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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Below is my original comment. Please, someone, tell me why this released such a spate of vitriol?
They certainly are fun to watch. I grew up on a farm, and it brings to mind letting a calf out to pasture for it's first year. The calf will kick up its heels and dance about in pure enjoyment of the outdoors.
I am somewhat troubled by this clip though. Do you think that this sequence might have been orchestrated by an adult and not depict the natural state of boys at play? I couldn't help but notice that they shed clothes as they played.
It just doesn't seem natural to me that boys would do this when there were brush burns to be had in a serious spill.
My concern is that these boys will recognize themselves or be recognized sometime in the future and regret taking part in this scene. I mean its not pornographic or anything, but were the boys influenced to do something that they might regret in the future? I just hope that none of the lads feels self-conscious about this sequence in the future. I just worry that a clip like this might be made by someone taking advantage of the boys' youth and suggestability, to lead them to do something that they would not have done without the guidance.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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The second and third, now third and fourth paragraphs, which introduced the concept of "gosh, they may be boys but what if they've been coerced... This might be abuse" stuff. And the "they're taking their clothes off" stuff.
It added a puritan morality and a concept that was absolutely absent when I posted the clip. It removed at a stroke any fun that there was. It painted anyone who enjoyed or was amused by the clip as an abuser, a child molester. It meant that "any right thinking person had to agree".
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Those were not the feelings I sought to promulgate. I was not saying anything about anyone except myself. The point I wanted to make is that the film made me feel that I might be abetting exploitation. My concern is not to put down anyone at all. There's not a person on this forum that I do not feel some measure of affection for. I don't always agree with everything, but I always give serious thought to what folks say. And I always enjoy the discussion.
My concern is that I fear that boys might be taken advantage of and hurt by unscrupulous people putting their images on the web. I'm just like everyone else on this forum and I have no room to criticize anyone. I take great joy in watching young boys. I feel a certain love for them all. They are wonderful and they make me smile. They are precious to me and the thought of any one of them being taken advantage of hurts my heart. To me, hurting a boy is like putting an arrow into the beautiful white unicorn of mythology. I am truly honestly concerned about the welfare of the boys I see on the internet. I want them to develop naturally. I don't want them to be influenced by thinking of themselves as sex objects for adults to enjoy. I have severely limited the teen boy blogs etc that I visit on the web. Most of the time I can't tell if they are something that has the potential to harm the boys shown or not. But I choose to err on the side of caution, because I fear supporting someone who might be taking advantage of the boys. I don't want to support that with my clicks. I wrote the comment in hopes that someone could give me some guidance as to how I could determine weather a blog or whatever has any potential to harm. I want to be responsible in what I look at on the internet. Simply put the question is "How do we use the web responsibly regarding images of children?"
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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No, no, Timmy! I am a right-thinking person and I do not agree. I enjoy watching grandchildren naked in the paddling pool and it is a (mild) disappointment when they get shy and put swimming things on.
I've just come back from a holiday where we shared a cottage where the only lavatory was in the bathroom. The only person who locks the door is Tom (aged 12). All the adults are quite happy to let other people use the loo when they are in the bath or to use the loo themselves when others are in the bath.
As an 'out' nudist I really want to scotch the notion that nakedness is somehow bad. It is altogether a bad idea to bring up children so that they don't know what people really look like.
And of course the best way to get prurient about it is to avoid ever seeing anyone naked or being seen naked. Sadly the curators of the Oxford University Parks closed down 'parson's pleasure' many years ago.
But many more places such as Brighton have clothes-optional beaches.
Love,
Anthony
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Macky a click is such a small degree of support that I don't rate it.
I would draw the line at paying for pictures that are explicitly sexual.
I LIKE looking at naked people and see no reason why I should be the least ashamed of it.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Er, yes. I think that means that you do agree, doesn't it? With me, I mean?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky wrote:
Those were not the feelings I sought to promulgate... The point I wanted to make is that the film made me feel that I might be abetting exploitation... My concern is that I fear that boys might be taken advantage of and hurt by unscrupulous people putting their images on the web... I take great joy in watching young boys... and the thought of any one of them being taken advantage of hurts my heart... I don't want them to be influenced by thinking of themselves as sex objects for adults to enjoy... I wrote the comment in hopes that someone could give me some guidance as to how I could determine weather a blog or whatever has any potential to harm... Simply put the question is "How do we use the web responsibly regarding images of children?"
