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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Degrees of "out"
Degrees of "out"  [message #58597] Sun, 06 September 2009 22:35 Go to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



I was reading M's recent post about telling people you're gay and I was thinking about my own experiences.

If anyone asks I'm "out". That is my friends know I'm gay. my family (including most of my extended family) know I'm gay. My boyfriend's family know. His friends know. We're registered as being in a relationship for my student payment. I'm not afraid to tell new people I meet that I'm gay or have a boyfriend. Everyone I've met through Uni knows.

But sometimes I still feel like I've got something to hide. I get paranoid about holding Ryan's hand in public, when ordering food I feel like we should pay separately. I don't mind telling friendly acquaintances about my sexuality, but I feel weird around strangers or people I'll only see once. It feels like the details of my relationship and sexuality are too intimate and I don't want to reveal it to everyone I deal with on a day-to-day basis. I know I won't be refused service in a store if people find out I'm gay. I know that 99% of the time it'd be safe to hold hands during daylight hours in Melbourne. But I feel that seeming like a couple with Ryan is automatically implying all kinds of things about me as a person that I don't want a stranger that I've only met in passing to think. I guess I don't want to be defined as "gay" but I'm scared of homophobia, even though I haven't really had any major traumatic homophobic experiences.


Then with friendly acquaintances I also feel like I can't properly "come out" and be myself. Take for example friends I've met through politics. They are people of a classical liberal or libertarian persuasion. They are progressive on issues like gay marriage, or even where they are personally against gay marriage they believe that the government shouldn't regulate morality. They are people I've felt entirely comfortable and safe coming out to, people I've told I'm gay within 10 minutes of conversation. Yet I find it hard to go any further. To talk about Ryan in any depth. Or when it comes to peers on campus- to talk about my sex life like they do theirs. They can be open about their heterosexual behaviour and maybe I can about my homosexual behaviour, but I don't feel like I can. I don't mind telling people clinically "I'm gay" or "I have a boyfriend". That's a political statement, really. But beyond that, on the personal or sexual level, when I actually start talking about my boyfriend, my sex life, my sexuality the fact that I'm gay scares me from saying much.

I wonder if straight people would feel uncomfortable if I was as open with them as they are with me... or maybe I'm just paranoid? Or maybe my fear is less about sexuality and comes more from the fact that Ryan was underage when we first started dating- I told very few people that I was in a relationship when I first met him, so I could just have trained habits of shame.

Gay shame. The opposite of pride, I guess. I seems to sum up my experiences. I'm out but I still feel shame to the point where I'm less open than I think I would be were I straight. I'm generally the type of person that doesn't mind intimacy in public. So why am I scared to show gay intimacy around people I know won't or can't bash my head in? I don't normally care much about the opinions of others and strangers (I am happy to be socially inappropriate should the mood take me), but I care about their opinions on this.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Degrees of "out"  [message #58598 is a reply to message #58597] Mon, 07 September 2009 01:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Macky is currently offline  Macky

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973



I don't know Saben. I wouldn't go so far as to say there is any "gay shame" involved. Some straights might like to talk in more detail about their sexual relationships than you would feel comfortable doing. But there are likely a lot of straights who are just like you in preferring to keep those special moments special and just between the two. Personally, having personal secrets with one's partner seems like a very romantic thing, and talking to others about it seems crude. As for telling folks you are gay. I guess one tells when there is some desire or need to tell. Everyone doesn't have to know. I did enjoy reading about how easily you do express your affection in public. It was really hard to do that in my day. When I had a guy partner before I married, we used to hold hands in public, but not very openly. It isn't really too difficult at a candlelight dinner, or in a movie theater. I think if he's have desired more of a public display I would have gone along, but he didn't have that need. And he preferred to keep his off-work social engagements within the gay community, so it really wasn't a issue there.



Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
Re: Degrees of "out"  [message #58600 is a reply to message #58597] Mon, 07 September 2009 08:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



Saben wrote:
> Gay shame. The opposite of pride, I guess. I seems to sum up my experiences. I'm out but I still feel shame to the point where I'm less open than I think I would be were I straight. I'm generally the type of person that doesn't mind intimacy in public. So why am I scared to show gay intimacy around people I know won't or can't bash my head in? I don't normally care much about the opinions of others and strangers (I am happy to be socially inappropriate should the mood take me), but I care about their opinions on this.

I can relate to this. I understand where you are coming from completely. It's a matter of acceptance, and the feeling of comfort that acceptance brings with it.

You know, understand and trust the known reactions of your friends and family. But a stranger is a loose cannon. A stranger presents a danger to you in your mind because you cannot know their reaction to you and your actions, and you still need to be approved of.

A possible solution is for you and Ryan, now it's coming up towards summer in your part of the world, to check out a Gay Pride event and to walk openly in the parade. As you walk this feeling turns from scary to exciting, to satisfying, to normal. Or it did for me, back in Brighton. I hope it did for Deeej in Reading.

