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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Caution! The following is an editorial, it may piss you off
Caution! The following is an editorial, it may piss you off  [message #59847] Tue, 01 December 2009 14:49 Go to next message
Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

Really getting into it
Location: US/Canada
Registered: September 2009
Messages: 733



I have carefully read the responses to Tim's questions/pleadings/statements in the past week or so. I have also had numerous chats with him regarding a variety of the subjects that have been discussed on the MB recently as well.

But before I get to that, I am going to answer one of the critiques that has been repeatedly implied or openly debated; Bad news that's being posted here.

First off, I have no clue as to the division of labour or economic specialisation of labour represented here. Judging from the current poll results and discussions with Tim, factoring in different levels of education as well, there seems to be a wide range. I also am not sure that another member of my profession could also be included or factored in as well. However, my point is, that all of you bring different perspectives to the table in these threads.

I, bring mine, which is 30 years of being a journalist. ( And yes, old school.) What I post is based on my perceptions as a journalist, and those stories are to highlight in specific relief problems that a LGBT person should, must, or ought to be aware of regardless of how terrible that story maybe.

Why is this important here? Tim has stated this privately to me and publicly to all of you: Where do youth and younger LGBT adults go to get answers? Where do they read things that may cause them to become more proactive about being LGBT? Then there is this factor. Today's LGBT activism is viral and immediate and yes, just as my fellow Canadian, Mr. Austin pointed out, 24/7 like the news coverage.

Folks, look. I cover the mainstream political events daily. Ah, for example, today is World Aids Day, but that will get precious little or no coverage here by the Washington Press Corps, (including yours truly) owing to the fact that the President is on his way to West Point later today to deliver a major policy statement in regards to his decision to increase by another 30K, U. S. Troops in the war in Afghanistan. Then there is the steadily worsening jobs & employment outlook which is now in the double digits. Over on the Hill, the battle for health care. Finally, and this one angers me the most, the never-ending coverage on the Virgina couple that crashed the WH State dinner last week. Which by the way, ALL of the talking heads are having a field day over. I feel sorry for the poor guys in the Secret Service who now cringe when I greet them on my way in to a briefing for fear that I am gonna ask about that topic.
Bottom line? I don't get to cover what I think is important to me as a Gay man. But then again, hey, I like to eat and pay my bills.

So, I post here and I have my tiny little blog which I am grateful is starting to get a following. That way I feel I can cover things that are critical to the LGBT community. Oh, and for the American contingent here, heads up! Today is the D. C. City council vote on Gay Marriage which will pass but has already got the Catholic Church declaring that they are gonna cut off assistance to the city due to "gross violation of their religious faith and beliefs."
That quote coming from a spokesperson at the Archdiocese that I interviewed by phone last night.

Information is personal power and enrichment folks. For anyone particularly that is young and searching or young and needing possibly a challenge or to fill a call to serve the greater good, then by God there's a damn good chance that maybe something I report on will motivate, educate, or create a need to explore further.

Okay, next: People here recently were VERY angry that I referred to the MB as a "quaint London Gentleman's Club." You know what guys? Mea Culpa and I could care less. From my perspective that what it looked like this place was turning into.

Tim wants a place of safety but also a place that is inclusive. AHA! There's the rub Barnacle Bill the Sailor who's only me from across the sea.....
The average 14 to 24 year old adolescent, (both sexes) spends an average of, (are you ready for this?) 9 and a half hours online via text message, chat, Facebook,YouTube, or other electronic social networking. I don't know about you all, but that's damn near a full work day for me.
Now I mention that fact, because if you talk to them, and I do frequently, besides the obvious chatting up their friends, they are searching, gathering information, being creative. For the GAY & LESBIAN & BI & TRANSGENDERED ones, they are looking for critical info and more importantly establishing themselves as they sort out things in their lives.

This is where this place has had success. It is also why Tim has gently, prodded and poked to shift the parameters of some of the threads recently. Now, its also a given that he's using a form of marketing strategy which should come as no shock as he's an expert in that field.

I have tried to assist in this effort by going after news stories that are entirely relevant to the greater LGBT community. Also I have tried to promote some activism along the way.

What's key here is that from MY perspective, it's incumbent upon us old farts to be inclusive, and to educate, and to share our life experiences that in turn may help a younger one.

Okay third point: You ALL do not like the term Gay Community. Hmm, well, here's a thought, oh and especially for those of you still in the closet...Do LGBT folks have FULL Equality as Human Beings? The obvious answer is of course not. Well my fellow Gay brethren, guess what, that very lack of full equality means that all of us are second class citizens in a diversified community by definition and by the fact that we are all lumped together. So, why not embrace that fact? Just as there is HUGE diversity in the animal community by species, there is huge diversity in the Gay community. Until full parity & equality are achieved, it's gonna stay that way. This is an important message folks. This is exactly what the kids need to hear.

JFR mentioned the massacre in Tel Aviv. I have shouted about the Puerto Rican kid. Yeah, nasty work that eh? The point is that it affects the entire GAY COMMUNITY as a whole.

Okay, I can do this and am willing. IF, you all, and no more nasty emails either by the way please, (I get enough of that crap daily anyway.) are entirely dissatisfied with the fact that I employ my profession in my posting here, then I can cease that and simply just post the headline and a link to my blog.

Finally, good news.........hmm I have posted articles that were good news, such as the Matthew Shepard Act's passage & being signed into law. Or, the plea from the Ali Forney Center yesterday for assistance. I will post good as well as bad. But more so, and like EJ who has an editor's eye for the pertinent.. Bring stories that raise levels of awareness.

But, as I stated, if all of you feel that its just too much saturation, then okay, I'll just link it. The problem that I have with links is that its irritating to me personally to click to go elsewhere to read the damn story. It's my own personal quirk. I cannot stand that. I like to read and then comment.

I have stepped on toes to be certain, but that was bound to happen. I am an openly proud Gay man whose unafraid to say exactly what he thinks and that can be, using Nigel's word, "provocative." But I also have a responsibility to the code of ethics of my profession and more so as a Gay Human Male. That is to be informative, supportive, and encourage others. I do not expect also to be "correct" and right. I am just as fallible as the next and even I screw up. That's what friends AND Editors are for...snicker.

So there you have it... my two penny's worth......

Brody
one concern, one issue.  [message #59848 is a reply to message #59847] Tue, 01 December 2009 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



I see one point to take issue with and one point where I am cautious. So caution first:

I am unsure of the copyright status of full articles form elsewhere that are placed here. I am aware of the doctrine of Fair Use, but I think that entire articles are not Fair Use - snippets are, but full text is not. I am aware that a Press Release retains copyright but hands the story, verbatim if wished, to a new author who may use all, part or none, and may even spoof his or her byline upon it.

So, in my caution, I worry about full articles being placed here, expedient though I agree it is, in case we get landed with an action for breach of copyright. I can't even afford to think of defending such an action, and the site would die instantly.

Acknowledging another's copyright is insufficient if the work is not licenced for re-use.

And now the issue.

I believe that one can have an inclusive place that is also safe. But one must understand what the "Safety" element is. And that is the ability to post about one's self without fearing being pilloried for it.

So, of shagging goats while strapped to a farm gate is your bag, or if you are ~gasp~ a journalist, you must be able to feel safe about saying so.

We had a time where one person was pilloried by another because he admitted honestly that he found young teens to be a turn-on. The person who was abusive eventually had to leave after reason failed to prevail. UNfortunately we almost lost the lad who is attracted to the younger teen. But he was only just not a teen himself!

What safety is not, is safety from the external world of news. We do not live in a sanitised and pleasant bubble, we live amidst unpleasantness and pleasantness alike. Unpleasantness makes better news, I'm afraid, but that's just a fact. That fact we have to get over ourselves about.

So, let's be clear what my views are, as if they matter more than yours!

I want news here, but am cautious about the form it takes in case it prejudices the site

I want levity and friendship here

I want what I might term personal safety here

I want harmony here



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Caution! The following is an editorial, it may piss you off  [message #59849 is a reply to message #59847] Tue, 01 December 2009 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

On fire!
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1558



Hi Brody

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you on this one.

You say "I have tried to assist in this effort by going after news stories that are entirely relevant to the greater LGBT community. Also I have tried to promote some activism along the way." And that's fine, and good, and laudable. But there are SO many other sources of such information - http://www.pinknews.co.uk/ for example – for those interested in such things.

I'm afraid that the "promoting activism" (to me) just comes across as preaching. There are SO many different ways of being gay, and people are in such different stages of life, and self-realisation as gay men, that I fear it risks losing something precious and irreplaceable. For me, the great strength of this place has always been the willingness of people to share their very varied life experiences, to learn from one another, and to both accept and rejoice in the enormous diversity of ways to experience "being gay" that there are. And, while links to news items are important – I've made a few myself – it has always been firmly rooted in the personal. News with no personal comment feels to me like an alien intrusion.

I suspect that most people end up here from the stories on the main site – I know that I did – and I think these are most likely to interest those (of any age) who are in the process of exploring for themselves what it means to them to be gay (or bisexual). If we were to alienate even one person in that situation by appearing to imply that you're not a proper gay if you're not an activist, I think it would be a massive disservice to the gay community, and to the individuals.

