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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.
The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #59957] Fri, 04 December 2009 07:02 Go to next message
yusime is currently offline  yusime

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Now not only is President Obama a Political Communist but he is also a Fascist. What is left of the Republican party can not hope to survive this type of insanity forever.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/why_obamas_communist_connectio.html

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html

Somehow the Republican base is insisting on worshiping the "New Deal Liberal" Ronald Reagan. They have nothing substantial in common with Ronald Reagan or Barry Goldwater yet they call themselves conservatives.



He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake since for him a spinal cord would suffice. Albert Einstein
Re: The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #59959 is a reply to message #59957] Fri, 04 December 2009 07:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
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But this was always going to happen.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #59968 is a reply to message #59957] Fri, 04 December 2009 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Any supporter of Bush is a hypocrite if they call Obama Fascist.

I wouldn't call Obama Fascist, but I would call him Socialist and Statist.

Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan are some of the more praiseworthy Republicans. Most people of their type can only be found in the Libertarian Party nowadays. Ron Paul is one of the few Republicans with traditional Republican beliefs left. And he's a little nutty with his followers being even more so.

I hope America will start to embrace a multi-party electoral system, soon. Two-party systems are so flawed. Preferential and proportional electoral systems are much stronger.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #59987 is a reply to message #59968] Sat, 05 December 2009 12:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Scott is currently offline  Scott

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Saben wrote:
>
> I hope America will start to embrace a multi-party electoral system, soon. Two-party systems are so flawed. Preferential and proportional electoral systems are much stronger.

I agree with you 100%. Sadly, as long as the two party system is in control, their power will be self-perpetuating. "Gerrymandering" is the mildest of their excesses, where the local party in power gets to draw the boundaries of the voting district to their advantage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering



Cycling is the one sport where a guy can shave his legs, wear spandex and bright colors, and be accepted.
Re: The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #59988 is a reply to message #59968] Sat, 05 December 2009 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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What's a statist, Saben?

From the UK, where we used to have real socialists in 1945 who created our health service, Obama looks to be very far from a socialist. Admittedly our 'labour' government is more right-wing than Obama but it is an awful government that, having promised to do something about it, has been in power since 1997 and we STILL have over a third of our children brought up in poverty. How can a civilised community vote for crooks that break such important promises?

A socialist like me would be unhappy to see the difference between the poorest family's income and the richest more than a factor of a hundred. At present it is much more than a thousand.

I don't see how that can be right in anyone's book. Parties which promise things that would increase that differential surely must be wrong?

And I agree with you that some method of proportional voting would be much better, especially if it led to coalition governments that could not ride roughshod over their opponents. In the UK the form of government we have is not democratic, it's elected dictatorship.

Love,
Anthony

[Updated on: Sat, 05 December 2009 14:24]

Re: The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #59989 is a reply to message #59968] Sat, 05 December 2009 18:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yusime is currently offline  yusime

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The only real problem I have with Reagan and Goldwater was their implicit call to abolish most of the Federal Government and their extreme support of over-funding the military while trying to propose tax cuts with such extreme over-spending thinking that could slow the growth of government. Ron Paul may be more concerned with spending than with social issues but he is not a Libertarian out side of the role of the federal government in people's private lives. He actually sides with the "State's Rights" people who think the Federal Government protecting the individual liberty of citizens is wrong that the states should basically do what they please to the citizens in their states "separate but equal" comes to mind.

In order for the United States to embrace a multi-party system the people would need to amend the Federal Constitution to make governing the federal system easier. Otherwise the people of the US are stuck relying on a coalition government system with opposing ideologies within a single ruling party or compromise within both political party's ideologies. The government was created to work within compromise nothing else except a Constitutional Convention will change that. I highly doubt that there is the political will or popular support to reexamine and recreate the entire Constitution of the United States. The checks and balances in the Federal Government are too powerful to expect laws to be enough to repair the entire system. That is part of the reason no other nation state has copied the US system of governance there is just no good reason to try a complicated system like the United States possesses most would never get anything done.



