I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love. Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving! We have had to make new membership moderated to combat the huge number of spammers who register
Timmy- I agree with you and him
all older gays are not bad all younger gays are not bad all younger straights are not bad all older straights are not bad. Now if you will excuse me I will stare at the young kid's pic that started that video the one with the abs and all
I had coffee with a friend on the downs the other day and while we we sipping our coffee many of the football games ended and they all walked past our table on the way back to the changing rooms. Some of them were well worth a second glance! Many of them had taken off their shirts and were sporting impressive 6-packs. But neither of us considered trying to make friends with any of them.
Like the Jack in the video we were not seeking someone to suborn; while we appreciate male beauty at least as well as most people (and are much readier to admit it than most) we don't behave inappropriately when we see it and in particular we don't flout society's norms and risk getting attacked for our pains. Maybe one day we (either of us) might consider (like my friend Mark Oaten) asking a beautiful young man for some favours.
The trouble is that the age difference would be a barrier to complete understanding between either of us and such a young man (we were about 60 and 75!!) and I, at least, would want any such relationship to be more than just physical.
The proposal here seems to be that, as it is acceptable for old men to lust after young girls, it should be no less acceptable for old gay men to lust after young men. "Jack" cites politicians lusting after Britney Spears as evidence. This seems weird to me since Britney Spears is one of the most f***ed up ppl on the planet (figurehead of no sex before marriage campain until exposed as a liar by boyfriend, married for 55 hours, posing naked for Playboy...) and politicians are hardly revered as models of integrity. The vast majority of young girls find it revolting to be ogled, or lusted after, by old men. The old men may think it's acceptable and, OK, they don't exactly get locked up for it, but there is a difference between accepted and acceptable. Why would gay men want to justify themselves by following in the footsteps of straight sleazeballs? Isn't the whole point that being aware of oppression makes you want to do away with it, not become one of the oppressors?
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
Andante,
Yes, at the beginning he mentioned the old men and young girls. But no place did he claim that this gave old men a precedent to pursue young guys. He did not advocate for that at all, in fact. What the man was saying is that not all old gay guys are out prowling for the young.
I admire good looks in young men. I'm sure all un-dead old gay men do. He admits that he does. But the main thing in the film is when he uses himself as an example of an old gay man who has principles and integrity beyond that of the old straight guys who want to bed 18 year old girls. He picked up the young hustler, (non-gay I gathered from his manner) gave him the money he needed and dropped him off at his home.
Old gay guys do that shit. I even did something very similar many years ago before I got to be an old guy. I really think that that kind of thing would happen with many older gay guys. Old gay men can be just as upstanding, charitable, and caring as anybody else
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
Mackey, you're correct that this doesn't give older men license to go and settle with a young boy. That change of mind will take many decades. We will not be around to see it happen but like much of human history, social changes do occur.
And, surely Raymundo, even straight men are sometimes affected by beautiful young men just as even gay men can appreciate the beauty of girls.
The question of who lusts after who and what one does about such lustful feelings is an endless subject for discussion.
I didn't feel that Jack was the sort of guy I ought not to trust to take my grandson out for the day. [But then I KNOW that some gay men are trustworthy and more moral than many straights!]
I'm not enormously hopeful that this social change will only take "many decades" bearing in mind that 2400 years ago Plato's Symposium tells us that the men who held power in ancient Greece thought the only kind of "love" worth having was that of a young boy - the "beardless ones". I expect they had a bit more status than today's sex workers but were just as powerless. Nobody would choose to be a sex worker unless they were in some way, trapped, perhaps by a drug habit, being in hock to a gangmaster... We do now have laws against sexual harrassment tho, which is progress of a sort. Sexual harrassment is not about sex, it is about power, just as being a sex worker is about powerlessness. Buying a sex worker a few hours off is nice for them, but not really the issue IMHO. And, going back to the video (Old & Gay = Pervert???) the word pervert is about power in this context. It is used pejoratively against gays to signal someone not part of the "normal" community. Being classed as abnormal = powerlessness. Powerlessness for one group means power for those who have defined what "normal" means. Even tho they are probly less than 10% of the world's population when you consider that being "normal" means white, male, hetero, christian, just for starters. Then there are a whole lot of other ways, often very subtle, in which you have to conform to qualify. I don't know if this is an APOS sort of topic but it makes me mad!
NB I do think any old man throwing his weight or money or power around to get young flesh is a pervert. This is different.
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
Yeah Ramundo,
True, May December relationships are possible I guess. But it seems to me that a great age difference adds a host of difficulties to a relationship. I think that there is a tendency for such relationships to be based too much on the physical and security aspects. You end up with young guys trading their beauty for the financial etc. security an older partner can provide. If it's too much physical and lacking in emotional grounding, the relationship might change with the physical characteristics. IMO it's far safer, and easier to build something with someone close to one's own age.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
Nobody would choose to be a garbage truck driver unless... either... yet plenty of people do choose to do that work, many are quite proud of the work they do and aren't doing it out of desperation.
Sex work can be liberating. Some people might go into sex work because they have few choices, but others might go into sex work because they like the pay and/ or hours. Some might like the attention. Some might like to try and prove a point by doing it. Sex entertainment is no more "perverse" than modelling or acting, in my opinion.
It's sad when views normally only held by the most fundamental of wowsers is being displayed on a gay messageboard. We're sexually deviant, too, aren't we?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Relationships are always messy and the foundations of many relationships are wrong.
