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You ask two quaetions, Timmy.
What to do with the arsewipes (I'd never wipe a donkey) - ignore them until they get in my face and then tell them they are wrong.
How can we? Well obviously we can't but how to prove it? How can we exclude the possibility that you and I are on top of an iceberg of married gay men and that the underwater part have never realised and never will and would say their lives are an unqualified success?
It's ludicrous but I do think it's unproveable.
Love,
Anthony
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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I tend to agree with ignoring the ignorant. In Santa Clarita, there resides a conservative commmunity which supports anti everything imaginable. It would be too harmful if I tried to joust with some of my neighbors. They know me and I know them and the truce holds for not talking about hot topics. One day the truce could break. I feel I'll be ready. I could use some of your feistiness, Tim.
Raymundo
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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How can sexual orientation be changed if nobody even knows what causes a person to be attracted to the same or opposite sex. The fact that 10% of men seem to be homosexual makes it seem like it must be genetic. They've been researching that for years to no avail. Maybe genetics just leads to a predisposition and there must be environmental causes in addition to it. Here's some ideas I've had about it.
1. What if the genetics are such that 10% of males get the same pheromone
receptor for men that women normally get. Pheromones are chemicals that have a direct impact on the brain, and there is a lot of research that says that this is why sexes are attracted to each other.
2. For me in particular, I can't help but thing that early experience has something to do with it. I have mentioned here before that when I was 4 or 5, an older boy of maybe 15 or 16 liked me. He took me for rides oh his bike, where I would smear my face into the back of his t-shirt and breathe in the smell of his body, while I had my arms wrapped around his waist. I loved the way he smelled. This boy also used to have me remove all my clothes out of one pretense or another. I can't recall him ever touching me, but even at this young age, it was obvious that he greatly enjoyed looking at my naked body when we were in a cabin or whatever shandy he built for us. And I must say that I loved getting naked for him, because he was sort of my hero. An older boy taking an interest in a little kid was quite a head trip. That's one of my earliest sexual feelings I think. Something else about it that makes me think was the fact that he was about 3 times as old as me. In later life, I tended to gravitate towards older men. Perhaps my subconsciousness was looking to reestablish the relationship with my childhood hero. Also, the fact that he was an adolescent might have something to do with my finding the body of an adolescent boy so good looking, decades after I have left adolescence behind. I prefer chocolate over vanilla and that will never change. And I prefer males. I have no idea what makes me prefer one thing over another.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Perhaps you should get hold of the study. You seem to be arguing that it can be changed if I take your argument to the logical extreme. But a learned body has embraced the fact that it cannot be. They may not be correct, but they do seem to agree with all the true experiential reports.
No-one prevents a heterosexual person being attracted to a person of the same sex, nor a homosexual person being attracted to the opposite sex. But those instances, such as my own marriage, and very occasional admiration in more than a "What a pretty face" kind of way of a girl, are isolated instances.
You can change something without knowing what causes it. Aversion therapy can go a long way towards that. But they have been unable to change orientation (not the same as attraction) by physical methods, drug therapy, or counselling. Prayer also fails. So their conclusion appears to have a basis in reality.
[Updated on: Fri, 07 August 2009 18:51]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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johnleeb
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Toe is in the water |
Location: USA
Registered: January 2009
Messages: 44
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Those who are gay and married probably have some degree of attraction to the opposite sex.
And where religious nuts have practiced their harmful methods to persuade people (remember "A Clockwork Orange"), it has only been able to make exclusive gay people sick and may have had a minor influence on those who are bi-sexual to lean a specific way.
And, on a lighter note, I classify my self as bi-dancual (in gay and lesbian square dancing, bi-dancual people can dance either lead or follow).
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I think it highly likely that all humankind has, at some time, an attraction to a person that is "inappropriate" for their orientation. Many folk also experiment. Attractions and experimentation are not the same as orientation.
