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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > "And I am married"
"And I am married"  [message #57654] Thu, 02 July 2009 05:23 Go to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
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I've noticed a couple of people in recent posts saying they are "married" and using the term as if being married is somehow mutually exclusive or opposite to being gay. Implying that marriage only exists in heterosexual relationships.

Obviously this is not the case anymore in certain jurisdictions and if marriage is seen as a ceremony rather than a legal thing then marriage was never exclusively heterosexual.

But would it be possible to perhaps monitor our own English use so that we're not implying that marriage says something about sexuality. I'm sure we all agree that the two are independent, but sometimes the way the word is used implies something different.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Get over it.  [message #57657 is a reply to message #57654] Thu, 02 July 2009 06:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Location: UK, in Devon
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Messages: 13739



Those of us who are gay and are married grew up in very different times from you and generations behind you. We often had to get married because being gay was wholly unacceptable, even illegal.

It's time that current generations stopped this political correctness of terminology. Speaking only for myself I am heartily sick of being told to modify my language to suit the rather lily-livered sensibilities of the current embryo ruling class.

I had to put up when I was a kid with knowing that I was queer, a pouf, a nancy boy, a pansy, a pervert, disgusting.

I don't much care as a part of this discussion whether gay folk can marry or not. I don't see it as at all relevant. You seem to be out and proud. I'm still struggling not to run back to the closet. And yes, I'm married. Only you seem to interpret this as mutually exclusive to homosexuality.

Me? Back in the nineties, online, I got given hell for being gay and also being in a heterosexual marriage. Now I get told to moderate my language. I have to deal with the vertically challenged (short), educationally challenged (fuckwits), weight challenged (fat bastards), emotionally challenged (sad bastards). I'm not allowed to call a black man "black" or "nigger" despite black men calling themselves "black" and "nigger" and I meet pale pink namby pamby do gooders everywhere. Apparently I am not allowed to run them over because that is political discrimination.

I can't compliment a lady on her clothes in case that is sexual harassment. As an employer I can't ask the obviously heavily pregnant interviewee if she has sorted out her child care arrangements because that is sexual discrimination and I can't refuse her the job because she will bugger off to give birth in 20 seconds because that is also illegal (even though I know she is just opposite me in order to take me to the cleaners in a discrimination suit).

The answer is a resounding "NO!"

I'm gay. I'm married. Some folk are. Get over it



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: "And I am married"  [message #57661 is a reply to message #57654] Thu, 02 July 2009 07:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

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Saben wrote:
>I'm sure we all agree that the two are independent…<

No, we do not all agree. Please don't try and put words and their changed meanings into our mouths.

Hugs
N



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: "And I am married"  [message #57662 is a reply to message #57654] Thu, 02 July 2009 08:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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Yes, Saben, the word 'marriage' is changing in the sense that in some places gay people may marry. And that makes it unsafe to assume all marriages are between a man and a woman, so if one wants to be understood one has to be careful how one expresses oneself.

But it is usually a mistake to try to lay down the law how to use words. The French have been trying for a long time but they fail. If you call a computer 'un ordinateur' you will not be misunderstood but 'computer' is universal.

And for old people, like me, who have never lived in or visited a place where gay marriage was legal, it is easy to use the word the old way.

In the end it is the way the language is used that changes the entry in the dictionary and I'm in favour of the change. Indeed it may help to make the 'mistake' of calling 'civil partnerships' marriages.

Love,
Anthony
Re: Get over it, Timmy, please.  [message #57663 is a reply to message #57657] Thu, 02 July 2009 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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Dear Timmy, why so cross? We are only talking about the way a word is used. I know you have had a hard time.

I seem to have come out of it better than most although sex between men was punishable by law in UK until I was almost 34.

And I agree with you that politically correct reformulations of plain language are regrettable and sometimes laughable but rarely worth getting cross about.

I think your hard line may do you more harm than good. If you laugh at it you may also help to send it away too.

Love,
Anthony
Get over it  [message #57664 is a reply to message #57663] Thu, 02 July 2009 09:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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So I am not entitled to be cross about attempts to change things I disagree with?

Hard time? Not really relevant, not really hard.

Some of us are gay and married. We happen to be married to women. I'm damned if I am going to apologise for my use of language just because someone else thinks that might be a good idea.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: "And I am married"  [message #57667 is a reply to message #57654] Thu, 02 July 2009 09:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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An interesting and very valid point, Saben.

I rather find that if someone aged over about 50, who I know to be gay, tells me they are "married", my immediate assumption is that it's to a woman.

If someone aged under about 40, who I know to be gay, tells me they are "married", my immediate assumption is usually that it's to another man.

In either case, of course, further information can supply any necessary correction to my initial assumption.

But "married gay men" - in the sense of married to a woman - has been a rather distinct group, with some sense of self-identity, for at least two or three decades. I think we need to recognise that: while I can't offhand think of an alternate form of words for that group, I'm sure that pushing a change to the way "married" is used risks coming across as an attack on a sometimes-painfully-achieved condition of self-knowledge. Probably best to let a replacement term emerge naturally, before starting to insist that "marriage" does not imply "heterosexual marriage".

