our political views.
In essence, we've always been a close family and continue to be such. Therefore, I strongly urge you to contact your older sister; you might just find a friend.
JimB
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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I had some pretty good parents. I was given lots of trust and structure. I never told them that I am gay. But they may have had some guesses with all of my guy friends coming over to play. They rarely pried into my private life. I had them as supporters throughout my school years and perhaps as advocates for what my future had in store. Arguments? Sure but they were rare.
I guess I had it good. I am now raising my daughter as I was raised with love and compassion. I do not regret not telling them about me being gay. I really felt it was not for them to make a judgment about me or try to feel like I changed in any way.
For one of my friends with uncaring parents, I wish I had done more. I wish I had visited his house at least once. He never wanted me to visit him at his home, only that he would come over my home every Saturday for almost 3 years to hang out with me. From his description, his parents were clueless of his troubles. He defined himself as 'wrong' or 'ugly' and that brought out my compassion but the gravity of his myriad problems just kept him slightly diatant from me and slightly sad. He would often cry and I would hug him for a moment then he would push away for some reason. My mom felt his pain too and we talked about him lots. I lost contact with him after I left home for college only to find out he had died of AIDS.
So...the point? Well, my parents knew me as compassionate and caring for my friends and maybe that was cause for me to be gay? Jeez, what confusions.
Raymundo
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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One may not excuse behaviour on the basis that they may have been treated that way. We do not say "it is ok to abuse a child because the abuser was abused".
Each person is a sentient being. That person makes decisions. Mine chose to raise a china doll and root out imperfections prior to putting their doll on display.
My mother understood this before she died. I had not grown up enough to tell my father before he died in 1982.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I had a bit of a mixed bag when it came to parents and siblings.
My Mum came always found it a bit difficult to show affection ... something that eventually changed when my sister presented her with her first grandchild, and Mum is now much more emotionally open. To be fair, after my parents split when I was 13/14, she was often too tired after a full day at work and cooking etc for three kids to do much ... and doing additional freelance work to pay for foreign holidays etc was an additional drain on her.
So, I never doubted that she loved me, but in my childhood it was in a pretty remote kind of way. And she is frighteningly intelligent and intellectual, putting a value on these attributes which I was slow to outgrow.
When I came out to her - almost exactly 30 years ago - she was basically OK. She was good friends with an out gay couple who lived next door to her, so there wasn't any issue of prejudice, but she was understandably worried for me, and thought that life wouldn't be particularly easy.
Over the years she has got very relaxed about me being gay - to the point where she's made it very clear she'd like to see me find a good man, settle down, and get happily Civil Partnered (come to that, I'd pretty much like that as well!). We know we can could on each other for support, and I think have a pretty good, adult, relationship.
Both my brother and sister basically said "so what" when I came out to them. Their kids have always known that I was their "gay uncle", and it's never been the slightest problem. I'm especially close to my brother - he's probably my best friend.
My father? Ah, my father ...
Brought up in a fairly strict non-Conformist household (his father was a preacher), he felt the only way he could be acceptable to his parents was to excel. So he pushed himself ... in all the sport teams, scholarship to Oxford (where my parents met). At the end of his second year at University he went down with TB, had to spend a year in a sanitorium, and as a result never did get a Blue (awarded for representing the University at a sport). Emotionally uninhibited, he was prone to fits of violent rage ... often directed at me. He simply couldn't understand someone who was not interested in sport, and not particularly interested in conforming (from infancy onwards). His attempts to mould me into the kind of child he had been, and to fulfil his thwarted ambition by achieving sporting excellence, were doomed to failure. He expressed this in physical and other abuse ...
My parents split due to my father's philandering (he recently divorced wife number seven). I bitterly resented being forced to see him once a fortnight during my later years at school: he was "too busy" during the week, and insisted on seeing us on Saturdays. With Saturday morning school, this ate up all Saturday ... and Sunday was a day when I couldn't get into town to socialise due to the absence of buses. so I felt it as a real drag on my teenaged social life ... one of the big attractions of my first boyfriend was that he had a car!
When I came out to my Father, we had a major row. Because he was still intent on seeing his "son and heir" as a projection of himself, it was a deep blow to him. He took it, I think in retrospect, as a final personal rejection - though, of course, it was about me not about him. Anyway, we parted on bad terms, and shortly afterwards he emigrated to Canada with wife number three. There was no contact for twenty years, though my brother kept in touch with him. The first time he rang me, I didn't recognise his voice ...