And if we're going to play the credentials game, I've been an out gay man – at home, at work, everywhere – for over 30 years, and have the rib fracture and missing teeth to prove it. I've done the vigils, the Pride Marches, the letters to MPs, the telephone help-and-advice lines … I've grieved at the loss of friends and colleagues in the 1980s to HIV/AIDS, and I've mourned the promising 15-year-old who took his own life ...I've done the "meet someone in a gay coffee bar for their first time" and sat and watched as they passed and re-passed the window before finally making up their mind …

I see your post was titled "Editorial" rather than "Opinion piece". That would normally imply that it represented the view of the organisation – in this case, timmy's view. If it represents the direction that timmy would like to move this forum, that's entirely his privilege, and would perhaps reflect his own personal stage of coming out. But I think it would be to lose something that has been of considerable value to a number of people over the years: somewhere where people felt able to explore things without being made to feel unusual, or foolish, or "not a proper gay" – a place that recognised and valued diversity: indeed, a "Place of Safety".

Others will no doubt have their own views, and I look forward to reading them.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Caution! The following is an editorial, it may piss you off  [message #59850 is a reply to message #59847] Tue, 01 December 2009 16:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JimB is currently offline  JimB

Likes it here

Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349



Brody Levesque wrote:
> IF, you all, and no more nasty emails either by the way please, (I get enough of that crap daily anyway.) are entirely dissatisfied with the fact that I employ my profession in my posting here, then I can cease that and simply just post the headline and a link to my blog.

Brody, I have no problem with the news and journalistic articles that you post here. For the most part they are interesting and reflect the reason this forum exists.

JimB
move towards a middle view  [message #59856 is a reply to message #59849] Tue, 01 December 2009 17:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



It seems to me that there is a middle ground that can be achieved here. Neither position is diametrically opposed, though it might appear so at first.

The only person who can express my opinion is, of course, me. And I think I have.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Caution! The following is an editorial, it may piss you off  [message #59863 is a reply to message #59847] Tue, 01 December 2009 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



The news can be important. But the personal is more so. Here at least.

I'd rather hear about your experiences, Brody. More than the experiences of someone you've interviewed in a cold stuffy manner.

What's made you hurt? How have you gotten over that? What about being gay still makes you hurt?

I feel that's what makes this "A Place of Safety". Particular news stories are important from time to time. Especially when relevant to someone here and the issues they face. But I don't want this to read like a GLBT version of news.com.au. Mass postings of news articles have been turning me off. There has been more news than discussion.

It's just my opinion. But I don't like that. It's a big change from what this place has been. But then again looking at the results of the age surveys the way web culture has changed has already made a difference here. There aren't as many teens around looking for help. It does feel a bit like a "quaint London Gentleman's Club". But it shouldn't feel like a copy of the Southern Star (http://www.sstar.net.au/).

A Place of Safety was always different. It is "gay community" without forcing "gay community" down your throat. I always felt like people could come and accept their own sexuality here at their own pace and in their own way. I fight a common battle with others against heteronormative society. But I'm my own person with my own life and I don't want to be defined by my sexuality, either.

The Southern Star website is not for me. Going to sleep next to my boyfriend, or holding his hand and cuddling as we geek out on the latest episode of Heroes is.

A Place of Safety understood the difference. The news that came was stuff that really felt important to us and it was tempered with personal opinion. Recently I've felt bombarded with a bunch of stuff I don't care about. Stuff about a community I'm not part of. My community is here, online. Whether at A Place of Safety or in my most recent online game.

Anyway. They are just my thoughts. I've been here for about 7 or 8 years. On and off. Since I was 16. The stories lured me. The ability to tell my story and listen others' kept me. We've always been able to discuss what makes us us. It feels like there's not many new people joining recently. Maybe faster internet connections have made stories obsolete as videos take the stage as jack off material so people don't find sites like nifty. And as a result they don't find sites like this. I found this place through nifty. I liked the well written stories. And then I liked the community.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Caution! The following is an editorial, it may piss you off  [message #59864 is a reply to message #59863] Tue, 01 December 2009 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

On fire!
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1558



Saben wrote:

>
> A Place of Safety was always different. It is "gay community" without forcing "gay community" down your throat. I always felt like people could come and accept their own sexuality here at their own pace and in their own way. I fight a common battle with others against heteronormative society. But I'm my own person with my own life and I don't want to be defined by my sexuality, either.
>
Very eloquently put, Saben - far better than my own stumbling efforts!



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
balance again  [message #59865 is a reply to message #59863] Tue, 01 December 2009 19:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



There is a good balance to be struck between important news, such as DC's signing of the stage of the marriage law, or kids being killed because they are gay, and our own experiences.

It's up to us as posters to tailor what we post to make it not only of public interest, but useful too.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scales!  [message #59870 is a reply to message #59865] Tue, 01 December 2009 19:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

On fire!
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1558



I'm with Saben on this - just re-posting the content of a news article is something I don't find at all helpful. Some personal experience, some human contact, some note of why it is important, or what can be done ...

I rather prefer comments plus a link to the original article because:
  • it's easy to open in a new tab with a single mouse-click, and close with one more
  • the layout of the article is preserved, which usually makes it much easier to read
  • it's on the original site, so easy to explore that site and get a feeling for the attitudes and biases of that site (and yes - I do like to do a little bit of research like that on some articles: it's important not to just believe everything we read on the net).
  • frankly, routinely not giving any comment can seem lazy, and so devalue the news

    As I said, I'm by no means against news: I've posted a fair number of news links myself. But I think it has to be news that is relevant to the poster, and so to us here (posters and lurkers) - as individuals, not as some hypothetical "gay community".



    "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
  • Re: balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scales!  [message #59871 is a reply to message #59870] Tue, 01 December 2009 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

    Really getting into it
    Location: US/Canada
    Registered: September 2009
    Messages: 733



    NW- I am sitting in the airport waiting for a flight to LaGuardia in NYC and I am reading your post. So, you feel that I have no credibility as a journalist to post news? And how is it not relevant to me personally? I am Gay but does that mean that my profession cancels out my personal life? Or are you objecting to my posting items of interest to the community at large?

    See, you are railing against the community but I would point out that you are also afforded the opportunity to live in the UK where the atmosphere is considerably more relaxed and open about matters that deal with LGBT folk. I would ask if you have traveled and observed the situation here in the U. S. recently? Or, are you suggesting that we should cocoon this MB from the reality of life for people like Matthew Shepard, Steven Lopez-Mercado, or say the recent London attacks and one murder?

    What would you say to a 15 to 25 year old seeking information who may NOT have all at his/her finger tips such as the pink news? (Which, if you'd pop over to my blog you'd note that I feature them prominently.)

    I'm not playing a whose got better credentials game NW. You and I have very similar backgrounds. I too have been at the receiving end of hatred and Gay bashing. If it helps, I am not "preaching" so much as advocating. I may need to get clarification because if it is a matter of semantics then the difference in usage of the mother tongue between 2 distinctly separate cultures that share it may be a problem.

    I am not a columnist NW. I am a reporter although part of the reason that I am here and I also started my blog was to shift gears. I may not comment on a story because I am "lazy" nor do I feel I devalue the news, especially that news that I report. Look up, well or down depending on how the software shifted it. My post on the DC Marriage Law. That is me, doing my job. It is exactly how I put it out on the wire service feeds. I also put it here as I felt it was important.

    You keep saying "...some hypothetical "gay community" okay so I take it mean that should you move here to the U. S. you'd feel that you'd have full rights & equality as a citizen? I have bad news for you.....you wouldn't even be close. Community is a group of like minded individuals or bound by sameness of traits blah blah, blah. What else would you prefer I call it.
    I realise that you & Shem would rather not be defined by your sexuality NW. Hell, neither do I. But let us not kid ourselves. That is a reality. So I ask? What is wrong with using the word Gay Community as the rest of the world does or at least here in the U. S.?

    Oh and as far as not believing everything? Yeah, well I dig for facts for a living so your point there is taken. All told though is seems that you'd rather just have me quietly slip away and not participate as it apparently has upset the apple cart.

    Well I need to run and catch a flight NW, more later.

    Brody
    the heat  [message #59873 is a reply to message #59871] Tue, 01 December 2009 21:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    timmy

    Has no life at all
    Location: UK, in Devon
    Registered: February 2003
    Messages: 13739



    Can we do this less heatedly? Cultural differences apart, we could be getting somewhere, but we won't if we aren't careful



    Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
    Re: balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scales!  [message #59874 is a reply to message #59871] Tue, 01 December 2009 21:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    NW is currently offline  NW

    On fire!
    Location: Worcester, England
    Registered: January 2005
    Messages: 1558



    Brody Levesque wrote:
    > NW- I am sitting in the airport waiting for a flight to LaGuardia in NYC and I am reading your post. So, you feel that I have no credibility as a journalist to post news? And how is it not relevant to me personally? I am Gay but does that mean that my profession cancels out my personal life? Or are you objecting to my posting items of interest to the community at large?

    My objection is to the appearance that you don't seem to be tailoring your posts to those of us who use this forum - the frequent posters, the occasional contributors, and the unseen lurkers. As you note, there are vast cultural differences between the USA and the UK, let alone the other places people here live or come from, and I think posts here are better if they try to take account of that fact specifically.
    >
    > See, you are railing against the community but I would point out that you are also afforded the opportunity to live in the UK where the atmosphere is considerably more relaxed and open about matters that deal with LGBT folk. I would ask if you have traveled and observed the situation here in the U. S. recently? Or, are you suggesting that we should cocoon this MB from the reality of life for people like Matthew Shepard, Steven Lopez-Mercado, or say the recent London attacks and one murder?

    I'm in no sense suggesting that anyone here should be cocooned from reality. But I think a concentration on "big" stories gives a distorted impression - that is most certainly true of London, where the one or two gay killings most years that are highly reported do not give any kind of impression of what it's like to live here. I think that there's a risk of making being gay seem even scarier than it actually is - and such stories need setting firmly in context.
    >
    > What would you say to a 15 to 25 year old seeking information who may NOT have all at his/her finger tips such as the pink news? (Which, if you'd pop over to my blog you'd note that I feature them prominently.)