As a sample of one, I am gay. I functioned in my teens with girls, though it was more a matter of friction than romance or attraction. I surprised myself by falling in love with a girl, but I was not in lust. We made love because it was fun, not, from my perspective, because I was attracted to her sexually, though she is a great looking girl with a body to match, but because it was fun.
I think most folk will agree that an erection can be a learned response. I learned to respond to nude girlie magazines, not because the girl was inherently attractive, but because the naked image triggered my own private view of the fun of sex in my head.
Oh the Salsa is also bi-dancual. And very sensual. I also think the Cha-Cha and the Rumba can fall into this category. I can think of no other dances that are not an exclusive traditional male lead.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Feistiness? Well, I never thought I had any of that. I have just reached a contentment with myself that means I no longer choose to take the unpleasantness that some folk throw.
I am, for example, about to prick anyone's balloon if they think they can make homophobic remarks or jokes without getting a negative reaction. But I will also judge that by the company. After all, if the joke is funny then I will laugh. If it's cruel then I'll slap them down, initially gently, then, later, hard.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I have often met online a boy who has been abused and who wonders if he is gay, or has decided that he is gay because he has been abused or raped, and because his body enjoyed the physical elements whether his mind did or not I've always had trouble convincing the boy that the body is designed,m intended, to reach orgasm, and that it will just go ahead and do it whether the experience is desired or undesired. Physical sensations trigger orgasm. Add fear to that, a powerful stimulus, and orgasm while being abused is often unavoidable.
The great news is, "being abused can not make you gay."
Even the physical enjoyment of abuse cannot make you gay.
Having sex of any sort with a person of the same sex can not make you gay.
You see, if homosexuality cannot be "cured", then it cannot be "created" either. We're either stuck with being homosexual, or stuck with being heterosexual, or are someplace in between.
The thing is, while we might even enjoy a same sex coupling, we may not even be gay then! We may just have found a particular person or a particular experience that we enjoy.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I have the link to thr report for you at http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/therapeutic-response.pdf
The abstract is interesting:
The American Psychological Association Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation conducted a systematic review of the peer-reviewed journal literature on sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) and concluded that efforts to change sexual orientation are unlikely to be successful and involve some risk of harm, contrary to the claims of SOCE practitioners and advocates. Even though the research and clinical literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality, regardless of sexual orientation identity, the task force concluded that the population that undergoes SOCE tends to have strongly conservative religious views that lead them to seek to change their sexual orientation. Thus, the appropriate application of affirmative therapeutic interventions for those who seek SOCE involves therapist acceptance, support, and understanding of clients and the facilitation of clients’ active coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, without imposing a specific sexual orientation identity outcome.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I once chatted with an 18 yo guy who was worried to death that he might be gay. The thing that convinced him was that he could appreciate male beauty. It was like an obsessive compulsive thing with him. In talking to him, I found it very obvious that he was straight, but he could not get the worry about being gay out of his head. It was really sad to see someone like that. I told him that my son does cognitive therapy to learn how to control his obsessions and that that was what he seemed to need.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"You seem to be arguing that it can be changed if I take your argument to the logical extreme."
Not really Timmy. I do not consider it an argument, so I would not take it to the logical extreme. These are just ideas that I sometimes kick around in my head. But I am by no means convinced that homosexuality is somehow learned. I do hold open the possibility that there might be a genetic predisposition towards being attracted to the same sex, that might be brought to bear by life experiences. But I can't see any way for anyone to choose which sex he is attracted to. I mean you are just attracted to whatever you like. I really have no idea how one comes to be attracted to a same or opposite sex partner. So I accept the position of the paper that homosexuality is not chosen and can not be changed.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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And, once one accepts that, so many other things fall into place.
If it can't be changed it can't be acquired, for example.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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Most good teachers, leaders and people have this quality. It's why passion for any worthy cause draws such people.