He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake since for him a spinal cord would suffice. Albert Einstein
Re: The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #60104 is a reply to message #59989] Wed, 09 December 2009 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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I've been away visiting family so not checking this forum.

But I believe in decentralised power. So not just state rights, but the rights of local councils and government.

I am opposed to power and I think that federal power has more potential for abuse than local power. I support the right of individual states, countries and communities to try and come up with their own definition of "equality" and "right". But I think that a libertarian definition is the best definition. However if a politician is going to try and implement a policy I'd prefer it to be over as small a group of people as possible- that way you have a greater chance of agreement and it can be a more grass roots movement.

I think local governments do a better job of representing local communities. I also support succession rights- I think any group of people that wants to take care of themselves should be able to. I just think that there needs to be more "outs" available for people that don't agree with a particular type of governance.



As for having a multi-party system, I don't know the constitution that well but in Australia the reason we moved to preferential voting (numbering all the boxes 1,2,3,4,etc instead of just numbering 1 or putting a tick) is because the minor parties started pulling about 5% of a vote which was a big threat to the governing party. It was in the interests of the governing major party at the time to try and capture the preferences of the minor parties. The only way a minor party can be successful is to scare the major parties into helping them. For the USA that means the Greens need to be scary enough that the Democrats want Greens supporters to vote Green 1 and Democrat 2. It means that the Republicans need to be scared of the Libertarians stealing all their votes. Then slowly each state may move away from "winner takes all" electoral colleges and move away from a single tick for the preferred candidate. Support minor parties- the bigger and scarier they get, the more likely they are to be taken into account by the major parties. It's good that Nader was a spoiler in 2000 and 2004. We need more spoilers.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #60105 is a reply to message #59987] Wed, 09 December 2009 16:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



In Australia an "independent" yet government run authority does the redistribution in accordance with the "Electoral Act" which is a law specifying the kinds of things that a redistribution has to take into account. There is also opportunity for public discussion on redistributions and there is a lot of electoral accountability.

I think that an independent authority running elections transparently in accordance with a clear set of rules is necessary for any democracy. The Australian Electoral Commission in Australia does a great job. I think America needs something similar.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #60107 is a reply to message #59988] Wed, 09 December 2009 16:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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A 'statist' is someone that has faith in government and prefers public organisations to private organisations. They believe in the State, usually a big state and a strong state.

Obama believes that government can adequately solve the world's woes. I don't. I believe that problem solving needs to occur at the individual, community and private level. I believe government causes more problems than it solves, even if the government is well intentioned.

Obama is not massively socialist- but he is moving America more in the direction of socialism. He believes in public health as a solution and doesn't have as much faith in the private model.

As for children growing up in poverty- well relative poverty will always exist. Some will always be poor while some are always wealthier. That's necessary in a productive society. Equal distribution is ineffective distribution. I am more worried about absolute poverty in the world. Children dying of starvation in sub-Saharan Africa. I think trade barriers and subsidies for local goods and corrupt governments hurt such people the most. Free Trade is the best solution for absolute poverty. It brings people from starvation to an industrial stage of development. Sure there is some exploitation and bad things in the transition to a developed nation but look at South Korea. By embracing trade they pushed past the industrial age and are now one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth.

As for relative poverty- well that can still be problematic, but the only government solution is tax and welfare. But all welfare does is create welfare traps and bad incentives- I see it all the time in Australia with unemployment benefits. And all tax does is penalise the productive members of society by stealing their wealth. You may not believe someone deserves all they earn- but they still earnt it and that doesn't merit stealing it or using the gun-backed violence of government to steal it.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #60108 is a reply to message #59989] Wed, 09 December 2009 16:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Oh and I agree that most past Republicans have had a big blindspot when it comes to military spending. I believe in a small and effective defense force, not a military that spends its time fighting overseas wars it doesn't belong to.