After much agonising (including on here) my brother and I visited our father last summer - the first time either of us had seen him for 28 years. He's frail and elderly and probably doesn't have much longer to live. I think I managed not to have pity for him (pity is a fairly corrosive emotion!), I think I understand a bit about why he is what he is, but there is no longer any emotional connection.
On the whole, I think I was lucky. And my mother's mother and grandmother both loved me unconditionally and openly and unreservedly, which was the example of unconditional love that enabled me to survive some difficult times, and to have some understanding of how to express love as an adult. I owe them more than I can express for that.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Dear Macky,
I didn't tell you enough about Jack and so on. You don't need to feel sorry for him - at least not on account of his relationship with me. And my mother burning his letters was no more than a small hiccup. I guess I must have last seen him in the late '60s or early '70s.
He was a mature student at Oxford (probably ten years older than me - if he's alive he is well over 80 - and I don't remember how we met, but he was the 'young' companion of the Rev Harold Danter and he lived in Harold's house and when I knew him he was breaking out of the bonds of Harold - without acrimony on either side and making 'friends' of his own choice. He was one of those people with multiple skills and competence. He was reading for a chemistry degree but he was a marvellous carpenter and the stairs in 41 Thorncliffe Road in Oxford will be a demonstration of that. I think Harold was paying his university fees. He was also quite a good photographer - I'll attach a picture of me he took (omne animalia triste sunt post coitum).
And I let him take me to bed many times but we never spent a night together. I didn't love him but I liked him a lot and would never be cruel to him. Over the time I knew him he introduced me to various other friends of his and I visited him in other houses than Harold's.
Then, to my complete surprise, he got married and they had a little girl and I too had got married and I spent an afternoon with him and his daughter. I never met his wife.
He went to work in Arabia and then emigrated to Australia. I haven't heard of him for over twenty years.
Love,
Anthony
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I certainly do not excuse the behavior. I just point out that culpability can never be sorted out. We are all products of nature and nuture. These 2 and nothing else make up our sentient selves. Society at large is culpable for your parents' bad behavior. I do not like placing blame on individuals. Yes, their behaviors sometimes makes it necessary to remove them from society, but society itself is to blame for that, not the unlucky Tabula Raza that society turned into a monster. By soaking up that hurt and not hurting because you have been hurt, I believe you make society better. In a very real way each of us deserves credit for the good in society, and each of us should not try to absolve ourselves for the evils that society barfs up.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Really there is too much to tell, a life times worth to go to the trouble of weighing, it would be pointless at this late date seeing they have both moved on as has all but two of six still here.
The point is there was much good and bad from both sides real and imagined, as for the bad I forgive them and I hope they have forgiven me, I am sure we all cherish the good what ever that was to each of us, I’m not going to dwell on the bad as that would only serve to poison the rest of the life I have.
This kind of question really makes me realize how much leeway we have in how we digest all the things that go together to make us who we are.
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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Yes, Dewald, my parents, I'm glad to say were not religious. My father got deeply Roman Catholic at the age of 16 and by the time he left university had completely got it out of his system. My mother never knew what she thought. She accepted that my father was agnostic (he was never brave enough to say he was atheist) but when my father went abroad she was bullied by her mother to have me and my brother baptised. I was 4 and he was about 18 months.
I think if they had been religious it would have been very much harder for me.
Love,
Anthony
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Anthony,
That is such a sweet story. If you could remember enough detail, it would be a good one to write and share. Wouldn't it be a hoot if Jack found his way to this forum? I feel better now. Oh, but I would like to see the "post coitum" picture of you that he took....you forgot it, old man.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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OH Anthony! Be still my heart.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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NW, This whole 'coming out' thing is of special interest to me. As you know, I came out to my wife a month ago. I have come to feel such love that I never felt before. It seems to me that a person can't feel loved unless he is himself. For me anyway, when someone doesn't know that I'm gay, I just don't accept that person's love as something real. Your experience with your father shows the danger of coming out. But did coming out to your mom bring you much closer to her? In particular, did you feel more loved once she knew this about you?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Right arich, reality for each of us is what we perceive it to be, to a great extent. Our attitude shapes our perceptions. Our attitudes are formed by our upbringing and genetics. Its good when we can perceive experiences without anger, but in a spirit of accommodation and charitable love. I think my feelings regarding my family is very similar to yours.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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All people are capable of making choices. They made their choices willingly. They did not have to make the choices they made. I do not excuse them by placing the blame on society as a whole.
