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"Sitting on the floor, wearing traditional Islamic clothes and holding an old notebook, Abu Hamizi, 22, spends at least six hours a day searching internet chatrooms linked to gay websites. He is not looking for new friends, but for victims.
"It is the easiest way to find those people who are destroying Islam and who want to dirty the reputation we took centuries to build up," he said. When he finds them, Hamizi arranges for them to be attacked and sometimes killed.
Hamizi, a computer science graduate, is at the cutting edge of a new wave of violence against gay men in Iraq. Made up of hardline extremists, Hamizi's group and others like it are believed to be responsible for the deaths of more than 130 gay Iraqi men since the beginning of the year alone."
read the rest here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/13/iraq-gays-murdered-militias
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Fuck I hate religion.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Saben wrote:
Fuck I hate religion.
I understand and sympathise. But after reflection, maybe you will distinguish between the philosophies and the philosophers.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Yep.
Maybe religion would be all right if no-one believed in it.
Love,
Anthony
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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Certainly no religion here. More of a hate group. Islam, Christianity, Judiasm, etc., all becoming glorified hate groups!
Raymundo
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I think that we always need to be cautious about generalizations, Ramundo. I would venture to say that all religions have the same mix of good and evil as society in general. I have been hurt by my religion and I have been inspired by it as well.
The proselytizing religions do have a tendency to ride roughshod over innocent people though. I was awakened the other day by old lady Jehovah Witnesses knocking on doors and passing out tracts. I was probably too nice to them, but I figured if it were the young Mormon guys, I would have been nice(they're easy to look at), so I figured I should treat all the proselytizers civilly.
I would be just as averse to condemning a given religion across the board, as I would be to condemning any other subculture. I figure if the proselytized are nice while the proselytizer is being bombastic, that maybe the proselytized can show the proselytizer how he should act towards his fellow man. Of course if they are out to kill you like the sick bastard of this thread, you can't be nice. I have a lot of respect for the religions that let non members alone though. They seem more grown-up somehow. If I were born into Judaism, I wouldn't be as conflicted on this as my Catholicism has made me, I think.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I find it absolutely disgusting. But equally gay men living there know how bad the climate is there. In Saudi Arabia they get executed by the state. There is not a lot of difference except the location.
I can and do express my disgust. But we have to recognise that we are as irrelevant to the fate of gay men in those places as were the Jews to the fate of other Jews in the Holocaust Our opinions in this are as much use as our navels. We each have one, and that is it.
We need to face forwards and concentrate on our world and on improving that beyond recognition.
I'm desperately sorry for the people trapped by fundamentalist sects, but I cannot help them. Only they can help themselves by refusing the rule of the tyrants. If they simply swap one oppressive régime for another, what then?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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>Only they can help themselves by refusing the rule of the tyrants. If they simply swap one oppressive régime for another, what then?
I have to agree. However, when you are indoctrinated from early childhood to accept a belief, as is the whole population of the Islamic states, you can expect very little dissension. It's sort of like the children in Fred Phelp's church - what is the likelihood of them growing up to become caring, nurturing adults? They will accept certain classes of human beings as being sub-human and worthy of extermination.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Rather than say religion has the same mix of good and evil as broader society I'd say religion has a more extreme mix of good and evil. Generally speaking you see the best AND worst of people in religion.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I think you might be right. THen I find myself wondering what it is about religion that pushes the extremes. Maybe it's akin to mob mentality or something.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I have learnt from a source in the Middle East more of what takes place when these sick perverts find a gay man. Put simply he is abused badly and his body is mutilated until he dies. You don't want to know the details, save that they involve penis, testicles and anus.
So tell me, please, how the perpetrators are not, themselves indulging in some awful sadistic perversion? They appear to have a huge and probably erotic interest in other men's bodies.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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But, Raymundo, that is what most religions are, most of the time.
Love,
Anthony
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Surely not, Macky; surely you wouldn't seriously maintain that those religions that treat women as a lower class of animal have as much good mixed in as those that don't. But all religions (except, perhaps, the quakers?) condemn many kinds of behaviour which on any rational consideration do no harm and promote behaviour (such as praying) which doesn't work and arguably does more harm than good. (At least the time could be spent on something constructive!)
And the mormons and the old women could do something better with their time.