    It depends on what the information was! Factual info is not hard to find for the average ten-year-old: help interpreting it IS.
    >
    > I'm not playing a whose got better credentials game NW. You and I have very similar backgrounds. I too have been at the receiving end of hatred and Gay bashing. If it helps, I am not "preaching" so much as advocating. I may need to get clarification because if it is a matter of semantics then the difference in usage of the mother tongue between 2 distinctly separate cultures that share it may be a problem.
    >
    > I am not a columnist NW. I am a reporter although part of the reason that I am here and I also started my blog was to shift gears. I may not comment on a story because I am "lazy" nor do I feel I devalue the news, especially that news that I report. Look up, well or down depending on how the software shifted it. My post on the DC Marriage Law. That is me, doing my job. It is exactly how I put it out on the wire service feeds. I also put it here as I felt it was important.

    I'm aware that one of the cultural differences that we both know exist is that there's a profound difference between the USA and the UK when it comes to "journalists". Frankly, here in the UK, they have very little credibility: for years they were the least trusted profession, replaced last year by politicians. But still 72% of people in the UK do not trust journalists to tell the truth. (source: http://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/media/Press-releases/Documents/RCP-Trust-in-Professions-2009-summary.pdf ). I'm afraid that *any* report has to *earn* belief in its credibility and impartiality. That's where the personal comments come in: to establish just that.
    >
    > You keep saying "...some hypothetical "gay community" okay so I take it mean that should you move here to the U. S. you'd feel that you'd have full rights & equality as a citizen? I have bad news for you.....you wouldn't even be close. Community is a group of like minded individuals or bound by sameness of traits blah blah, blah. What else would you prefer I call it.
    > I realise that you & Shem would rather not be defined by your sexuality NW. Hell, neither do I. But let us not kid ourselves. That is a reality. So I ask? What is wrong with using the word Gay Community as the rest of the world does or at least here in the U. S.?

    I *absolutely* don't believe in "a gay community". I think I explained previously that I simply don't believe that there's a sufficient commonality between all the different gay people I know to consider such - hell, some gay people are strongly opposed to gay marriage (because it "apes heterosexuality" or for other reasons), preferring the as-it-is-in-the-UK distinctiveness of Civil Partnerships, while others regard "separate but equal" as tantamount to apartheid.

    Look at it this way. I walk with a stick. That defines me as a cripple, and I'm perfectly happy to use that word. It gives me some commonalities with other disabled people - but lumping us all together as "the disabled community" on the grounds that we all experience discrimination (and believe me, we *do*) is of very limited value - often things that help me may actually hinder those with other disabilities and vice versa.

    There is *plenty* of common cause to be made among LGB people. I'm very happy to concentrate on those things- there's a helluva lot of work still to be done. But a common cause does not a single community make - though it may occasionally make a political movement.
    >
    > Oh and as far as not believing everything? Yeah, well I dig for facts for a living so your point there is taken. All told though is seems that you'd rather just have me quietly slip away and not participate as it apparently has upset the apple cart.

    Some of the upset, I think, comes from cultural misunderstandings, and my first post on this thread may have over-reacted a bit. My original understanding of your initial post taken together: "editorial", "I have carefully read the responses to Tim's questions/pleadings/statements in the past week or so. I have also had numerous chats with him regarding a variety of the subjects that have been discussed on the MB recently as well.", "You know what guys? Mea Culpa and I could care less.", "This is exactly what the kids need to hear", "I have stepped on toes to be certain, but that was bound to happen" may not have been how you intended it to be taken.

    But if I gloss how it came across -intentionally or not - it would be

    "Official - timmy and I have stitched things up in private. I don't give a damn what users of this forum think. there are gonna be big changes and I'm gonna insist that kids need to hear things, rather than asking how I can help, 'cos I know best. If you don't like it, screw you"

    As I say, on mature reflection that may not have been quite how you intended to come across - but it's certainly what I heard in your initial post. And that - if anything possibly could - does point up what I see as the absolute need either to tailor posts to this board to the specific intergenerational and multi-country audience, or to comment and explain.
    >
    > Well I need to run and catch a flight NW, more later.

    Good. Despite what you may think, I've no desire for you to just "slip away quietly": I think you do raise some valid points. But this IS a place of safety, and the manner of your doing so has seemed rather deliberately and pointedly uncaring of possible offense to others - "You know what guys? Mea Culpa and I could care less." is something that I would *love* to "slip away quietly" - it doesn't sit well with the "care and charity" the top of the page requests.

    Mind you, I accept that my own posts on this thread have been rather less temperate than could be desired!
    >
    > Brody



    "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
    Re: balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scal  [message #59875 is a reply to message #59874] Tue, 01 December 2009 22:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    timmy

    Has no life at all
    Location: UK, in Devon
    Registered: February 2003
    Messages: 13739



    I'm going to stay pretty much on the sidelines here. I just want to let folk know that I stitch nothing up. I like the discussion a lot. It's needed. Out of this will come something. What I am not sure.



    Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
    Re: balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scal  [message #59876 is a reply to message #59875] Tue, 01 December 2009 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    NW is currently offline  NW

    On fire!
    Location: Worcester, England
    Registered: January 2005
    Messages: 1558



    timmy wrote:
    > (snip) I just want to let folk know that I stitch nothing up.

    I think we pretty much all know that, but it's always good to hear. Hugs. NW



    "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
    Re: balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scal  [message #59877 is a reply to message #59876] Tue, 01 December 2009 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    timmy

    Has no life at all
    Location: UK, in Devon
    Registered: February 2003
    Messages: 13739



    Smile I'm quite content to let you both move towards understanding each other on the basis that everyone is, I hope, interested.

    What I hope will become apparent is a sort of loose consensus on the ability to publish the news, in some form or other, and Brody knows my serious concerns over licencing, together with making that news approachable, useful and commented on. He who posts news need not be he who comments on it, of course, and yet a list of newsflashes per se would become ignored. After all, we can use a Google news aggregator for that.

    I know that is not the sole issue being discussed. I am using it as an example.

    I have certainly discussed this with Brody. I have discussed it with anyone who has chosen to discuss it with me. But a solution is one thing I do not have. What I like is that we are talking, thinking, choosing.



    Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
    Re: balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scal  [message #59878 is a reply to message #59877] Tue, 01 December 2009 23:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    NW is currently offline  NW

    On fire!
    Location: Worcester, England
    Registered: January 2005
    Messages: 1558



    timmy wrote:
    > Smile I'm quite content to let you both move towards understanding each other on the basis that everyone is, I hope, interested.
    >
    I'm actually desperately hoping that a few more other people will feel able to comment and contribute - I'm already rather scared that it looks like two people disagreeing, rather than an open discussion!

    Someone?

    Please?



    "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
    Re: balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scal  [message #59879 is a reply to message #59878] Tue, 01 December 2009 23:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    Macky is currently offline  Macky

    Really getting into it
    Location: USA
    Registered: November 2008
    Messages: 973



    NW,

    Your points are well taken, I think. It helps that I have been reading your posts and feelings for better than a year, now. I don't know Brody hardly at all.

    Brody does seem to have a certain brashness about him...or at least it seems that way to me. Yet, it would pain me if he were to leave.

    I don't know about everybody else, but I have a hell of a time trying to figure people out. Often, I really don't understand the feeling behind words well. It's hard to do that with posts. It's even harder for me to do that in real life. Maybe as we come to know Brody better, the printed word might take on a different personality than what we initially perceive.

    I hate it when I read anything that seems unkind...not to say that I have never uttered an unkind word, but it is not something I am proud of. I think that the best thing we can do to increase our communication is to say that we feel hurt when we feel that way. Then we can maybe work it out with the person who we were hurt by. Maybe it was a misunderstanding...maybe it was one of our 'hot buttons'...maybe we're just having a shitty day. Anyway, when someone tells me I made them feel bad, it's a real downer for me. I want to increase understanding at that time. I want the opportunity to explain myself. So I think that you do Brody a service when you tell him that you construe something as hurtful.

    Finally, Brody, I apologize for talking about you in the third person. This is impolite and quite verboten on this board. But I hope Timmy won't kick me because I mean no harm. I believe in everyone's good intentions. I believe you have good intentions. I am just trying to understand you better.

    Macky



    Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
    For brothers to dwell together in unity!
    Ps 133:1 NASB
    Re: balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scal  [message #59880 is a reply to message #59876] Tue, 01 December 2009 23:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

    Really getting into it
    Location: US/Canada
    Registered: September 2009
    Messages: 733



    Back~ I am sitting in a buddy's office at NBC looking down on 49th Street marveling at the busy cityscape and New York hustle & bustle. Which brings me to our on-going conversation NW. What I am watching below me reminds me of the fact that there are stark cultural differences between the United States and Britain even though the language is essentially the same.

    So, before anyone else jumps in, I view this thread as a conversation and airing of differences NOT a bloody flame war between NW and myself. Second, I have NOT asked Tim in any way to stitch, pitch, or hitch himself to my wagon or arguments/beliefs. I have tremendous respect for him and if it's not been noted before then I shall note it now. Tim is a valued contributor to my blog, and a much looked forward to daily chat buddy, on a wide ranging menu of topics often to do with current events that have absolutely nothing to do with anything remotely "poof" oriented..... He & I discuss topics sometimes with mutual disagreements as would be expected.

    Turning now to the conversation at hand. Let's start with journalists which has a certain amount of irony to me now at this moment as I am sitting in the midst of a ton of them here in Rockefeller Center at NBC News headquarters. The truth is that yes, our colleagues in the UK have a reputation for being slimy and untrustworthy. Agreed.