They made decisions that affected, hurt and damaged the child they were meant to love, nurture and protect. They were not monsters, but they were bad parents. They chose to be.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I hope to receive and be able to give love freely. The walls that have gone up might just take a lifetime to break down, but we all can certainly try. Im glad you and your wife have a closer relationship now that you both know each other more completely, and have given each other more parts of yourselves to love.
I can beleive unconditional love is something beyond the barriers of thought and understanding - something only experience can draw the curtain on.
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I can not agree with you Timmy. Not just concerning your parents, but with the placing of blame on individuals. Individuals are not responsible for their genetics or their nurture. Unless you posit the existence of a 3rd factor that composes a human being, like a soul, you can not lay blame on an individual. And if you posit a soul, then what do you base this supposition on?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Raymundo, It makes me feel so good when you tell how you consoled your sad friend. I'm sure that his life was much happier for the knowing that he had a friend who cared. JUst hearing about how you cared for him gives me a good feeling. It is interesting how you talked with your mother about his problems. Did he ever confide in you that he was gay, or was that the least of his problems? It is scarey to think that young guys are probably still going through this kind of torment.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Interesting question, Macky
I think the answer with my mother is that she was changing, and becoming more open to showing positive feelings at that point in her life anyway. So I probably felt more loved because of that. But mainly I felt that what she loved was more like how I see myself than previously.
Coming out to my father was for him so traumatic at least partly (I suspect) because it did actually if temporarily force him to confront the fact that I was a separate independent adult - not "his" anything, and certainly not cast in his image. But I cannot say that I ever felt my father loved me - though he may have loved the image of me that he had fabricated in his own mind. Many sons have a "moment of truth" with their father - this happened to be mine.
Coming out to my siblings (and for that matter, to my aunt) didn't make me feel any more or any less loved - it was just another bit of information about me. In some ways, it's a whole bunch of little things we know about people - "my favourite color, genre of music, movie, the fact that I prefer reading above television or the fact that I'm ambidextrous, and not right handed " that Dewald mentioned in his post - that count: if we don't happen to know all of these about the people we love it, isn't through concealment but because nothing has really cropped up to make it memorable. Difficult, perhaps, for those of my generation, but for my teen-aged nephew and nieces it seems to be getting that way, which is encouraging for the future.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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Individuals are 100% responsible for their own actions. Adding some form of spiritual element to this is really not relevant, surely.
If I shoot you society is not to blame. I am. If I call you names, I am responsible. Society is not.
My parents chose their course of action. Society did not choose it for them.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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No, Macky, I didn't forget. I tried to send it at too large a file size. Later I resampled the picture to make the size smaller and added it.
Love,
Anthony
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I disagree totally. We should probably end this discussion here, as I see that we are irreconcilably opposed in our beliefs on the matter.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Anthony...that picture deserves to be Real Real big!
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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So it did make you feel more loved by your mother who was the really important relationship, it seems. So for now, I sorta live by the tenet that, to really feel loved, you have to cut through the facades and be yourself. To some this might seem self-evident. It was not to me. I came out to my wife, because she was having feelings that I found her repulsive sexually. It hurt her self-image as a woman. I felt obligated to tell her the truth. Yet, what has happened since that time is totally unexpected. I feel so at ease and so close to her. It is wonderful, and totally unexpected. I find myself sitting and thinking...just what the hell happened? THen I think...if I had come out to nmy parents, would it have had a similar effect. Well, so far, I think not. It seems to be related to pre-existing feelings. And I always knew that my wife and I would be fast friends. BUt now it is so much more somehow. But then, I'm blubbering
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I can't see, perhaps understand, the point you are pursuing, though. Society does not create Fred Phelps. Society did not create Adolf Hitler. Society does not excuse either individual.
If I drive to your home and kill your child, that is not society doing that. That is me. I am doing it because I decided to. Society restrains me from doing that because,m if I am caught then society will punish me, but it is my free will and my decision to do it or not.
Society did not cause any events at all. Individuals did. Individuals do. Society is a great excuse. "We were so poor I just had to kill everyone I met and eat them" fails as an argument for the defence.
The Rwandan massacres were fine because society caused them?
The holocaust was ok. Society wanted it?
The First World War was ok. Society on both sides wanted it?
I can't see that at all. Individual men and women decided. And they are responsible for their actions.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"I can't see, perhaps understand, the point you are pursuing, though. Society does not create Fred Phelps. Society did not create Adolf Hitler. Society does not excuse either individual."