Raymundo
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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That phrase "..worried to death..." is paramount to that boy's problem. There are many more worrisome episodes in a person's life in which one must deal: getting a good education, getting a good career, maintaining good health, having good circle of friends, etc. I know that people have killed themselves or have been killed or harmed because of being or being percieved gay. That's where society wants gays to be, feeling vunerable or confused and not being able to see beyond the ordinary expitations of daily life and attack the person while he or she is down. Religion is not stupid. The folks in charge see a good money making scheme in its reorientation therapy.
Macky, so you and other are correct that shagging a guy won't make a boy gay and it won't help get him an education or etc. That's the better way to offer a daily living problem like education or job rather than being worried about gayness.
Raymundo
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Well, Timmy, the message is gradually getting through. Look at this from today's Guardian:
[Love,
Anthony]
* Hillel Athias-Robles
* The Guardian, Saturday 15 August 2009
Last week the American Psychological Association adopted a resolution stating that mental health professionals should avoid telling clients that they can change their sexual orientation through therapy. It recognised that many of the clients wanting such a change were those whose religious beliefs conflicted with their sexual orientation. Among its suggestions, it proposed that therapists discuss with their religious gay and lesbian clients the possibility of joining gay-friendly congregations.
Reading this evoked memories of my journey from religious repression to religious liberation, from ultra-Orthodox Judaism, which condemns homosexuality, to its Liberal counterpart, which celebrates it.
As a young teen, I began practising – along with my family – ultra-Orthodox Judaism, which was teeming with laws. Cardinal among the prohibitions was one from Leviticus 18:22: "Thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, it is an abomination." This made my life untenable. As much as I tried to abide by every commandment, my efforts were insufficient. I knew that I was gay and that made me an abomination.
At 17 I moved to Jerusalem to study in a yeshiva, a seminary devoted to the study of the Torah. I naively hoped that by cloistering myself with sacred texts I would be miraculously purged of my deviation. Reality crushed my buoyancy – my attraction towards men intensified.
I tried to exhaust all possible means for my rehabilitation – crying, praying, fasting. When all this failed, I heard of a support group for Orthodox men struggling with homosexuality.
At the group, we were told that homosexuality was a pathology called SSA – Same-Sex Attraction. We were sick. In our meetings, and also during my private sessions with the therapist, it was said that we could only find fulfilment by marrying a woman. We needed to convert to heterosexuality, and could achieve this by adopting masculine traits and gender-appropriate attitudes, like engaging in team sports or hanging out with the "lads".
With time, I began to feel increasingly pressured to wed, to be fruitful and multiply. This way I would channel my sexual energies and be "cured". At 21, I went through an arranged marriage. I was engaged within less than a week of meeting my bride-to-be, and we moved to Amsterdam and then to London.
Naturally, all those promises were in vain – and at the expense of an innocent girl. Over the years, my secret began riving at me from my entrails. I was sick of deceiving my wife and myself. I told her the truth. Shortly thereafter she left me, taking our three daughters to Argentina. The pain I put all of them through is an albatross I will carry on my shoulders for ever.
After my ordeal, I burst out of the closet and considered renouncing my faith. I nonetheless came to realise I needed spirituality. Just as I couldn't repress my sexuality, I couldn't repress my spiritual self either. I needed an alternate source of meaning.
With trepidation I approached the headquarters of Liberal Judaism in London, a movement founded on the principles of egalitarianism and inclusivity, which conducts same-sex commitment ceremonies. The movement extended to me its unconditional support.Having been ordained as a rabbi, I joined Northwood and Pinner Liberal Synagogue and it felt like coming home. I now have a partner and have reached a level of happiness I never dreamed possible.
There are many other movements across the faith spectrum which fully embrace their LGBT members. Transitioning from a conservative religion to an inclusive one is not easy. Yet the bliss felt by being at peace with oneself and being welcomed into an accepting community outweighs the cost. If you take the leap, there will be many to catch you. Trust me, I was there.