Consider whether it is sensible to demand celibacy of priests. What good does it do? What harm may follow from it? Are those religions which don't require such extreme sexual abnegation worse served by their priests than the Roman Catholics? It seems quite plain to me that the requirement does much more harm than good.
Love,
Anthony
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Well, Saben, I'd agree about the worst but am far from happy to agree to the best. The people I know of who behave well are nearly all irreligious. The holiest people seem to me to sponge on society for their living and spread untruth and ignorance among the believers.
I really can't see what good a priest does. I think 'faith' schools mix teaching untruth with education and make it much harder for their pupils to see the truth about the world.
What makes you think that in religion you see the best of people. Believers that do good aren't even doing it for altruistic reasons, are they?
Love,
Anthony
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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The majority of charities seem to have been founded by religious groups. Especially those dedicated to relieving poverty.
Health-based charities aren't as often religious. But I think the motivation behind those charities often isn't as altruistic and is more often based on personal experience.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Anthony,
Mistreatment of women is a long standing problem in most societies. I believe the problem is worse in the religious adherenta in these societies.
I feel that my religion has gone futher than condemning harmless behaviors and condemns some laudible ones.
I have never seen much difference between prayer and thoughtful introspection.
And some people in religious organizations do do a lot of good, that they would never have been able to accomplish on their own.
For some reason, there are such high expectations of religion. All religions are human institutions and are just as liable to do good or bad as any other human institution. We didn't overthrow and abolish governments that considered homosexuality a crime, but we worked to improve them. To abolish govrenment and have anarchy doesn't solve anything. Religion has survived in societal evolution for a resaon. If there were no reason, there would not be religion. It's been a human need since earliest recorded time. Just because you do not understand the need is no resaon to recommend abolishing all religion.
I believe that in the end the religion reflects the beliefs and attitudes of its adherents. You seem to consider religion as a separate entity, run by evil cliques, out to derail people's lives.
If you, as supreme leader of the world, abolished all religion, how much hurt would that action cause? Maybe you should do a bit of thoughtful introspection on it. Like, 'has anyone ever felt hurt at my saying these things?'. Condemn malefactors where ever you see them. Don't waste your time condemning faceless institutions.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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Well taken. I just get quite upset on how maligned religion can become by the acts of a general few. What also gets me is how the leaders of the big religions tend to lean conservative. Is that to pander to those "few" or is religion generally conservative? I can't imagine such "liberal" messages can be fronted for conservative religions.
Raymundo
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It's probably in order to maintain their position. Otherwise it might be a tad like turkeys voting for Christmas (or Thanksgiving over the pond).
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Dear Macky,
I don't think your reply hits the nail on the head. It's somehow oblique.
You say "Mistreatment of women is a long standing problem in most societies." but the point is that many religions justify it. If people are told that god says women are inferior how can that view be changed? In my view since god's mind can't be changed we have to give up belief in god.
You wrote "I feel that my religion has gone futher than condemning harmless behaviors and condemns some laudible ones." And it supported much that is cruel and wrong.
You wrote "I have never seen much difference between prayer and thoughtful introspection." and surely this shows that you haven't taken prayer seriously. Prayer in the religious sense is asking god to do something for you. It is a direct appeal to the supernatural.
You wrote "All religions are human institutions and are just as liable to do good or bad as any other human institution. We didn't overthrow and abolish governments that considered homosexuality a crime, but we worked to improve them. To abolish govrenment and have anarchy doesn't solve anything." There is no parallel between abolishing government and abolishing religion. As you say without governemtn there would be anarchy. Without religion on the other hand there is no problem.
You wrote "Religion has survived in societal evolution for a resaon. If there were no reason, there would not be religion. It's been a human need since earliest recorded time. Just because you do not understand the need is no resaon to recommend abolishing all religion." I don't fail to understand the need. I know people are weak and greedy and selfish and violent and I don't see any need to let people be like that. Why should I agree that would be a reason for 'keeping' religion?
You wrote "I believe that in the end the religion reflects the beliefs and attitudes of its adherents. You seem to consider religion as a separate entity, run by evil cliques, out to derail people's lives." No, you misunderstand me. I don't think religion can be abolished by anyone's dictat. The only way to get rid of it is to persuade people not to believe as I try to do. In my opinion most believers try to be 'good' but their view of 'good' is largely set by what their religion tells them so, for example, Roman Catholics believe women are inferior creatures who cannot be priests. Most believers are far too unsophisticated to select for themselves what parts of a religion do little harm and reject the rest.