    But the same could also hold true anywhere in the world. I will note that here in the U. S., Fox News has been pilloried for being little more than a mouthpiece for the Yank Republican party. In defence of my profession, there are alot of hard working journalists out there NW. Unless you can walk a mile in my shoes, be careful how you view it. Not everyone is a celebrity grabbing, muckraking, blo-hole.

    Community. Okay, here is more than a cultural difference. NW, how the fuck do you propose I explain to a Gay say 16 year old that there is no Gay Community? What do I tell him? Oops, sorry, but you're just another boy who likes to bugger other boys? Now, bear with me. I caught your "cripple" analogy and partially agree. BUT, what these kids need is a level playing field. A sense of "community" helps to make that field level. The part of fulfilling a human need to be part of something. NW, look, again and its prolly a cultural difference. But I get asked that question. " Mr. Levesque, there really is a place for me? There are more in the Gay community like me right?"
    I'll throw that back at you NW. How would you answer that question?

    In this country, and I have lived here since 1979 on and off between assignments, which means I am a mish-mash culturally. (To be honest, I no longer even have my tinny sounding Ontario accent which is sad eh?) It also means that my perceptions are mostly "Americanuck" not unlike the late Peter Jennings a fellow Canadian and journalist.

    I have watched the changes in the atmosphere/environment here for LGBT people. There is such a long way to go and you all in the UK are even further ahead as a society. Community gives these LGBT folk of all ages a place to belong. A place to be accepted. You have your views NW on this and I have mine.

    Okay, postings. Look, you said tailor to the principals currently posting yes? Okay so now we're back to the old gentleman's club or clique mentality? The Lurkers, the kids, the old folks, what I have tried is to bring a variety of material germane to everyone whose LGBT. The jamiehopper kid did note that there was too much news okay and thus you've said. So the question is what comprises a solid base to educate and inform NW? Again, I am speaking as a reporter not a columnist.

    Finally the snide "screw you." Look, I was zapped by the old boy club and I did what would be considered normal, I fought back. I do not make apologies for that. Part of that was cultural and part of it was the fact that it seemed that my profession was held against me and that angered me.

    Being a Gay man, having been Gay Bashed, and having fought too like you for Gay rights, I am an advocate. Believe what you will NW, but I for one am sick unto death of being a second class citizen and treated like evil child molesting dog feces. Look carefully at the stance of say the Roman church and its public proclamation such as what that idiot cardinal said a month ago at the UN Human Rights Committee meeting in Geneva. Paraphrasing that moron: "There are no paedophile priests, just Gay ones."

    Well, your turn.................
    Re: balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scal  [message #59885 is a reply to message #59880] Tue, 01 December 2009 23:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    Macky is currently offline  Macky

    Really getting into it
    Location: USA
    Registered: November 2008
    Messages: 973



    Cool picture Brody. A lot of words could be written about that.

    Macky



    Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
    For brothers to dwell together in unity!
    Ps 133:1 NASB
    i have a question...well more of a request :)  [message #59886 is a reply to message #59880] Wed, 02 December 2009 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    M is currently offline  M

    Likes it here
    Location: USA
    Registered: September 2003
    Messages: 327



    Can we please know brody the person first so we can better understand brody the journalist????

    I'm sure Brody, you are a great journalist who obviously cares about gay issues. Nobody would argue against it. However, this is not the New York Times or Washington Post or whatever major news organization, in here, we also are interested in getting to know the person who is the journalist. You mentioned some interesting stuff already such as being a victim of gay bashing, etc., things of that nature couple with a relevant news story might make it easier to understant where you come from and why it is important we all know.

    Don't get me wrong. The news articles are great. I have read most of them. In fact, sometimes I find out about worthy news stories more often here than any other source. My friends talk about them and I already knew about it before them.

    Btw, this is a great discussion.



    You don't love someone because they are beautiful, they are beautiful because you love them.
    Re: balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scal  [message #59888 is a reply to message #59880] Wed, 02 December 2009 00:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    NW is currently offline  NW

    On fire!
    Location: Worcester, England
    Registered: January 2005
    Messages: 1558



    Lots here, and I hope everyone will excuse me if I cut out some bits and concentrate on others.

    Brody Levesque wrote:
    (snip)
    >
    > Turning now to the conversation at hand. Let's start with journalists which has a certain amount of irony to me now at this moment as I am sitting in the midst of a ton of them here in Rockefeller Center at NBC News headquarters. The truth is that yes, our colleagues in the UK have a reputation for being slimy and untrustworthy. Agreed.
    >
    > But the same could also hold true anywhere in the world. I will note that here in the U. S., Fox News has been pilloried for being little more than a mouthpiece for the Yank Republican party. In defence of my profession, there are alot of hard working journalists out there NW. Unless you can walk a mile in my shoes, be careful how you view it. Not everyone is a celebrity grabbing, muckraking, blo-hole.

    Agreed that there are plenty of decent journalists. But the respect is earned - and (purely as far as I'm concerned) while some of your posts have gone a fair way towards that, the opening couple of sentences of your first post on this thread undid much of that.
    >
    > Community. Okay, here is more than a cultural difference. NW, how the fuck do you propose I explain to a Gay say 16 year old that there is no Gay Community? What do I tell him? Oops, sorry, but you're just another boy who likes to bugger other boys? Now, bear with me. I caught your "cripple" analogy and partially agree. BUT, what these kids need is a level playing field. A sense of "community" helps to make that field level. The part of fulfilling a human need to be part of something. NW, look, again and its prolly a cultural difference. But I get asked that question. " Mr. Levesque, there really is a place for me? There are more in the Gay community like me right?"
    > I'll throw that back at you NW. How would you answer that question?

    I'd answer it in the way that I always do. There are lots of "gay communities", and many of us belong to more than one. What kind of a person are you? There's the gay scene - which can be tough if you're a bit of a shrinking violet. There's the Gay Outdoor Club, if you like canoes, walks and rock-climbing. There's an extremely active gay Dr Who group! And of course, there are the gay sections of all the major political parties if that's what you're into. And, of course, you may run into gay people everywhere - at work, in church, wherever. You can pick and mix whatever suits you - there are plenty of people who share a lot of your interests and outlooks on life. But, if I can suggest, it's probably sensible to avoid Gaydar for your first couple of times meeting other gay men - some of the regulars there can be rather exploitative and chicken-hawk-like. And remember - I'm here to support you, though you'll establish your own network of friends (on-line and realworld) soon enough.
    >
    > In this country, and I have lived here since 1979 on and off between assignments, which means I am a mish-mash culturally. (To be honest, I no longer even have my tinny sounding Ontario accent which is sad eh?) It also means that my perceptions are mostly "Americanuck" not unlike the late Peter Jennings a fellow Canadian and journalist.
    >
    > I have watched the changes in the atmosphere/environment here for LGBT people. There is such a long way to go and you all in the UK are even further ahead as a society. Community gives these LGBT folk of all ages a place to belong. A place to be accepted. You have your views NW on this and I have mine.
    >
    Everyone needs to belong. That's very different from pretending that we're all the same, or even all remotely similar. We *don't* all have to belong to the same place.


    > Okay, postings. Look, you said tailor to the principals currently posting yes?

    No, I said "the frequent posters, the occasional contributors, and the unseen lurkers.".

    > Okay so now we're back to the old gentleman's club or clique mentality? The Lurkers, the kids, the old folks, what I have tried is to bring a variety of material germane to everyone whose LGBT. The jamiehopper kid did note that there was too much news okay and thus you've said. So the question is what comprises a solid base to educate and inform NW? Again, I am speaking as a reporter not a columnist.

    That, I think, is the basaic point of difference. I believe that there's a fundamental incompatibility between primarily "supporting and discussing and sharing" (which hitherto I have felt to be the point of the forum) and primarily "educating and informing" - a lot of which is covered in some detail on timmy's main site.

    For me, the essential starting point has to be where the person asking advice, or for support, or wishing to share personal experience is starting from. That's pretty much what timmy has at the top of the forum! And that's why I feel so strongly that just "news" without a direct personal sharing is inappropriate.

    Furthermore, putting it very crudely, nearly everyone here (young and old) has shared very deeply personal experiences - at considerable pain and emotional cost. I haven't yet seen much of this from you, Brody, and I feel that impersonal LGB news with no comment sits uncomfortably in such an environment. It's not the sharing news that I have a problem with - it's the impersonal nature.

    >
    > Finally the snide "screw you." Look, I was zapped by the old boy club and I did what would be considered normal, I fought back. I do not make apologies for that. Part of that was cultural and part of it was the fact that it seemed that my profession was held against me and that angered me.

    Well, I do think you're seeing communities - in this case an entirely fictitious "old boys club" where there are none! I think you've had a lot more licence to be brash and aggressive - and from time to time downright bloody rude and offensive - than is normally accorded posters here. If I were a lurker, I'd damn well think twice before posting anything that might make you "fight back".
    >
    > Being a Gay man, having been Gay Bashed, and having fought too like you for Gay rights, I am an advocate. Believe what you will NW, but I for one am sick unto death of being a second class citizen and treated like evil child molesting dog feces. Look carefully at the stance of say the Roman church and its public proclamation such as what that idiot cardinal said a month ago at the UN Human Rights Committee meeting in Geneva. Paraphrasing that moron: "There are no paedophile priests, just Gay ones."

    Like you, I'm an advocate. However, I'm NOT merely an advocate of gay rights (nor of cripples rights): I am advocate of diversity - of the right of all people to be considered and treated equally as individuals, with respect. I feel that several of your posts haven't done that, and that you are so concerned with the aim of "gay rights" as an abstract cause that you are at risk of causing considerable "collateral damage" and alienating many of the very gay people that both you and I seek to make life better for.
    >
    > Well, your turn.................
    so back to you.