Hillel Athias-Robles is assistant rabbi of the Northwood & Pinner Liberal Synagogue
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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The report is mostly talking about the benefits and costs of SOCE. I agree that SOCE is dangerous, risky and unlikely to be successful. But to take Macky's earlier example imagine therapy to try and change someone's preference for chocolate over vanilla.
I personally believe, from my experience and reading, that sexual preference is just like flavour preference. Which means it may be able to be changed. Somehow. But I think it's dangerous and unnecessary to do so. Ancient Civilisations valued homo-erotic and hetero-erotic encounters much as we value both vanilla and chocolate. Few people eat exclusively chocolate or exclusively vanilla- though a few may- most can appreciate the merits of both even if they have a preference.
I think there's a variety of different reasons for preferencing chocolate over vanilla, some biological, some conditioned. But none justify trying to change someone's preference. It MAY be possible in some cases, but why do it? And what harm can result from trying to force it?
So "can it be changed" well, I didn't read the report as saying that. I read it as saying "you shouldn't try and change it". I do believe sexuality is fluid, I believe in a Kinsey (or similar) scale, which means I accept that sexuality isn't a binary or trinary system. But changing it? Forcing change? I don't know that that is possible, maybe sexuality does change itself, but can't be forced to change? That seems more likely to me.
It's a complex topic. I wish people would just accept homosexuality as a potential norm like vanilla preference. That way we could stop caring about whether or not it was "chosen". It could just be a matter of academic curiosity instead.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Then does "gay" even have any meaning?
It seems that it's just a self-identity thing. A convenient label. If sex with guys does not a gay make. Does attraction or appreciation of the male form? I don't think so. What makes a gay man (or woman) gay seems to be just the self-descriptor "gay".
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Saben wrote:
> Then does "gay" even have any meaning?
>
> It seems that it's just a self-identity thing. A convenient label.
Yup, that's pretty much what I see it as. It does have meaning, but the meaning depends a bit on who one is talking to. And an unqualified "gay" isn't (for me) all that convenient a label, because it's too broad ... my preferred self-identity is "out gay man".
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Saben wrote:
> If sex with guys does not a gay make. Does attraction or appreciation of the male form? I don't think so. What makes a gay man (or woman) gay seems to be just the self-descriptor "gay".
And attraction to or appreciation of the female form, or having sex with a woman, does that make one bisexual or heterosexual?
No, it does not.
Knowing which sex you want to be with and share your body with, that is what defines your sexual orientation. To heck with labels. And this idea of "Self descriptor" is dangerously close to imagining that you have a choice in the matter.
You may choose whom you have sex with, but you don't get to choose your orientation.
And smug bastards in white coats don't get to change it, either.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Do you believe that sexuality is fluid at all? Or entirely fixed?
How do you feel about the Kinsey Scale or Klein Sexual Orientation Grid as descriptors of sexual orientation?
I think that denying all elements of choice in sexual runs too far towards it being "fate". "Choice" itself implies direct conscious volition, though, so I'm not too happy with that term either.
As I said in my earlier post I prefer, personally, to look at sexuality in terms of preference. But maybe my opinion isn't borne out by the science.
I just wish sexual preference and sexual behaviour could be expressed without judgement. The science debate is too much of a political debate. And I think the polarisation of sexuality into two extremes is socially and psychologically motivated. By having western morals push sexuality into an "us and them" situation it created polarity that didn't exist in ancient cultures. Gender was a more salient preference than something like hair colour, but it was still just a feature preference. And attraction goes beyond preferences.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Saben wrote:
> How do you feel about the Kinsey Scale or Klein Sexual Orientation Grid as descriptors of sexual orientation?
Personally, I find the Klein grid most useful tool when thinking about sexuality (usually when other people ask me about theirs: I'm entirely relaxed about my own!). I particularly like the way that Klein recognises that what we *do* is not necessarily what we *want*, and that what we have done is not necessarily what we are doing or will do.