You wrote "If you, as supreme leader of the world, abolished all religion, how much hurt would that action cause?" But, Macky, I'm not supreme leader of the world with dictatorial powers. The nearest human being to that is the pope who is infallible and whose word is law for Roman Catholics (or should be according to the teaching of their priests). And I believe that if fewer people believed in god that would make the world a better place.
You wrote "Maybe you should do a bit of thoughtful introspection on it. Like, 'has anyone ever felt hurt at my saying these things?'. Condemn malefactors where ever you see them. Don't waste your time condemning faceless institutions." and I suggest that this is thoughtful and introspective. And I don't so much condemn institutions as the people who support them and sustain the false and injurious beliefs that they promote.
The long and the short of it is that it is your belief that I'm objecting to and the effect it has. Have you thought about the effect that your belief has?
Love,
Anthony
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Yes, Raymundo, all religions are deeply conservative. Whether it's the pope or an ayatollah who tells the world what god thinks or wants us to do, there is an explicit or implicit claim to divine authority and no-one has yet found a way to put a sell-by date on an infallible edict. They all last for ever. And they last particularly well when they are written down as in the koran or bible or whatever.
So the problem is how can god change his mind? How can a pope's wrongheaded infallible edict be made fallible? How are muslims or catholics ever to be brought to accept female priests, for example?
Love,
Anthony
[Updated on: Thu, 17 September 2009 11:20] |
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"If people are told that god says women are inferior how can that view be changed? In my view since god's mind can't be changed we have to give up belief in god."
But there is a mechanism for change. The hierarchy doesn't run the church. The people do. The hierarchy is a brake on the people. It keeps them from running off with fads and getting carried away. The hierarchy slows down and vets new developments in the people, and eventually incorporates their enlightened sense of what is good. It's similar to the checks and balances that most good governing systems have. Of course the people at large make long running mistakes that get incorporated. One of those mistakes, as I see it, was outlawing same sex couples. In ancient times, the church had a service for joining these couples. Saints Sergius and Bacchus were venerated as a couple and the lives of the saints lauds their affection for each other. Celibacy did not exist in th early church. It's a Buddhist ideal that was incorporated into church (another error) belief at a later date. Of course women have a right to be priests, and the Roman Church will cave on this in the future, just like the Lutheran, Episcopal, and even Jewish faiths have done.
"Prayer in the religious sense is asking god to do something for you. It is a direct appeal to the supernatural."
Anthony, you have a very childish view of prayer. An individual's faith grows and changes. A more mature prayer of prayers would say. "God, help Henry, he's a wreck. Use me as your tool to help Henry." That's the jump off point for the prayer to to begin to do some introspection as to how he can help Henry.
"There is no parallel between abolishing government and abolishing religion."
I disagree. Religion and government have always had an invaluable "checks and balances" relationship. Governments have risen to offset religious abuses and Religions have risen to offset Governmental abuses. I think that the test of time has validated this symbiosis.
"I know people are weak and greedy and selfish and violent and I don't see any need to let people be like that. Why should I agree that would be a reason for 'keeping' religion?"
Your best question yet. Atheist friends have hit me with this one before, and I have had to submit to the propriety of this view. I really think that religion is not for everyone. Some people have such a keen insight into right and wrong and such well thought out views of rectitude that religion is superfluous. That's part of the reason that I have a problem with religions that proselytize.
"I don't think religion can be abolished by anyone's dictat. The only way to get rid of it is to persuade people not to believe as I try to do."
This helps me understand you better. You perform a great service to religions in pointing out their shortcomings. Ultimately, I think criticism helps religions correct their errors. The courage to stand up and state your views is a laudable thing. Where you rub me the wrong way is the point at which your criticisms seem to turn into something like proselytizing for the religion of atheism, or even abolishing peoples' right to enjoy worship as they please.
"The nearest human being to that is the pope who is infallible and whose word is law for Roman Catholics (or should be according to the teaching of their priests). And I believe that if fewer people believed in god that would make the world a better place."
You have good reasons for your belief that the world would be a better place without religion. Others have very good reasons for their belief that the world is a better place with religion. In the end we're just talking about what we have faith in. I think all religions today are an amalgam of this sort of exchange of views. I'm sure that Christianity has borrowed heavily from many "pagan" beliefs.