    I may not get much chance to post here tomorrow - I have a 14-hour working day ahead, and while sometimes I can post when at work, often I can't. So if I appear not to reply for a while, consider it a treat in store!



    "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
    Re: balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scal  [message #59889 is a reply to message #59888] Wed, 02 December 2009 00:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    timmy

    Has no life at all
    Location: UK, in Devon
    Registered: February 2003
    Messages: 13739



    There's a question in there for me, I think. So I'll grasp that nettle.

    I think we need this... hmm.... not sure I have the word for it. ?provocation? to get us back on track again.

    If Brody has aggravated folk then for the present, that's ok. But it's short term, and normal service will be resumed once we work out what this place is for again. We lost our normal service recently, and we are working out what the right track is.



    Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
    Re: balance - but please don't sand-bag one side of the scal  [message #59892 is a reply to message #59888] Wed, 02 December 2009 04:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

    Really getting into it
    Location: US/Canada
    Registered: September 2009
    Messages: 733



    So where were we NW? Ah yes, as I reach for another shot of Jameson's, as I'm in a pub near Tribeca getting pissed which is definitely a reporter's prerogative given the day its been. Oh, I am not ignoring the other contributors to this ongoing discussion either and I'll try to respond as I go along but I'll caution that the more of the Irish I ingest, the less lucid I'm prolly going to become.

    "Agreed that there are plenty of decent journalists. But the respect is earned - and (purely as far as I'm concerned) while some of your posts have gone a fair way towards that, the opening couple of sentences of your first post on this thread undid much of that." Hmm, see most of my posts have been news articles and not me offering an opinion. So I fail to see how my offering an opinion on this thread renders the news stories rubbish.

    Speaking of which, As I promised Tim and in partial response to the critique of verbatim re-post/publishing of articles. According to my lawyer, who unbelievably actually returned my call on not only the same day but within hours of my voicemail request, said this: "Brody, under terms of copyright & licence for articles under Title 17 USC's fair use clauses as amended; IF You are originator/holder of licence then in entirety is permissible. Also this applies if you retain rights or grant use. IF the use is also in a non-profit setting and is education or informative fair use governs primary use of entire articles with clear credit and identifiable means of the works to include media such as photography. Other than that, brief quotations only along with proper credit of works origin or authors for the purposes of copyright." An email from Chilling Effects also more or less said the same thing but in pretty much plainer English without the legalese.

    In plain language. If it has my By-line on it, Tim is covered 100%. If not, unless I have obtained permission/licence from the originator of the works, then it should only be quoted from etc. Now, in going back over my posts, some of which are actually Press Releases which are entirely different creatures, I have not violated the spirit and tenets of the copyright law.

    BUT, this is where I bring NW, Jamie,Shem,Tim, and all the rest back into the conversation. (It's too bad Nigel hasn't weighed in as he was a school master/teacher and I'd love his take on what I am about to say.)

    I do not feel that my posting news articles especially those that I have written is impersonal NW & Jamie, Shem, Tim, et al. I strongly feel that the News is a resource. A story makes for a "teaching moment," a lesson on life if you'd prefer. A wealth of experience is often brought to bear by a discussion that is initiated in such a fashion. Are you 4 going to sit there and tell me that you don't discuss current events? Or that those discussion more often than not commenced because of exposure to something that was said or written about in the press? If you do, I'd be the first to yell bullshit!

    Hmm, next point: "Everyone needs to belong. That's very different from pretending that we're all the same, or even all remotely similar. We *don't* all have to belong to the same place." Okay, the community word again. First of all, (holds up a mirror and points at NW's reflection in it.) BRITISH!!!!!!!!! Hello love, You Brit, Me, well okay bad example, (Grabs Macky and shoves him in-front of mirror.) HIM? Yank! Different cultures!

    Look, I'll give you an example. My first real exposure to ANY Gay community was a show stopper. I watched as an angry GAY COMMUNITY toasted a dozen San Francisco Police Cars and wreaked havoc and unleashed the dogs of war on the city's streets after 12 peers of a murderer decided that they bought his Gay panic Twinkie defence and let him get off with manslaughter charges. So, what happened? Faggots Zero Breeders 1, yup, May 21st, 1979. For the younger readers and lurkers and also those who don't understand my reference, I am talking about the White Night Riots after the murderer of Mayor George Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk was given a lenient sentence.

    Now according to your theory of Gay communities, it was what? An Angry Leathermen Community? Plus a Distressed Drag Queens Community? Also Lesbians having really bad hair days? Or just plain Faggots on a rampage? Separate communities all burning down the City of San Francisco that night?

    Every community has diversity NW. But where you and I part ways is that I see a greater community of human beings that have the same sexual urges, being disenfranchised by other human beings that say what I feel, what my fellow Gay brethren and Lesbian sisters feel is evil and sinful and abnormal. YOU say diversity but do not acknowledge that there is a common thread. This is where I can see a cultural difference.

    Hmm, next was this I think: "That, I think, is the basic point of difference. I believe that there's a fundamental incompatibility between primarily "supporting and discussing and sharing" (which hitherto I have felt to be the point of the forum) and primarily "educating and informing" - a lot of which is covered in some detail on timmy's main site."

    Right, so I post again based on the fact that I think that news spurs on greater discussion. As far as personal? Nobody bloody asked till now and the few times I did mention a personal bit or two. It was ignored. I am not insulted by that either.

    Discussion & Sharing, what was that Jamie said? Hang on, I need to slog over to that thread, brb. Ah here: "Without sounding like a smart aleck, I’d like to say that not too many kids are going to open up and ask for help on a message board that seems to be for news alerts and guys discussing all their experience.
    I know how I felt when I first saw the phrase “anal sex” on here. Dang Almighty, I hadn’t even held another boy’s hand yet. Gulp!" Okay, So, where do we find balance? You are rating me on my profession NW. Consider what it is I do for a living, Jamie and the rest? You too. I am a journalist who works in the MAINSTREAM... Okay? I do NOT work in the LGBT media. I cover stories and then hand them off to be in-depth reported on by my peers or colleagues. As a result, it is second nature for me to operate this way. The difference being that I post here news that is pertinent to the LGBT folks here.

    NW then you said; "Furthermore, putting it very crudely, nearly everyone here (young and old) has shared very deeply personal experiences - at considerable pain and emotional cost. I haven't yet seen much of this from you, Brody, and I feel that impersonal LGB news with no comment sits uncomfortably in such an environment. It's not the sharing news that I have a problem with - it's the impersonal nature." You are asking a reporter to ignore experience and training of over 30 years. I deal in facts NW. WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHEN, WHY, and HOW! MY personal take on this was to bring that experience with me, here, share it by way of stories that I run/ran across that may provoke discussions. So I am wrong by assuming that apparently I just farted in an elevator here? That is the impression I am getting. Oh by the way, I noticed you left the "T" off of the acronym. I gather you are one of those who feel that Transgendered is not quite a good fit for the Queer community at large?

    As I am half pissed I should leave off here. Oh, me being rude and obnoxious. Yup, that pretty much covers it. However you are overlooking one singularly important fact NW. I happen to give a serious flying fuck about my fellow LGBT human beings. Yeah, I am way critical sometimes. I have found that all too often that tired old cliche of silence equals death is true. I have also found that complacency is just as bad NW.
    But I will defend a Gay Kid, A Gay Senior, A Transgendered Male or Female in a New York Minute with every ounce of energy and heart I possess.
    I know what it feels like to hurt and be hurt. More-so, I worry for the future of the LGBT kids in the generations coming up. What kind of world will they inherit from us NW?

    Its of a damned deep personal nature as I am the parent of a 20 almost 21 year old Gay son. Why do you think I report on even the really bad shit NW? Like that kid in Puerto Rico? Its because in my world, information equals being prepared, being informed, being educated. Okay. Its official I am drunk and have made an arse of myself, but I'll let you all point that out.
    Oh and Jamiehopper? See below:

    [Updated on: Wed, 02 December 2009 04:31]

    Personal versus impersonal  [message #59896 is a reply to message #59888] Wed, 02 December 2009 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    acam is currently offline  acam

    On fire!
    Location: UK
    Registered: July 2007
    Messages: 1849



    NW wrote:
    "For me, the essential starting point has to be where the person asking advice, or for support, or wishing to share personal experience is starting from. That's pretty much what timmy has at the top of the forum! And that's why I feel so strongly that just "news" without a direct personal sharing is inappropriate.

    Furthermore, putting it very crudely, nearly everyone here (young and old) has shared very deeply personal experiences - at considerable pain and emotional cost. I haven't yet seen much of this from you, Brody, and I feel that impersonal LGB news with no comment sits uncomfortably in such an environment. It's not the sharing news that I have a problem with - it's the impersonal nature."

    I find myself agreeing with NW - as usual, may I say - and thinking to myself I wonder how it came about that I confessed the things I was most ashamed about to this forum before anyone else except my wife - and come to think of it I haven't really confessed them to anyone else. I have two old friends staying and I haven't told them although they have known me for fifty years and of course know I am gay and so on.

    And I suppose what brought me to be able to confess was the way people commented on other people's troubles and tried to help. I joined in too and tried to help. And I want to get to know people like the people here (and that includes you, Brody).

    When I was young I used to say that the way to get to know someone well was to take them to bed. Those are the conversations when you can reveal your secret feelings. I want to get into bed with the people here and feel for them and help them. As they feel for me and help me even if the only thing they can do is help me get over my inhibitions. And do you hear what I'm saying - I'm 75 on Friday and I haven't got over my inhibitions yet!