Macky, only just now did I get round to watching that film. I can see absolutely nothing in it that is problematic, obscene or worse. It's just a bunch of Russian kids larking around and enjoying themselves. Certainly, to my mind, in this case any prurience is in the eye of the beholder.
You say that the tone of the thread was not the message that you wanted to promulgate: and then you just repeated you claims all over again! There are some phrases in your message, that I have quoted above, that give me pause for concern. I cannot see into your soul; but you can. Look deeply into yourself and ask yourself whether there is not some pedophilic kernel there.
I know that there are many decent people who have some kind of fixation on young boys: look at "Lost and Found". But most such people just like looking at the boys or the pictures, or using their fertile imagination, and do not try to excuse their predilections with concerns such as you raised. (I could be wrong here, because personally I have no erotic predilection for young boys, so I am rather ignorant about this.)
In the content of your message (above) I perceive some feelings of guilt. Maybe I am completely wrong. However, in short, my answer to your ultimate question is simple: don't visit any such sites and blogs. "What the eyes don't see the heart won't grieve about." My further advice - FWIW - is to let the issue drop now, to refrain from response and to move on to other things.
In friendship,
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Timmy, My memory hearkens back to when you told me my "stand up and be counted on the side of those" remark in an old thread had no place in that discussion. I do not see this as a battle to divide POS into Macky and Timmy factions. My only concern is for the welfare of the kids whose images are shown on the web. Surely, you are concerned that none of them be harmed too. Aren't you?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I am concerned to encourage true independent thought. "Harm" is a noun that has many shades of meaning.
Is a child that enters into prostitution in order to eat the more harmed by that or by starvation if he or she did not?
Do the morals of one nation fit every nation?
Am I harmed if I place an image of me, naked, on this site only to see it spread globally?
What of a naked child? Is that image truly harming the child?
Do we really care if people use us as fantasies for masturbation?
Does society not harm its children by screaming "abuse" at every possible moment and then wrapping them in soft towels to protect them?
[Updated on: Tue, 21 July 2009 15:15]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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JFR,
Yes I feel guilty. Is it responsible of me not to speak up when I feel that there is a possibility that a child might be hurt by something? I already carry around guilt for not exposing an abusive priest that I knew. If I think that something might be wrong, don't I have an obligation to at least raise the question, in a non-accusatory manner? Isn't it irresponsible of me to ignore it?
But, yes, you are right. I have expressed my concern and I have to be careful not to fall into a self-righteous trap. My feelings on the original film clip have not changed. I will drop the matter for now. But I will speak up when I feel that something posted here might be harming someone. I apologize for taking so much of everyone's valuable time.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Timmy, I'm just going to abort this thing, because I see that we are headed down the same path as before. Thank you and all the others for expressing views on the matter. I apologize for any hurt feelings that anyone might have.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Thanks for the suggestion Anthony.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Why would it have gone any differently the second time around?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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The only person who locks the door is Tom (aged 12).
And I think if my experience as a 12 year old is any indication we can all guess why that may be  )
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I think we'd be more harmed if you were to place an image of yourself, naked, on this site only to see it spread globally. )
Just kidding, timmy. Love ya and I agree that nudity is harmless.
In my opinion nudity harms no-one... Children being naked, being filmed naked, even being used as fetish fuel only harms them if they find out about it and even then only if they are socially conditioned to let themselves be harmed...
In a different society a child might actually be complimented by someone finding them attractive, rather than being scared and creeped out by it. I'd argue that despite the paedophile witch hunter there definitely ARE teens that would appreciate being someone's fap-fuel.
So again, your mileage may vary. I don't think there's a reason to care about non-obviously exploitative material. If it doesn't look exploitative, if it doesn't sound exploitative, then it's probably not exploitative. The goats and gods video is a far cry from some drugged up pre-teen tied down and being penetrated by an adult penis.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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Over in the USofA, we're still a hypocritical people. I admitted to my hyprocracy to enjoying the vid and still keeping intact my professional attitudes. I've learned quite a lesson about nudity and children. I guess I need to grow up.