YOu give absolutely no proof that society did not create them. Why should I take your pronouncements as valid?
"If I drive to your home and kill your child, that is not society doing that. That is me. I am doing it because I decided to. Society restrains me from doing that because,m if I am caught then society will punish me, but it is my free will and my decision to do it or not."
You have no free will. You are not an individual. You are a facet of society. You can decide only in accord with your genetic heritage and your upbringing and these do not eminate from "YOU". There is no you. Nature and nurture determine all. If you kill, you must be removed from society. However, the blame for your deed is not on you, but upon the society that formed you.
"Society did not cause any events at all. Individuals did. Individuals do. Society is a great excuse. "We were so poor I just had to kill everyone I met and eat them" fails as an argument for the defence."
It may fail in a legal argument. But that is as an expedient in a society that demands that blame be fixed on the individual; In a society that can not admit that it must adjust itself to stop criminal behavior. To halt injustice, society must recognize the monsters it has produced, study the mechanism by which it has produced them, and rectify itself to cease producing them.
The Rwandan massacres were fine because society caused them?
They were not fine. But society is at fault. That includes you and me. Do not be so quick to point your finger away from yourself. We are all part of society and we all should own up to how, either by sin of commission or of omission, we contributed to these types of atrocities.
"The holocaust was ok. Society wanted it?"
YOu totally miss my point. If you could stop listening to your beliefs for a second and see what I am saying it should be obvious to you. The holocaust was an atrocity. It was not the product of an individual or two but of society at large. If I were living a comfortable existence in the USA and I had the slightest insight that Jews were being exterminated in Germany, could I be excused from guilt if I did not leave my job, my family, and my all, to go and try to stop that atrocity, even at the cost of my life. Of course I would have been obligated by human decency to do that. But I probably wouldn't have. Therefore, I would have been part of the problem. I would have been culpable.
"The First World War was ok. Society on both sides wanted it?"
Society didn't want it. However, because of previous social injustices perpetrated by society itself, society was obliged to suffer it.
"I can't see that at all."
I can see that you do not see. Perhaps I do not explain myself well.
"Individual men and women decided. And they are responsible for their actions."
No. This is incorrect. There is no individual. There is a ramification of society. None of us leads a separate existence devoid of social influences. NOne of us deserves to be lauded for the good wrought at our hand. None of us deserves to be condemned as evil because evil was perpetrated by our hands. We are all the products of our society. We are products of nuture and nature. This is all societal and not at all individual. If you say there is some individual element to our existence, then you must tell me what that is? What makes us individuals? A soul? A spirit? Well, prove it? IN the end, you will find that nothing makes us individuals and that we are all in this together. Intimately bound and unseparable. ONly the all-knowing God of the legends could tell us where true culpability lies....and even then...it would probably not lie with an individual.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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Macky,if it was that simple back in the 70s. But no one close to me talked about homosexuality or being gay, even my friend. He confided in me of just that his brother was gay. About his problems, he just often let it pass or cried. Mom was just caring for him as best she could by allowing him to visit as often as he pleased. He never wanted to sleep over but I would have said yes if he did ask at least once. The hindsight of the past is glaring and I can now see some signs that there was more than having a gay brother or having uncertainties of him self, like pushing away from the hug.
Also, being and growing within the Mexican culture, it made growing up gay a little bit harder. There were no gay Mexicans a boy like me that could look up to. Gang membership, joining the high school football team or joining the Army were the initations of passage in my hometown.I wished my friend could have stayed away from drugs which he later was heavily into.
Love as always,
'Mundo
Raymundo
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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If those who commit evil cannot be held responsible for their actions why should I, as an individual within society be held responsible?
If you want to take the deterministic angle and say "people don't actually make choices they are shaped by external actors", then you have to admit that those external actors ALSO cannot be held accountable for their actions.
Society does not exist in any concrete form. But individuals do exist. If you think individuals that don't commit a crime should be punished for the actions of individuals that do commit a crime then I think you should take another look at your values.
Society is a convenient way of washing away blame and responsibility. But I believe individuals do have choice. And "society" has always flourished when it has accepted the notion of personal choice and personal responsibility. Even if "choice" is delusional we function better when we believe in it than when we do not.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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It's okay to feel angry towards your parents, timmy. Society makes you.
Macky just doesn't understand that it's not your fault to hate someone, it's society's.
And yes this is facetious. But how can you condemn anyone including timmy, Macky, if you believe that EVERYTHING is the result of society and NOTHING is the result of free choice?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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