As an aside, I think it's currently only four countries that permit same-sex full marriage, as opposed to some kind of formal partnership that is taken as being functionally equivalent to (and informally called) marriage.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Get over it  [message #57669 is a reply to message #57664] Thu, 02 July 2009 16:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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I hope to be gay and married one day, too, though.

But "gay and married" to me means a very different thing to the way I've seen "gay and married" used here recently...

Because I can be gay and gayly married. Use of "gay and married" to imply "gay but married to a woman" basically precludes the notion of gay marriage.

That is quite offensive when I believed you to be someone supportive of the notion of gay marriage.

I believe it's important for people not to assassinate causes they support through language.

Using "gay" as an antonym for "married" seems to imply the two can't go together and seems to imply that the illegality of gay marriage should continue as marriage is purely heterosexual in nature.

You can continue language however you see fit. I'm no language policeman and I'm quite opposed to a lot of forms of political correctness. But I do think it's important to evaluate the language we use and see if it does truly represent how we think and feel (rather than just being a trained reflex).

I try to do the same but admit I fail on a regular basis. I just raised this issue, because well, to be honest I found it strange that on a gay website where most people (assumedly) are in favour of gay marriage such a large number of people are using the term marriage as a denoting something purely heterosexual.

"Gay and married to a woman" should, in my mind, always carry the obligatory clause "to a woman". Unless one truly seeks to preclude the notion of gay marriage.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: "And I am married"  [message #57670 is a reply to message #57661] Thu, 02 July 2009 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Not going to get into a lengthy debate on the nature of historical marriage.

But I guess there are still some, even on a gay forum, that believe marriage is exclusively heterosexual. Much as there are still some that believe marriage is a matter of ownership even in the west.

It was, I guess, a little presumptuous. But for those of us who DO believe marriage and sexuality are independent I think it's important to ensure that our word choices do not reinforce the idea of marriage being having an intrinsic relationship with sexuality.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: "And I am married"  [message #57671 is a reply to message #57662] Thu, 02 July 2009 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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I'm not trying to lay down the law. But raise, in a sense, awareness. It's easy to use words in "typical" ways without thinking about what they imply.

I prefer a descriptive approach to language to a prescriptive approach, however that doesn't mean I think it's okay to just accept certain uses of language. Sometimes language changes naturally and other times it needs a little nudge.

In Japanese the word for foreigner is literally "outside person"- even if the person has lived in the country for decades. I think it's important to be aware of the connotations that word has and as a foreigner in Japan I try to avoid using a term that labels me an "outsider".



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: "And I am married"  [message #57672 is a reply to message #57667] Thu, 02 July 2009 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Messages: 1537



"Straight-married gay men"?
"Gay men married to women"?

I'm not trying to trivialise what people have gone through. I acknowledge that it can't have been easy in the past. It's still hard being gay, but it must have been almost impossibly moreso in the past.

But it really does undermine gay marriage when gay people themselves are basically saying "all marriage is hetero"... That is not, nor does it need to be the case. Even if gay marriage isn't legal, legal marriage is only one part. Identification of marriage status is just as important, in my opinion.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Get over it  [message #57673 is a reply to message #57669] Thu, 02 July 2009 16:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



I believe in human rights and joint civil unions akin to heterosexual marriage. I believe that the worst possible tactic that the gay movement ever used was to try to claim the word "marriage", and I do not believe in the marriage of a man to a man or a woman to a woman currently.

Seeking to claim the word alienated all the religious nutbars. It is a word too far. You ought to recall my post about this some time ago. Gay people want equality of action. What a stupid way to go about getting that seeking to claim the word "marriage" was. It created winners and losers. It gave Arnold Schwarzeniggle the excuse he needed to outlaw it. Great tactic. Lose the battle AND the war

Over time language may evolve to encompass use in any circumstance. At present it does not.

I see your aims as laudable and misguided. That it may be intellectually correct does not make it emotionally correct. I am gay and married. I married when the only person I could marry was female. You can say whatever you like. But you are dealing with people. With me you lose.

[Updated on: Thu, 02 July 2009 16:49]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Get over it  [message #57675 is a reply to message #57673] Thu, 02 July 2009 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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But was trying to claim the word "marriage" just a tactical mistake? Or do you truly believe that heterosexual marriage is or should be somehow different or special when compared with a homosexual "union"?

I mean, in terms of the word I'm personally quite happy to keep the word referring to the traditional form of marriage and have ALL LEGAL relationships recognised as unions. I am not happy to have different words based on sexuality and to have the different words both recognised by government.

I imagine that my proposal of abolishing legally recognised heterosexual marriage would be met with even more hostility than recognising gay marriage. Even though in reality it should be an option that appeals to the core arguments of BOTH sides.

So in the mean-time I support gay marriage. I'll settle for unions, but I'll call my relationship a marriage. I believe that marriage is a state of mind and there are gay marriages that out date the legalisation of gay marriage.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Get over it  [message #57676 is a reply to message #57675] Thu, 02 July 2009 16:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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The WORD is unimportant except to those to whom it is important.