But it's up to individual people to find out what works for them. None of us have the aptitude to try and work out what relationships work best for other people. Just for ourselves.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Hi Saben - I think you have misunderstood what I said. I was trying to explain why I think the word "pervert" is often used to describe gays and why it is wrong. I'm sorry if you think this is patronising but - hey - you have completely got the wrong end of the stick. Nobody would choose to be a sex worker unless their other choices were even worse, because they lose a vital part of their innermost being by exchanging their most personal self for money. The compensations, as you point out are easy hours, good pay, a lot of attention... proving a point - not sure what you mean by this. If you have any experience of sex work, please tell me how you think I've got it wrong.
Ah well, here's an interesting idea, choosing one's own clients and enjoying it sounds like the ideal job. Being in a position to do such a thing would make you the top of the tree, the Judy Garland (substitute a better icon Timmy please) of sex workers. So, only a very few ppl in thias industry could be so favoured, those who were so good looking, had such a reputation, and such an enormous client list, that they could say no when the call came from someone they didn't fancy tonight. But let's suppose... Even such a person couldn't, presumably, ring their 6 favourite celebs and suggest a certain night of the week, taking Sunday off as everyone needs a rest. They would have to pick from their existing client list which would have to be built up over time, weeding out ppl you didn't like. Or had got bored with. Or whatever. You could have some fun with this idea maybe, setting criteria, and ideal clients. For me, the problem is always money. The guy who is paying wants something he can't get for free, he wants that you will always be pleased to see him, smiley, accomodating, that he will be in control. It is hard to be your own person, however nice your clients. And, if they were that nice, wouldn't they be out with George Clooney? (substitute etc...) Realistically, or even fancifully, how would you assemble your ideal client list?
Nobody would choose to be a garbage man unless the other choices were worse.
Nobody would choose to be a doctor unless the other choices were worse.
What's your point? Everyone chooses their profession based on the available options to them. There are a lot of factors involved.
But personally I don't see semen as a vital part of someone's innermost ??? And female sex workers don't seem to lose anything except maybe a bit of sweat?
I don't have experience in sex work, but before I was in a relationship I considered it. There are people in relationships that still do it, but I made a decision that it's not for me when in a relationship.
You might be interested in listening to this interview with Fiona Patten, President of the Australian Sex Party- she has a lot of experience in the industry and campaigns heavily against wowsers that believe no-one can make a rational decision to be a sex worker. http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2009/06/24/2607196.htm
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Would it be compulsory, andante? I mean could I choose who and then they get no choice and have to pay me? I didn't think that's how it usually worked
But I have no experience with such things and on the whole I think it's best if we all stuck to the traditional standard - the best things in life are free.
But I've never spoken to anyone whom I knew to be a sex worker and wonder whether there are people who do it as an unforced choice and somehow haven't lost their self-respect or damaged their ability to form loving relationships thereby. I wouldn't expect there are many such but it doesn't seem quite impossible to me.
Yes, Macky, I feel the same and am uncomfortable with relationships where one partner is dominant. I suppose I have, myself, shied away from such relationships feeling that equality is an essential part of my loving relationships.
But that is partly a gay thing with me because I'd be more tolerant of straight unbalanced relationships, simply because it is so common for the man to be older and richer and more forceful.
And it is equality in all sorts of ways. I would want a partner who matched my abilities and education and religion and so on - and I found one!
I would expect that heterosexual relationships would be better if they were more equal too. I felt that the difference between my parents' educations made it hard for my father to take my mother's views on politics and religion seriously. I've also seen relationships that suffer when the partners have different religions - but I know one Roman Catholic/jewish couple who seem to do well.
People DO choose to work in garbage collection despite the stigma and despite the fact that a lot of people might find it "eww". Not everyone is a garbage man out of desperation. It's not a half-bad job.
Similarly I think that people do choose to work in prostitution despite the stigma and despite the fact that a lot of people might find it "wrong". Not everyone is a prostitute out of desperation. It's not a half-bad job.
It can be a physically active job where you get to entertain. You get to see people at their most exposed. A night prostitution gig might suit someone that doesn't like day work.
As I said before:
Everyone chooses their profession based on the available options to them. There are a lot of factors involved.
Garbage man is just the example I use because no-one thinks of a garbage man as exploited, despite most people thinking it's a job they wouldn't want to do.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
Mackey, I think that the old/young ideal could work but it just seems unlikely with the hysteria. And eventually, we do mingle with our peer group and somehow don't know how it happened. I guess life is life.
And Andante about the "taking decades" time measure, I feel human nature has sped up considerably and have the Industrial Revolution to thank. So, what took centuries to change, could now just take a few decades. We're meeting more people in an electronic way and that has enlarged our circle of people considerably. It's not the same face to face interaction but I wouldn't know Mackey or Timmy or others if it were not for the Internet.
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
You are probably right about the internet speeding up social change Ramundo. I've lost track of how many nieces/nephews have met their spouses via the net. Also, if you have ever seen the PBS series "connections", you'll understand well, that progress comes about as a result of the exchange of ideas. The internet makes worldwide exchange of ideas a daily affair. Additionally, ideas are not written off as incorrect on the net, and this removes prejudicial and social barriers to the exchange of ideas. Actually, this is a very exciting epoch in which to live. Old young relationships do, however, present many difficulties. I was in such a relationship for 10 years before I married. It was beautiful, but I always felt that my "older" always kept part of his life closed off from me. I wanted closer, he needed some distance. Thus I had to move on to find my perfect life partner. Imagine my surprise when that turned out to be a woman. And our lives are bsaically an open book to each other.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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