Papal infallibility is an embarrassment to the church. They have written reams trying to explain it and show it's very limited use, but they should admit that the pope who established papal infallibility was himself, fucked-up.
"And I don't so much condemn institutions as the people who support them and sustain the false and injurious beliefs that they promote."
By virtue of being an adherent of a faith, does a person support and sustain a church's injurious beliefs, or does he act as a catalyst towards modification of the church's belief system? You really shouldn't condemn all adherents to a faith, just the malefactors.
"The long and the short of it is that it is your belief that I'm objecting to and the effect it has. Have you thought about the effect that your belief has?"
Anthony, I respect your intelligence and I am certain of your good intentions, but the long and short of it is that you have no right to object to what I believe insofar as my belief is internal to me. Hell, you don't even know what I believe...I have difficulty seeing my beliefs clearly myself. My religion is more based on desire than on conviction. Insofar as my beliefs hurting other people, I thank you for pointing out how I am doing that, because it is certainly not my aim to injure others. I like to think of myself as not having a deep personal hate of anyone. I like to think of myself as having a certain level of affection for everyone. If you convince me that I am doing harm, you help me to amend my ways and become a better person. That's probably where you are coming from, but sometimes the things you say do not come across that way...to me anyway.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I have no idea how we got into women's inferiority. All I can conclude is that knowing what happened to these poor kids in Iraq is somehow less important.
So, one had his wrists tied with cheesewire so they would be cut as he struggled, had his genitals removed painfully. I woudl imagine they were abused first, too. His throat was glued shut with a fast setting glue and his genitals stuffed into his mouth. His anus was ripped with a barbed thing and pretty much pulled from his body.
We have to hope that he died early. But we KNOW he did not, because these barbaric thugs know precisely what they are doing.
That's a walk in the park beside whether god thinks women are inferior or not, really; a mere bagatelle.
We may not be able to change that world, but we can make our feelings known effectively, and Brody might just be the man to achieve that.
So go to http://brodylevesque.blogspot.com/2009/09/brodys-notes-mothers-unspeakable-grief.html and add a comment there about that.
They were just kids.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Of course you are right Timmy,
It was in poor taste of me to bring up these other things in this thread. The cruelty of it (the story) all hurts to the point where all I want to do is not face up to it; I feel physically ill. A comment on Brody's site is really the least I should do. There is a lot each of us can do to start the ball rolling to put an end to the hatred. Living openly gay and giving of oneself freely to help others comes to mind as a general umbrella for the type of stuff we can do.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I hope you understand that mine was not a "directed remark". I had no particular point at which I made my comment nor person that I was addressing. It simply happened to be you. I see to manage that rather well 
The torture of those and other poor victims is a perversion. The problem is I feel I want revenge, and that makes me as bad. So the best we can do is to make comments in a central place where, as a journalist, Brody may be able to pull something together far larger than any of us can individually.
The fate these people are suffering is beyond belief.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Perhaps, Macky, I went over the top a bit.
I don't intend to imply that you wish to do anything but good.
I'm grateful for your 'soft answer that turneth away wrath' because I think I was too harsh - but too harsh in the phraseology, because I don't think I am yet willing to retract any of my opinions.
So, please, continue to forgive me and I'll try to forgive you!
Love,
Anthony
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Macky wrote:
Anthony, I respect your intelligence and I am certain of your good intentions, but the long and short of it is that you have no right to object to what I believe insofar as my belief is internal to me. Hell, you don't even know what I believe.
No, but Anthony does know what he thinks you believe, and that knowledge surely is not based on wild conjecture but on impressions gained over time via external facts. Now, where did those impressions come from?
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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I still marvel at how beautiful and progressive spiritual literature is. And how sad that heavy handed conservative mentalities abuse the messages of the literature.
Raymundo
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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And torture people to death.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Yes. It would be interesting to see what Anthony's impression of my belief might be. How much of his impression is based on what he knows about Catholicism and how much is based on what I have said. The only thing that I have ever said on this forum about my personal beliefs is something to the effect that I do not believe, because I lost my faith in my struggle to accept my being gay, yet I want to get my faith back somehow. As I feel it, my faith is in a stage of "comfortable turmoil" at this time, and I can not specifically state what my beliefs are.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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