    And I'd like to know more about how Brody brought up his son and what he found difficult about it and so on but perhaps I should say so because I think it would be unwise to ask and might do the opposite of what I intend - so please take it as a non-specific example.

    Love,
    Anthony
    Back to the left margin, and summary  [message #59897 is a reply to message #59847] Wed, 02 December 2009 10:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    timmy

    Has no life at all
    Location: UK, in Devon
    Registered: February 2003
    Messages: 13739



    Summary so far, I THINK, so correct me if I have this wrong
    1. We like relevant news
    2. we prefer that the news be commented upon, whether pasted entire or simply linked to
    3. where the news is important, truly important, the news overrides our preference for style
    4. we very much prefer that someone is an emotional and intellectual contributor here in addition to any other style of contribution
    5. we are people, we want to know the person behind the post, pretty much always
    6. Brash, even rude, we can accept, though we do insist that this is turned down over time. We are friends, or people who expect to be friends, even if we never meet face to face
    7. news, news, news is a thing people tune out after a very short while, like banner adverts
    How did I do? What have I missed out? What have I included that is a product of my own desires, not what you have all said so far?

    I want to depersonalise this entirely. Yes, we have Brody, a professional reporter (note the difference between that and columnist, and ask him if you are unsure), who has ruffled feathers here, partly because of what he has to say and partly because we do not, yet, know him, and we have the rest of us who are somewhat set in our ways, old and young alike, new and old, too.

    I have no idea where this discussion will lead, but I do know that it is worth having, and worth thrashing out with emotion, though with no personal attacks in any direction at all. This is an intellectual discussion with emotion, not a fight, not a war. We have strong opinions, strongly held, and we are willing to discuss those opinions, and even yield ground on parts of them

    Out of this will come another facet of whatever we each understand a gay community to be. And we will all be individually and jointly better for it.

    [Updated on: Wed, 02 December 2009 10:57]




    Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
    OK, this is the more "sensible" reply ...  [message #59898 is a reply to message #59892] Wed, 02 December 2009 10:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    NW is currently offline  NW

    On fire!
    Location: Worcester, England
    Registered: January 2005
    Messages: 1558



    (in an effort to avoid confusion, quotes from previous posts of mine are in blue, brody's bits are in italic as is normal for quoted)

    Brody Levesque wrote:
    (snip)
    >
    "Agreed that there are plenty of decent journalists. But the respect is earned - and (purely as far as I'm concerned) while some of your posts have gone a fair way towards that, the opening couple of sentences of your first post on this thread undid much of that."
    > Hmm, see most of my posts have been news articles and not me offering an opinion. So I fail to see how my offering an opinion on this thread renders the news stories rubbish.

    You're not hearing what I'm saying about the first couple of sentences. I'd hoped my gloss in a previous post would have clarified, but apparently it hasn't. I'm sorry that there is no way this can not come across as personal - it's you that have chosen to make a big thing about your professional writing. So - it kicks off with "Editorial". According to the dictionaries I've looked at, both UK and USA, that does imply that it's something expressing the views of the owner, manager, publisher, or a person appointed by them. This is pretty much reinforced when you go on to say "I have carefully read the responses to Tim's questions/pleadings/statements in the past week or so. I have also had numerous chats with him regarding a variety of the subjects that have been discussed on the MB recently as well. As I've said, I pretty much took that as explicit declaration that the views expressed in your post (as opposed to merely the fact of your posting) had timmy's full support and blessing.
    My understanding of timmy's subsequent comment is that this is not necessarily the case.

    So, as far as I can see, this can't be a case of misunderstanding through cultural difference. It must therefore be:
  • either a sloppiness to the meanings and use of words that would be inappropriate in someone who deals with them professionally, and showing a lack of care and courtesy to those here reading them
  • or a deliberate attempt to mislead.

    I don't see a third option. Do you?

    Either way, I hope I've now clarified why your initial post on this thread caused me to re-evaluate all your writings with a certain sceptical attitude.

    (snip)

    >
    > BUT, this is where I bring NW, Jamie,Shem,Tim, and all the rest back into the conversation. (It's too bad Nigel hasn't weighed in as he was a school master/teacher and I'd love his take on what I am about to say.)
    >
    > I do not feel that my posting news articles especially those that I have written is impersonal NW & Jamie, Shem, Tim, et al. I strongly feel that the News is a resource. A story makes for a "teaching moment," a lesson on life if you'd prefer. A wealth of experience is often brought to bear by a discussion that is initiated in such a fashion. Are you 4 going to sit there and tell me that you don't discuss current events? Or that those discussion more often than not commenced because of exposure to something that was said or written about in the press? If you do, I'd be the first to yell bullshit!

    Again, you're not hearing that I don't think this place is about "teaching" - I think it's about learning from each other. Of course many discussions start from current news - but not from me waving a press clipping in front of someone's nose in the pub: they start from me saying "did you see that ... what a load of balls / isn't it great / reminds me of when / ". A press piece may trigger a discussion, but it isn't the start of one - by itself it's just information to be placed in context.

    So, please, can you explain exactly what benefits you think may accrue from turning this place into a lecture-hall? How is being "taught" (as opposed to being encouraged to share-and-learn) going to appeal to kids, posters, lurkers or whoever? Personally, I think it's both an ego-trip on the part of the "teacher" and a turn-off for those being "taught".
    >
    Hmm, next point: "Everyone needs to belong. That's very different from pretending that we're all the same, or even all remotely similar. We *don't* all have to belong to the same place." Okay, the community word again. First of all, (holds up a mirror and points at NW's reflection in it.) BRITISH!!!!!!!!! Hello love, You Brit, Me, well okay bad example, (Grabs Macky and shoves him in-front of mirror.) HIM? Yank! Different cultures!

    No, I'm not "Brit" - that's a word which many of us here regard as deeply derogatory, and all-too-often used as a hate word. Maybe you didn't know this: you do now.
    >
    > Look, I'll give you an example. My first real exposure to ANY Gay community was a show stopper. I watched as an angry GAY COMMUNITY toasted a dozen San Francisco Police Cars and wreaked havoc and unleashed the dogs of war on the city's streets after 12 peers of a murderer decided that they bought his Gay panic Twinkie defence and let him get off with manslaughter charges. So, what happened? Faggots Zero Breeders 1, yup, May 21st, 1979. For the younger readers and lurkers and also those who don't understand my reference, I am talking about the White Night Riots after the murderer of Mayor George Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk was given a lenient sentence.

    That is exactly the kind of thing that I think *does* belong here - deeply-felt, personal ... can you see the difference?
    >
    > Now according to your theory of Gay communities, it was what? An Angry Leathermen Community? Plus a Distressed Drag Queens Community? Also Lesbians having really bad hair days? Or just plain Faggots on a rampage? Separate communities all burning down the City of San Francisco that night?
    >
    As I said previously, "There is *plenty* of common cause to be made among LGB people. I'm very happy to concentrate on those things- there's a helluva lot of work still to be done. But a common cause does not a single community make - though it may occasionally make a political movement." And that is what I think such occasions represent - a movement, whether short-lived or long. Look, I went on the original "stop the war" march here in London - the biggest demo there has been here in many a long year. I was marching shoulder-to-shoulder with people such as militant Islamists, with whom I had and have absolutely nothing in common apart from a belief that the invasion was illegal and morally unjustifiable. There is no way on earth that the notion of "community" can meaningfully be applied simply because people make occasional common cause!


    > Every community has diversity NW. But where you and I part ways is that I see a greater community of human beings that have the same sexual urges, being disenfranchised by other human beings that say what I feel, what my fellow Gay brethren and Lesbian sisters feel is evil and sinful and abnormal. YOU say diversity but do not acknowledge that there is a common thread. This is where I can see a cultural difference.

    I see greater commonalities with straight people who will support me being gay in whatever way I choose than I do with LGB people who try to tell me that because I'm gay I ought to feel and think in certain ways. A gay card is not a passport to tolerance - the level of abuse from "the community" experienced by those LGB in the 1980s who wanted monogamous relationships, and faced today by those LGB people self-identifying as having a strong religious faith is proof enough of that!

    Hmm, next was this I think: "That, I think, is the basic point of difference. I believe that there's a fundamental incompatibility between primarily "supporting and discussing and sharing" (which hitherto I have felt to be the point of the forum) and primarily "educating and informing" - a lot of which is covered in some detail on timmy's main site."
    >
    > Right, so I post again based on the fact that I think that news spurs on greater discussion. As far as personal? Nobody bloody asked till now and the few times I did mention a personal bit or two. It was ignored. I am not insulted by that either.

    It's usually considered good netiquette to get a feel for a particular forum before jumping in at the deep end. I don't really see how you could have escaped seeing how important that "personal" is here if you'd gone back a couple of months worth of postings. But I think a few people on this thread have indicated that they *do* consider it important, so perhaps you might think about that. Not so much the factual stuff - although that's always good - but about how you *feel* about it, *why* you're where you are.


    > Discussion & Sharing, what was that Jamie said? Hang on, I need to slog over to that thread, brb. Ah here: "Without sounding like a smart aleck, I’d like to say that not too many kids are going to open up and ask for help on a message board that seems to be for news alerts and guys discussing all their experience.
    > I know how I felt when I first saw the phrase “anal sex” on here. Dang Almighty, I hadn’t even held another boy’s hand yet. Gulp!" Okay, So, where do we find balance? You are rating me on my profession NW. Consider what it is I do for a living, Jamie and the rest? You too. I am a journalist who works in the MAINSTREAM... Okay? I do NOT work in the LGBT media. I cover stories and then hand them off to be in-depth reported on by my peers or colleagues. As a result, it is second nature for me to operate this way. The difference being that I post here news that is pertinent to the LGBT folks here.