I believe in national sovereignty, and state sovereignty and community sovereignty. Each group, no matter who they are, should be able to determine their own rules of conduct.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #60117 is a reply to message #60107] Thu, 10 December 2009 05:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yusime is currently offline  yusime

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Private industry at least in the United States has a bad habit of having their people seek political power in the federal system in order to gain favors from the people they govern. The 3 major times people in powerful industries managed to gain any power over the government (4 if you include the "industry of slavery") private industry has led to the creation of monopolies which threaten the ability of the market to work at all. The second time led to the stock market crash of 1929, the Great Depression, and massive pro-Hitler corporatism movements in a minority of radicals (they actually helped to subsidize the Holocaust). This third time they managed to ruin the entire system of government in the US for the profit of private business and now they are trying to complain about the government they created turning on them. I don't know if the United States is unique in this regard or not I highly doubt it though.

If private industries would accept that they have a legitimate role within a set of reasonable limits, fair treatment of workers, cleaning up any mess they make and admitting what they have done wrong, and staying out of the way of governing for their own interest I would have no real problem letting any private run organization do what they want. It does not look like private industry is going to forsake governmental power for the good of world anytime soon. No matter how terrible government can be at actually governing anything is better than Fascism which is only corporate subsidized power at a national level in it's most benign form. We already know what Fascism does when it becomes corrupted by nationalism.



He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake since for him a spinal cord would suffice. Albert Einstein
Re: The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #60120 is a reply to message #60117] Thu, 10 December 2009 07:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Yeah cronyism isn't capitalism. Small government doesn't have the ability to seek favours. Rent seeking is definitely something I'm against by any business or community group. The government needs to be impartial and uphold law and order while defending against actual (not imagined) outside threats. They are its legitimate roles in my opinion.

The recent GFC was a mix of bad government decisions and bad corporate decisions. Sub-prime lending seemed like a good idea but just meant that there was a new market that people thought they could make a buck out of. But sub-prime lending came about due to government regulation.

The depression as well was a downturn that was made worse by the New Deal. The recovery in the UK and Australia was faster than the US because our countries promoted tax cuts as stimulus rather than spending.

Behind every big business mistake is usually a government mistake. And often behind a lot of government mistakes is business rent seeking. Small government promotes business in an unbiased way through low taxation and low regulation. It is more effective for that reason alone.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: The Radical Right has hit a brand new low.  [message #60130 is a reply to message #60120] Thu, 10 December 2009 16:30 Go to previous message
yusime is currently offline  yusime

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I think the idea of marketing the market is a bad idea no matter who is promoting it. It is simply manipulation of the market at the expense of people. The recovery in the New Deal era first had to wipe out any remaining thoughts about market infallibility and massive public and private debt which was the underlying problem with the Great Depression. The Roaring 20's was a time of excessive consumerism on the part of consumers being told to buy things they didn't really need at extremely insane interest rates using credit or better called a debt based market. Of course recovery in Europe and Australia was faster than in the US. The US had become the economic center of the world due to WWI and the financial market had been pushed to its breaking point by "Market Fundamentalism" a sort of market based religion where markets are infallible and can be manipulated to serve the interest of business. Once you have the ability to believe markets are God-like entities, cannot be influenced by human beings, protecting the interest of the public from abusive ideas and practices becomes not only irrelevant but a sin against an all powerful God (Market).

The United States needed to get away from our period of individualism matters more than cooperation for the public good in order to handle WW2. Without trust in the government and its institutions Fascism would have taken power over the world in the 1940's. In a worst case scenario Hitler would have gained an atomic bomb before the US and possibly destroyed most of humanity along the way. The New Deal and FDR helped to convince the American people that the government was not purely corrupt and could do something. Maybe the New Deal tried to do too much in the way of solving social woes but without WW2 that would not have happened.

Small government may be more transparent and effective, but with national problems comes more and more state control. I can't change human nature away from that model of thinking any more than you can. Over time more centralized power is going to take root within governments. I think its better to have strong governments that are difficult to manage, because of the most basic restrictions of power within government, if someone wants a strong government. Compared with a small government that can't act when necessary, or won't act because of corruption. A government that can't do anything is just as bad as a government that wants to do everything as far as I'm concerned.



He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake since for him a spinal cord would suffice. Albert Einstein
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