As usual, here's a link to an on-line version: http://www.youthnetsouthampton.org.uk/breakout/kleingrid.php
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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i have a hard time explaining this to my friends.
i know i'm gay because i want to be with a guy. i have developed strong bonds with guys that i know this part of me will never change.
sex on the other hand is more fluid for me, whether with a girl or boy. My feelings stay with the guys. Girls, i just don't see the same way.
You don't love someone because they are beautiful, they are beautiful because you love them.
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I scored 3.52 (/6). I was surprised at how low that was.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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To my surprise, Nigel (& NW) I scored 4.33. But I could easily answer some of the questions another way, depending on the mood of the moment.
But I can't deny the truth of what its words said "Mainly homosexual but more than incidentally heterosexual".
Love,
Anthony
PS I wore dayglo orange tights to go shopping and to the croquet club today!
[Updated on: Tue, 18 August 2009 21:33] |
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Nice pic!
Well, on an average score I come in at 4.76 - more than incidentally heterosexual, as well.
This reflects that fact that while my (adult) sexual behaviour, fantasies, attractions etc have been exclusively gay, my social life is not ghettoised onto the gay scene, but seems to reflect the broad range of society: about a third of my friends and acquaintances have at least some gay experiences, but only a minority of them self-identify as gay. It does also reflect that I was for a couple of years desperately in love with a girl, and if she hadn't miscarried I would have been married at 19 - though, to be honest, I usually had to think of other guys in order to make love to her successfully.
To me, the Klein scale is more helpful in thinking about what "gay" means to me, and what it means to each individual gay person, than about assigning an average score. In particular, I think there's a weakness in that self-identifying as "gay" in private is, I think, a very different experience from self-identifying as an "out gay man", and the aspects of Klein that deal with social identity and lifestyle don't recognise that.
But as a starting point for discussion, I do find Klein a lot better than Kinsey, or other single-variable descriptions.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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3.24 when I considered "Ideal" to be what I wished for. 4.86 when I read that "Ideal" should be "my prediction for the future". I think that this test does not consider "married to a woman" guys. So I don't think its valid for some of us.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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They're not tights, Anthony. You bought a can of spray-paint.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Yup. Macky: I think this is pretty much the flipside of the coin. There's an area about social identity, which is not to do with one's self-identity, nor who one socialises with.
"Being married(to the opposite sex)", "having kids", "being civil partnered", "being fully out" - all are matters of everyday conversation and set up a whole bunch of expectations in other people (not all of which are always justified). I do think that's an important part of discussions about sexual orientation. At the same time, I'm not sure there's an easy or meaningful way to cover it in any simple scale.
But - for me - that's kinda the point in seeing things in a multi-factorial way like Klein, rather than the simple score of the Kinsey scale: about "What do I mean by gay/bi? What do other people mean by gay/bi?", "Which factors are actually important to me in determining how I see myself, relate to other people, etc?" In short, I don't see it as answering "how gay am I?", but as raising all sorts of questions about what contributes to how I see myself.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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I scored 4.24 (for what it's worth).
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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4.95, predominantly homosexual, incidentally heterosexual in the past 
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Oddly, that is easy to understand, probably.
I think it may mean that, for you, sex is not the absolute goal of a relationship. Instead it is an enjoyable activity, performed with either sex, but with an overall leaning to male/male bonding and companionship.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Quite so, M, I have lots of friends of both sexes and I know I'm predominantly gay because of the way I think about them and the way I notice people who look good.
Just occasionally I notice a really attractive woman but nearly always it's a man that captures my attention and that I wonder about doing things with. And it's over 47 years since I have!
And just occasionally a woman comes on to me and I have to explain gently that I'm not available because I've been married and faithful for 46 years or (and it is interesting that this is more effective usually), if I trust her, I tell her that I'm really gay.
So I suggest the subject really is "Shagging women cannot make you straight".
Love,
Anthony
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