It's not the universal aspirin, but it is a powerful medicine all the same.

[Updated on: Mon, 07 September 2009 08:07]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Degrees of "out"  [message #58601 is a reply to message #58597] Mon, 07 September 2009 08:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Yes, Saben, I'm completely with you. I feel the same way, as far as our situations are the same - and of course they aren't because I've never lived with a gay partner and am married to a woman and faithful - but I think I feel just the same way you do.

And I think it would be better if I overcame the 'shyness' and it would be better for the world if people didn't feel that shyness. And I'm sure that wearing brightly coloured tights instead of trousers leads a lot of passers-by to assume I'm gay - and I'm OK with that (because I am). And I really like the friendly grins I sometimes get and am amused by the people who pointedly won't look at me and walk by with pursed lips.

And I think it is a small thing but empowering and it can be stressful (eg going into a strange pub) but even that is, in a way a relief.

So, all I would say is 'Hold hands with Ryan more often, please and if I see you you will get a beaming smile from me'.

Love,
Anthony
Re: Degrees of "out"  [message #58605 is a reply to message #58600] Mon, 07 September 2009 16:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



I've been to a pride march with Ryan before and I was happier to be myself at the march. I have fewer problems being out and proud at such an event. But that's in part because I feel like it's okay to be obvious at such an event. But out here in the suburbs, I don't know. Maybe it's just that I'm starting to be more considerate as I grow older and I don't want to make other people uncomfortable. But I don't think it is that, because it's about me- I get rattled about it (scared is too strong a word)- it's not about worrying that they will feel disturbed.

If I lived in the well known gay areas and was active in the gay community I think I'd probably be more publicly open too. I think it's just living in suburbia that makes it harder for me. But as has been hinted at I think that makes it all the more important- I have a bit of an obligation to hold hands and kiss publicly, really! By being publicly affectionate with Ryan we can expose people out here in suburbia to our sexuality and help normalise it. We can be a light to those that aren't out to their friends and families- to the gay youth, to the gay men still married to women- to others that are struggling. To let them know they aren't alone. I shouldn't be scared, it's irrational, and more to the point if I let go of my fear I can help others.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Degrees of "out"  [message #58606 is a reply to message #58598] Mon, 07 September 2009 16:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



I know different people have different standards regarding openness. Some people might openly discuss their sex lives with friends and even friendly acquaintances and get on with their significant other in public, while others prefer to be more discrete and private. I tend to be a more open person- I'll happily make lewd jokes, discuss masturbation and I'm not put off my couples getting a little TOO cosy around me. But when it comes to my homosexual attractions and my sex life I'm a lot more reticent.

I'm not disturbed that I (or others) are shy about their sex lives amongst friends, it's more than I'm NOT shy about that kind of thing normally, but when it involves gay "stuff" I am shy. It's a double standard. That why I use the term "gay shame". Because I wouldn't be ashamed to talk about straight sex, but because I'm gay I am ashamed, shy and afraid.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Degrees of "out"  [message #58607 is a reply to message #58605] Mon, 07 September 2009 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



As long as you behave with quiet wisdom and recognise that it is only appropriate to show affection in public in the same manner and location and circumstances as a str8 couple.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Degrees of "out"  [message #58609 is a reply to message #58605] Mon, 07 September 2009 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Macky is currently offline  Macky

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973



"I have a bit of an obligation to hold hands and kiss publicly, really!"

It's not really an obligation, it's more like a gift from you to the world you live in. I think that you are thinking of it as a charitable thing that you should do for others. That's very sweet. But you also have an obligation to yourself, to guard your safety and to maintain your privacy as much as you need to....for whatever reasons. And sometimes if you give more than you are really ready to give, you don't get that wonderful feeling that giving accords to generous souls. If you push yourself towards charitable actions too much, sometimes you don't feel that people are appreciating your efforts. I think that you should do as much as is easy and fun for you, and feel confident about your growing into someone who can give more. Doing good should be fun.



Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
Re: Degrees of "out"  [message #58626 is a reply to message #58601] Thu, 10 September 2009 14:13 Go to previous message
ray2x is currently offline  ray2x

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429



I guess I've practice the "degrees of out" most of my life without really knowing it. I did tell some people of my being gay while in college and that was good. Me and my boyfriend were kissing in public and we shocked a few people which was around 1977. After that, I didn't want to shock people if I could help it. I did not tell but about 2 relatives of me being gay. All in all, there are my degrees.
I have also noticed throughout my career and personal life that "being out" works subconsciously. It's not the gaydar thing but a real cognitive process by which a gay man or person feels comfortable with a person who is gay or bi or lesbian. As example, I have worked with many gay and lesbian folks in education. They don't know I am gay but they seem to be comfortable about me, as if at least, they could be more truthful about themselves (coming out to me?) and that's fine. It's rather difficult to explain briefly, but this has happened many more times not by chance (statistically speaking) for me to notice. Like, I'm wearing a button or a teeshirt with the message "I know. Trust me".



Raymundo
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