    I kinda hope that this place isn't about each of doing things that are "second nature". I hope it's about us trying to communicate, and to try to modify how we communicate so that we can do so more effectively. That's partly why I've had *so* many attempts at trying to cover the same ground - you give the impression that you are simply not understanding what I'm saying, rather than challenging the points I make.
    >
    > NW then you said; "Furthermore, putting it very crudely, nearly everyone here (young and old) has shared very deeply personal experiences - at considerable pain and emotional cost. I haven't yet seen much of this from you, Brody, and I feel that impersonal LGB news with no comment sits uncomfortably in such an environment. It's not the sharing news that I have a problem with - it's the impersonal nature." You are asking a reporter to ignore experience and training of over 30 years. I deal in facts NW. WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHEN, WHY, and HOW! MY personal take on this was to bring that experience with me, here, share it by way of stories that I run/ran across that may provoke discussions. So I am wrong by assuming that apparently I just farted in an elevator here? That is the impression I am getting. Oh by the way, I noticed you left the "T" off of the acronym. I gather you are one of those who feel that Transgendered is not quite a good fit for the Queer community at large?

    Yup, I do feel that trans-people are not necessarily a good fit in all contexts with LGB people: no need to "gather" it though, as you replied to a post of mine on the subject only a few days ago. Remembering what people say is one of the ways we try to show that we value them - that has pretty much been a community value here for as long as I've been coming.

    And no, you're not wrong in assuming you've just farted in the elevator, at least as far as I'm concerned. If I want a stream of news stories, I have a set of daily google alerts and an RSS feed from Pinknews that give me that. What I value is comments on news stories, ways that they affect individual people, discussions about what the news "means", how to interpret it, what to do about it. I sure as hell don't want to be on the receiving end of a "teaching moment"
    >
    > As I am half pissed I should leave off here. Oh, me being rude and obnoxious. Yup, that pretty much covers it. However you are overlooking one singularly important fact NW. I happen to give a serious flying fuck about my fellow LGBT human beings. Yeah, I am way critical sometimes. I have found that all too often that tired old cliche of silence equals death is true. I have also found that complacency is just as bad NW.

    I have *never* advocated silence, nor ever would I. But I *do* respect the fact that we have different lives, and what's been possible for you or me may not have been, or currently be, either possible or prudent for other people. we're all different. And if you think I'm complacent, I suspect it shows how very little you know me or have read of my posts here. But perhaps I should leave that to others to judge.

    > But I will defend a Gay Kid, A Gay Senior, A Transgendered Male or Female in a New York Minute with every ounce of energy and heart I possess.
    > I know what it feels like to hurt and be hurt. More-so, I worry for the future of the LGBT kids in the generations coming up. What kind of world will they inherit from us NW?
    >
    > Its of a damned deep personal nature as I am the parent of a 20 almost 21 year old Gay son. Why do you think I report on even the really bad shit NW? Like that kid in Puerto Rico? Its because in my world, information equals being prepared, being informed, being educated.

    I agree. But what makes you think that *this* forum is the right place to have such information rammed down one's throat - or that comment-free ramming of information is in any way empowering?


    > Okay. Its official I am drunk and have made an arse of myself, but I'll let you all point that out.

    Well, it's good of you to say it. But it does rather point out the utter disrespect in which you seem to hold everyone else here: this discussion is serious, and timmy has indicated that he sees it as important for the future direction of the forum. He, I, and others deserve better than that.



    "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
  • Re: OK, this is the more "sensible" reply ...  [message #59899 is a reply to message #59898] Wed, 02 December 2009 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    timmy

    Has no life at all
    Location: UK, in Devon
    Registered: February 2003
    Messages: 13739



    Your post hit at exactly the same time as my summary. I think I had already included in it the salient points you have made and hope you will tell me what I have missed out.

    I view this discussion as very necessary because I think the forum has been dying. Discussions like this one are long overdue.



    Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
    Re: OK, this is the more "sensible" reply ...  [message #59900 is a reply to message #59899] Wed, 02 December 2009 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    NW is currently offline  NW

    On fire!
    Location: Worcester, England
    Registered: January 2005
    Messages: 1558



    I think it's a pretty fair summary, timmy.

    I would slightly take issue over the " Brash, even rude, we can accept, though we do insist that this is turned down over time., though. I don't think there's any excuse for starting a thread in that way - though there may a bit of a one for "losing it" in the course of heated discussion.

    I'd also suggest that, in general, references to private chats and off-the-board contacts we may each have with each other are to be made with considerable discretion, lest people (wrongly) start feeling excluded.

    Given all that, I'll stick with the "sensible" reply above, and not amplify it (as I'd originally intended to) with an equally "brash" post about how it actually made me feel.



    "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
    Re: OK, this is the more "sensible" reply ...  [message #59901 is a reply to message #59900] Wed, 02 December 2009 12:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    timmy

    Has no life at all
    Location: UK, in Devon
    Registered: February 2003
    Messages: 13739



    I was a little wary of that, but we have often helped our brasher friends become less brash.



    Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
    Re: Back to the left margin, and summary  [message #59902 is a reply to message #59897] Wed, 02 December 2009 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    JFR is currently offline  JFR

    On fire!
    Location: Israel
    Registered: October 2004
    Messages: 1367



    I have not taken part in several of the recent threads because I truly did not think that I had anything to say that had not already been said - and probably it was said better than I would have managed anyway. (For example, NW's sterling posts in this thread: what could I possibly add that would not be just wasting people's time?)

    But I also know that sometimes silence can be misinterpreted as dissent, disagreement. So I am just posting this to express assent and agreement to what Timmy has summarised here.

    J F R



    The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
    The discussion rolls forward.... And shifting to impersonal  [message #59903 is a reply to message #59902] Wed, 02 December 2009 13:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

    Really getting into it
    Location: US/Canada
    Registered: September 2009
    Messages: 733



    "It's usually considered good netiquette to get a feel for a particular forum before jumping in at the deep end."

    Maybe once upon a time that was true. Not any more as most forums are struggling with the onslaught of social networking sites like Facebook or YouTube or MySpace where people interact on an immediate basis.

    That comment got me onto a frenzy of e-mail and chat conversations with forum operators on several different continents. And yeah, the "reporter" in me was intrigued. Also, I take exception at that phrase because it runs counter to Tim's desire to have discussions here that may include controversy.

    Tim himself pointed out that the MB was dying. I took that a step further and called it a "quaint old gentleman's club." IF, you are going to have 100% participation, then you bloody well shouldn't limit folks to a standard that effectively muzzles them from the git-go. Sometimes jumping in the deep end is necessary and jumps starts thought.

    According to other MB operators or using the old school label of "sysops," that I have communicated with thus far, their boards are dying partly due to being considered anachronisms that no longer serve their targeted audiences. Okay? Well?

    "No, I'm not "Brit" - that's a word which many of us here regard as deeply derogatory, and all-too-often used as a hate word. Maybe you didn't know this: you do now." This is the first time I have ever heard that word compared to "faggot, nigger, wop- hell pick a word that is associated with hate speech. I even checked with colleagues, some of whom are British by the way and they were as mystified as I was. So, that was interesting...

    Anyway, I've looked down the post and have decided that nothing further will be gained as this discussion has in fact accomplished a great deal. Whether or not the outcome is productive remains to be seen.

    I do feel though that there is a certain amount of resistance to change and accommodation of those who do not fit within the "parameters" of what some here feel as acceptable. NOT pointing fingers.......... So no bloody 'blue' quotes needed.

    I have one final statement though. I am NOT, repeat NOT, going to apologise for what I have stated on the MB or in this thread. Period. If you all feel that I am rude, brash, provocative, etc, so be it. This world is made up of all types and not everybody's personality meshes with what some may desire as the "accepted" standard for a community.

    Nor do I view this thread as a commencement of hostilities between myself and "the crown." In fact, I think that once again, this proves the point that changes are inevitable and that as each generation moves forward to take their place in their respective societies there will be conflicts.

    Oh, and lest I forget. Since there is not an acceptable standard of reporting for me to adhere to at this MB, I'll leave off for now. However, I do have blog where I post stuff that I feel is pertinent or timely and of course Tim is also a much welcomed contributor there and you all should read what he has to say.

    Now, another point to all this is that this place needs an infusion of new readers/posters/lurkers maybe. It also needs to be pertinent and make salient points that fulfill the purpose of it's mission statement and its owner. From my take as a reporter, it was dying and had atrophied into a parody of itself. Like me or not, doesn't matter. The point is that I felt, and still feel strongly enough about Tim's work here that I was willing to jump in and fart in the elevator. I make NO apologies for that.

    Sometimes it takes a brash member of a hated profession to accomplish that. DO NOT bother replying to that last statement okay? Just think about what I've said.

    Finally, on the subject of the Gay Community. NW if you ever get the chance to trip over to this side of the pond, please look me up in D. C. I have some "Yank" stuff I'd love to show you. My phone number is listed in my profile here at the MB.

    I'm Brody Levesque, back to you...(all)

    [Updated on: Wed, 02 December 2009 13:58]

    Re: The discussion rolls forward.... And shifting to impersonal  [message #59904 is a reply to message #59903] Wed, 02 December 2009 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    NW is currently offline  NW

    On fire!
    Location: Worcester, England
    Registered: January 2005
    Messages: 1558



    OK, you've checked with all kinds of other people and places. Maybe you have, maybe it's another "editorial".

    On the Brit thing, a poll on a major UK gay website last year showed that about a third of us find it offensive - I could look up the exact figure, but don't see why I should be arsed.

    This place isn't like other places, and in my view if it's going to be somewhere that people - young and otherwise - that people can ask pretty personal stuff, it needs not to be. So I regard all your "but I've checked with ..." as so irrelevant as to be valueless.