Care about equal rights, equal benefits, hospital visitation rights, inheritance of property, pensions, all of those things. Care and campaign for them with pretty much every decent thinking person's blessing.

But why try to invade the heterosexuals' space by trying to grab their word? Let them have it. Be charitable. Why alienate them? They are in the majority, and they TOLERATE us. They don't welcome us. We're queer. They think we're not natural and perverts, yes, EVEN the ones who say different.

Tactical mistake?

It was an enormous strategic error. Tub thumping about a word alienates the very people who could be converted to tolerance.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Get over it  [message #57678 is a reply to message #57676] Thu, 02 July 2009 17:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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I guess I'm something of a sexual revolutionary in my views.

I don't want to just have the heterosexual (sic) majority tolerate me. I want to, as much as possible, fight against the very foundation of sexuality and gender as it's constructed in modern society.

The laws changing to give me certain privileges is nice. But that isn't really what I'm interested in. I want to win the battle of ideas as much as the legal battle.

In reality it is hard to change people's minds. But I hope that my approach to life at least has an impact on my friends, family and those close to me.

And while the battle for gay marriage, including the word, may have protracted the battle I think in the end it's going to be won and it will be won on the gay marriage advocates' terms. The majority (60%) of Australians support the legalisation of same sex marriage specifically. It really is becoming and inevitability. The battle of ideas is being won which means the legal battle will easily follow. At least in Australia, but I presume elsewhere as well. The battles elsewhere may take longer, but like decriminalisation of homosexuality in India, eventually they too will be won.

[Updated on: Thu, 02 July 2009 17:16]




Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: "And I am married"  [message #57679 is a reply to message #57654] Thu, 02 July 2009 21:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jon is currently offline  jon

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Registered: May 2009
Messages: 5



Hi Saben,

this is a chat forum, we are not sitting a masters degree.

when people chat you need to allow some flexibillity in the flow.

if people are married so what gay people marry women and guys, it's up to each of us who we shack up with.

i am married and bi is that wrong, i also could say i am gay and in the closet is that wrong.
No it is our choice yes.
i have kids, and i live with a women and i am married, but i also see guys.
so it's all upto the individual person, we dont judge
i dont get upset because of a statement that i dont agree with, nor should you have mentioned it
Re: "And I am married"  [message #57680 is a reply to message #57679] Thu, 02 July 2009 21:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Messages: 1537



I don't mind that people are married to women and gay. Not at all.

The point is that people I recognise as tolerant and in favour of gay rights are making statements that imply that all marriage is heterosexual. I thought that needed to be highlighted.

I wasn't trying to silence anyone... Merely point out that language use can often convey things that aren't intentional.

But, "nor should you have mentioned it"? Surely if people can choose to use language as they wish I can choose to comment on the language used.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Get over it  [message #57683 is a reply to message #57678] Thu, 02 July 2009 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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Yes, Saben, I think as you do. And when I was a young homosexual the word gay meant lighthearted and cheerful and the change is proof that words can change their meaning. And life-partner is too long and is, furthermore, proleptic!

Love,
Anthony
Re: Get over it  [message #57684 is a reply to message #57678] Thu, 02 July 2009 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Messages: 13739



Germaine Greer was a sexual revolutionary. Kinsey was a sexual revolutionary. Xaviera Hollander was a sexual revolutionary.

I rather think you are someone who wants to change the vocabulary of partnership.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Get over it  [message #57689 is a reply to message #57684] Thu, 02 July 2009 22:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1558



timmy wrote:

> I rather think you are someone who wants to change the vocabulary of partnership.

Whether we like it (as I do) or not, the "vocabulary of partnership" has already changed for many people: even among those older than I am it's not uncommon (my 79-year-old mother happily refers to the gay couple living next door to her as "married", and the legal event at which they formalised the relationship as a "wedding" rather than "CP"). For my friends & family (most of whom are straight) significantly younger than me - say under the age of 40 - "married" is used, to cover any-and-all permutations of religious marriage, civil marriage, and civil partnership.

Personally, I'm delighted that it's so.

I can't fully support quite everything Saben says, however - I do think there's a distinction to be drawn between a state-registered and approved purportedly-permanent relationship, and one that is not so recognised (living together, the mythical common law marriage, or whatever).



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Get over it  [message #57692 is a reply to message #57689] Fri, 03 July 2009 06:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Location: UK, in Devon
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Messages: 13739



I am quite content that vocabulary evolves. What riles me is the attempt to force me to change things.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Revolutionary  [message #57698 is a reply to message #57684] Fri, 03 July 2009 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Perhaps I should have said "radical". Revolutionary implies achieving something. Radical just implies being "out there".



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Revolutionary  [message #57699 is a reply to message #57698] Fri, 03 July 2009 11:07 Go to previous message
timmy

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Location: UK, in Devon
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Messages: 13739



You might be 'amused', then, to read the reference to a sexual radical in the review of this rather self serving book: http://www.jpands.org/hacienda/horowitz.html

This leftist person, Horowitz, seems somewhat anti-gay.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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