Raymundo
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I have been asked to place this comment here by someone who has been watching but chooses not to contribute personally. I place it here as requested, but not to signify that I agree with or disagree with his comments, which must be attributed to my unnamed correspondent. I was not sure where in this thread to place this post, so may have chosen well or badly. You will note, I hope, that this is not a personal attack on Macky, though, at first reading, it could be construed to be one. I believe he is being identified as one of the symptoms of his culture rather than as an individual to blame.
BEGINS
It is readily apparent that Macky has an imbued sense of homophobic reactions to even the simplest and most innocent of activities which by all standards to the contrary of his American culture and conditioning are considered normal in the rest of the world. This is akin to pointing a finger and screaming "pedophile or child molester" at the producer of that short.
Furthermore, I would say that his very perceptions of what he sees as exploitative circumstances in that short video would lend credence to the thought that there are quite obviously deeper psychological issues at play. His reaction is "over-the-top" and quite frankly makes one wonder if he himself has been abused or exploited in a fashion that would merit such reaction on his part. Or, possibly he may have other conflicts within himself.
Those Russian boys were doing nothing that should merit any kind of negative reaction or bear connotations of a sexually abusive circumstance. However, when one lives in a culture such as Macky's that has become an environment where even innocent activities can be rapidly misconstrued as something by far more sordid, then maybe his reaction might be labeled as appropriate.
Either way, there remains this final fact: IoMfAtS.org is a site that is devoted to Gay specific issues that involve youth, adults, in a variety of settings. If one is so uncomfortable with frank discussions that pertain to such a site as this, then one might avail themselves of the “Back” button on their browser and go elsewhere. A fairly simple and straightforward solution.
I cannot see where Tim is providing any element of written or visual material that would actively advocate pedophilia (behaviors) or sexual abuse of children. If anything, all I've witnessed is frank discussions and sincere offers of assistance by a group of brilliant folk towards others on the site.
ENDS
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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There we have the point, I think. The tightrope of decision regarding exploitation is not easy, yet what is and is not exploitative is often obvious.
I agree wholeheartedly that one is stated today to have been exploited if one has been made to feel exploited or a victim (phrasing is messy because it is catch 22). I blame our societies for that, especially the prurient interests of the media which goes to great lengths to find a victim to be the hook on which their stories are hung.
I know two people who are forever searching the internet for pictures of themselves in younger days that they would prefer not to be online. But neither of them is recognisable from the pictures (I say this not having seen them, but knowing the age they are now and the age they were then).
Having discussed this with them they each agree to differing degrees that the search is a part of their trying to shed the role of "victim". For my part I wish they had received better advice. I can't fault their search based on the way they feel today, the more so since the pictures were of real abuse, but I can wish that the pictures had been allowed to become irrelevant. These were exploited boys.
I would be bemused if someone took a picture of me, clothed or naked, to their hearts as a masturbatory fantasy. I've been thinking hard about how I would feel about it simply because the thought has been raised here. I'm vain enough to like the idea, but I think I might not want to go to a "we wank over timmy's pictures" convention as guest of honour!
[Updated on: Wed, 22 July 2009 07:43]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I'm pretty sure that isn't correct, Saben. Our family develops late.
Love,
Anthony
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Benji
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: August 2007
Messages: 297
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I'm not sure what the fuss is all about, I've seen kids do similar things here in my home town in Vegas. Came home from work one day and on my own street was startled to see a teen boy skateboarding in broad daylight on the sidewalk jumping a small ramp totally naked. He had died his hair a deep red, all of it, his girlfriend and a couple of others were sitting on the sidewalk being very nonchalant about it all. I've seen skateboarders and bike riding kids doing the same thing as seen on that G_d & Goat clip you've shown. I assumed it was a fad intended to shock us older people, I'm a little too old to shock nowadays. Did I take a 2nd look? Yes, but I didn't stick around as I just went home and told the wife about it. I think some people may be reading too much into this, obviously by the debate it caused here.
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Bless you Benji,
I just wanted to let you know that the anecdote that you posted above really hit my funny bone. I laughed till I cried. It was mostly the way you worded it or something. But the picture I get when I imagine the naked little skateboarder boy, risking life and limb and ass, hurtling down the street, as his girlfriend and sister look away disinterestedly. Even the scarlet hair failed to impress!! LOL...OMG...ROFL!
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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