    Yes, this place needs to freshen up a bit: I think few would disagree. But to turn it into somewhere where mendacity and insult are the normal mode of discourse is to my mind inappropriate - I will not miss you.



    "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
    Re: The discussion rolls forward.... And shifting to impersonal  [message #59905 is a reply to message #59904] Wed, 02 December 2009 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

    Really getting into it
    Location: US/Canada
    Registered: September 2009
    Messages: 733



    I'm NOT going anywhere NW... I had read the summary that Tim prepared and read its points and after consideration of what was stated, including your views, I take it that posting of the news in the form I was using is not acceptable.

    Now I have said this and I shall make this clear to you here and now. I didn't take our discussion personally and I fail to see where you should unless you strongly feel that I was launching a direct attack on you. Was this your perception of what I was saying?

    Now having said that, your

    "This place isn't like other places, and in my view if it's going to be somewhere that people - young and otherwise - that people can ask pretty personal stuff, it needs not to be. So I regard all your "but I've checked with ..." as so irrelevant as to be valueless."

    could be construed as exactly what I was arguing about. That last bit was the "I've been here since the dawn of creation and you're not playing in this sandbox the way we {I} expect a person to."

    Okay, so where does that leave room for diversity NW? More-so, where does that leave room for accepting any other position or stance in an argument/discussion save yours? That really makes it sound that as far as you are concerned there's not a damn thing worthy or even to be considered from me as a person and me as a professional. That's a kind of conceit that even I have a hard time with.

    NOW, do NOT please respond to this in public as I fear that this may be viewed as a commencement of hostilities. My e-mail is publicly listed in the profile.

    I am not going to get into a flame war as that's counterproductive. Tim's summary and the input stands and I am okay with that.
    Re: The discussion rolls forward.... And shifting to impersonal  [message #59911 is a reply to message #59905] Wed, 02 December 2009 15:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    NW is currently offline  NW

    On fire!
    Location: Worcester, England
    Registered: January 2005
    Messages: 1558



    Brody Levesque wrote:

    > "This place isn't like other places, and in my view if it's going to be somewhere that people - young and otherwise - that people can ask pretty personal stuff, it needs not to be. So I regard all your "but I've checked with ..." as so irrelevant as to be valueless."
    >
    > could be construed as exactly what I was arguing about. That last bit was the "I've been here since the dawn of creation and you're not playing in this sandbox the way we {I} expect a person to."

    Not intended that way. For any business or marketing plan we need to think about exactly what we're trying to achieve, and what the unique features are. For any re-branding, we need to think about what we wish to preserve that is good of the old, and which areas can benefit from a new approach. I don't think you've given any thought to this whatsoever - everything you've posted seems to assume it's just another identikit clone site. I think I've articulated what I see as the strong points: I think it would have been helpful if you had felt able to do likewise.
    >

    >
    > NOW, do NOT please respond to this in public as I fear that this may be viewed as a commencement of hostilities. My e-mail is publicly listed in the profile.
    >
    I don't do private e-mails on threads from this (or really any other) site, and I very rarely reply to private e-mails arising from such threads. To do so gives - IMO - the appearance of cliques and stitch-ups: there's been enough of that on this thread already.

    > I am not going to get into a flame war as that's counterproductive. Tim's summary and the input stands and I am okay with that.

    As always, timmy's site, timmy's rules. I'm happy with the summary - if I don't like how the site turns out, no-one forces me to stay here.



    "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
    My notes:  [message #59913 is a reply to message #59847] Wed, 02 December 2009 15:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    saben is currently offline  saben

    On fire!

    Registered: May 2003
    Messages: 1537



    -I don't believe in "a gay community" but rather "gay communities". A Place of Safety is a fully contained community. And there are lots and lots of other communities. There is gay commonality. There is a shared experience and shared struggling. But that isn't a "community" to my mind. Communities are smaller than that. Communities have in-jokes and behavioural standards and things like that. A particular nightclub might be something of a community. Or a particular branch of PFLAG. But beyond that I'd use terms like "gay society" or "gay culture". I understand that culture intermixes and one culture isn't shared by all GLBT people. But it does the concept better justice than "community". A bunch of queers coming together politically for a cause is not a community. But it is important, nonetheless.

    -As for the news. Well imagine going to a PFLAG meeting and just handing out a bunch of press releases and talking about trans issues when the meeting was meant to discuss a bake sale or how to help a certain parent deal with a child. Or try going to a gay night club and discussing the Matthew Shepherd hate crime bill as a political issue. If discussion leads to the news that's fine. But just because a group of people are gay that doesn't mean they are defined by gay events or gay news. Each community is deeper and richer than that. The stories are important and some stories will be more important than others to each community. But timing is critical.

    -As for the T in trans. Well there is some commonality between the battle gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transsexuals need to fight. But there's nothing wrong with a website being primarily focused on being gay. Or being bisexual. Or being trans. This community is focused on being gay, mostly. Acceptance and understanding is important, sure, but trans issues aren't nor need be a major part of this community. If we make this community be about trans issues and discrimination why not make it about atheist and discrimination against the godless? Trans people are different to gay people, sure they face problems because of the heteronormality of society, but that stems largely from Christianity and religion so why not include atheists in the tent and make it GLBTA? Or at least include polygamists?

    -Also this website because of the nature of the stories here often deals with teen attraction and attraction to teenagers. Attraction that in some cases would violate laws if it were acted on. Sexuality is the core topic of discussion. "Paedophiles", ephebophiles and pederasts should not feel like pariahs here any more than gays attracted to adults. Yet Brody your posts seem to want to include transsexuals while throwing paedophiles under the bus. I'm not saying you need to agree that paedophilia is moral- many here would say it is not moral to act on. But we need to show caring and understanding. This website has stories with sexually active underage teenagers engaging in sex with one another and with adults. It is totally misreading this place to think that we want to be part of a "gay community" that accepts transsexuals and ostracises those attracted to teenagers of the same sex. I'd rather accept both- even if in the latter case the discussion is somewhat more morally confusing. Your moral high ground in discussing "paedophiles" is off-putting.

    I don't see what would be so hard about Timmy having a link to pink news or a link to Brody's website. Those interested in discussing all the issues all the time could go there. But this place in the past hasn't just been about the issues. It's also been about being a family. It's been about taking things at one's own pace. We've been our own community. I think letting people know the stories is important. But having friends. Having understanding. Not feeling alone. That matters more. The news is cold comfort. Some abstract "gay community" that exists out there is cold comfort.

    [Updated on: Wed, 02 December 2009 15:38]




    Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
    Master Oogway
    Re: My notes:  [message #59914 is a reply to message #59913] Wed, 02 December 2009 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    saben is currently offline  saben

    On fire!

    Registered: May 2003
    Messages: 1537



    Oh and I don't think this place should be just for gay guys. We've had straight guys in from time to time, sometimes confused and "yet to realise they are gay" but not always. We've also had ladies.

    This isn't a place where labels should apply. It's about helping each other ourselves whatever that means. Labels need not apply. We each find what works best for ourselves.



    Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
    Master Oogway
    Re: My notes:  [message #59915 is a reply to message #59914] Wed, 02 December 2009 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    NW is currently offline  NW

    On fire!
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    Saben wrote:

    > This isn't a place where labels should apply. It's about helping each other ourselves whatever that means. Labels need not apply. We each find what works best for ourselves.

    If this was the kind of site where one could tick / approve / recommend people's posts, I'd do so ten thousand times for that, Saben.



    "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
    Re: Back to the left margin, and summary  [message #59918 is a reply to message #59897] Wed, 02 December 2009 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    timmy

    Has no life at all
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    Registered: February 2003
    Messages: 13739



    I'm finding it hard to understand how a summary can be read as 'rules'.

    I was summarising where we had got to at that point. I don't expect that list to be the outcome! It was a service, no more and no less, to the discussion.

    There are so many routes forward.

    I like the uniqueness NW describes. How can we preserve that and yet add the value of news without overdosing on news? Brody's profession means he is sensitised to news, and it is his lifeblood. I, by contrast, can take it or leave it. I'm researching a news ticker at present which may solve the Want News/Hate News issue, because I do like the idea of relevant gay oriented news arriving here.

    But it may take a while to achieve that or it may be simple.

    I am still standing to one side of this. I see my role here in this discussion as facilitator far more than participant.



    Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
    Re: Back to the left margin, and summary  [message #59921 is a reply to message #59918] Wed, 02 December 2009 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    NW is currently offline  NW

    On fire!
    Location: Worcester, England
    Registered: January 2005
    Messages: 1558



    Oh, I wasn't especially thinking that the summary would be where we eventually ended up - more reminding myself in public that ultimately you make the decisions, guided by the barrage of conflicting advice and views from all of us, and you run the site through the sweat of your brow and miscellaneous income from elsewhere as a service to us all. That's kinda what I meant by "how the site turns out" - I think we've got some useful points of agreement, but how that gets implemented is a beast of a different flavour.

    If you can do a news ticker, that would be fabby! I use InfoRSS (at home, not at work) in Firefox that scrolls selected RSS feed headlines across the status bar at the bottom of the Firefox window ... BBC, Pinknews, IOMFATS: all things I like to be kept updated on!



    "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
    Re: Back to the left margin, and summary  [message #59922 is a reply to message #59921] Wed, 02 December 2009 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
    timmy

    Has no life at all
    Location: UK, in Devon
    Registered: February 2003
    Messages: 13739



    The ticker, if I can find the right one, has to be prominent yet unobtrusive, and page based not browser based, and it has to work in this damned forum software! And on the main site, of course.



    Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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