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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I have had an email from someone in his late teens. He's attracted to another boy his age in school. But he is sure, somehow, that his hopes and desires and probable gayness are "wrong". He cites society and its treatment of homosexuals as a key piece of evidence for that.
What do you tell him?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hi Timmy! I'd like to answer this question and got my Dad's permission to use his account and I hope you don't mind:)
Hey Dude, My name is Sean Levesque and my Dad is Brody, he's a reporter and pretty cool about things cause he's Gay, so am I and my boyfriend Chip is 2.
Chip's family is Mormon and were really seriously anti-gay. Their church is like "it's a major sin" and you are gonna go to hell and you are an abomination. We live in Bethesda Maryland and there's this huge Moronic Mormon Temple here and lots of people who go to it and they all think that way.
here's the thing eh, you gotta be true to yourself. society is not all f'd up everywhere. If you're still in high school go to a GSA meeting and talk to people
Dude? its normal 2 b gay!!!!;-D
My Dad has a website link its in his profile over there <<<<<<<<<::-) and there's a couple places U can go 2 for info
Chip 7 I like Trevor's Place especially.
not everybody is a dick about gay people and don't come out either until U R sure its cool.
Chip & I took alot of shit but once everybody got 2 know us they realized that we are still us.
check it out
btw Chip is 20 and I am 21 and we have been partners since we were 16 so it can work seriously
peace
Sean
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Society once said black people were inferior. Society was wrong.
Society once said women didn't have enough sense to vote. Society was wrong.
Society once said that all mentally handicapped people should be kept in institutions. Society was wrong.
Society once said that homosexuality was an abomination.
YOu finish the paragraph.
Max
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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What IS wrong is to judge a person based on ones own personal beliefs.
How can it be wrong for one person to love another person, regardless of gender?
Gender should play no role when it comes to love, just as race should not.
I prefer guys that don't come in a box.
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Well said, Macky!
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I think the guy you're speaking to needs to realise that there isn't just one "society" in the world, but many "societies". And each one has a different set of morals and values.
The people around him might think it's wrong, but that isn't universal. Even the term "homosexual" doesn't have a universal meaning. In other times and other cultures homosexuality has been accepted, but femininity has been derided. In yet other cultures feminine men have been seen as the alternate sexuality, but been embraced as acceptable.
Social wrongness, normality and even where or not an idea exists are all culturally determined.
A real sense of right and wrong needs to come from within.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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The boy needs to turn the statement into positive affirmations:
Being homosexual is OK.
Being homosexual is what I want to be.
Being homosexual is being who I really am.
It's old cognitive therapy, but it works.
Raymundo
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It depends on the kid, of course.
A bright kid interested in society and the way it works will probably find a way in through looking at the different kinds of marriages in different societies, and seeing the different takes on marriage as a device for preserving capital versus marriage as an expression of romantic love etc - in short, the that views a society holds about relationships and their "rightness" or "wrongness" are related to the structure of the society rather than being moral absolutes.
An emotional kid will probably find it easiest to find a way in through comparison with the treatment other "historically excluded groups" have received - on grounds of skin colour, hair colour, ethnicity, religion etc. Society is often wrong in its treatment of groups defined as "other".
Some kids seem to see accepting that they are partly, largely, or wholly gay as a rejection of their previous self-identity - so the way in is through understanding the different things and values that make up a person - honesty, loyalty, pride in one's family and community, sporting or intellectual prowess, whatever. It difficult to help someone see that being gay is fundamental to who you are ... but is not in conflict with and does not threaten these other fundamental things about who you are.
And, of course, plenty of other approaches for other different kids. It depends on the person, I think. But building self-esteem and confidence to hold one's own views is a major part of adolescence, and that's probably even more true about a person's sexual self-identity than it is about most other areas of life.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Timmy, I agree with almost everything I read here but there is one additional thing to say and that is when I consider what to say to the person who says they wish they were not gay.
I used to think that and stopped when I came to the conclusion that I would be wishing not to be me any more. I can't wish that -or at least it is the equivalent of wishing myself dead and that would be a stupid thing to do when one realises how much delight there is to experience.
And your young correspondent will realise that he HAS to accept himself and that he cannot change and then sort out how to deal with the problems of how to find a way of fitting with family and the rest of society. And it can be from total hiding in the closet to total outness. And for the record I never told my parents but I scarcely hid it from any of my friends - and until I was 34 all homosexual acts were illegal.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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He has not said he wishes he were not gay. To be fair he is not sure if he is gay or not. What he knows is that he adores another boy, that is all. And he also thinks, at present, that homosexuality is wrong.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Wrong? There us nothing wrong with being human: gay, straight or otherwise.
Not too many decades ago the Christians taught that slavery was acceptable and that the Bible said the black man was less than human. We don't believe that kind of irrational thinking today any more than we believe being gay is wrong or inhuman.
I can't say what this young man's perspective is on the boy he feels so strongly about. We all went through a phase, an emotional crush on the handsome lad in the next seat. Admiring someone for their beauty, talent or ability is normal behavior for anyone, it isn't even considered gay.
If the attraction is of a homosexual nature then it takes two to tango as they say, this young man may be disappointed when his feelings are not returned in kind. The hardest part about feelings of this nature are sharing them with the object of his desire. I wish him well, as I am sure we all do.
Homosexual is a particular feeling about what one likes to do in the bedroom, and is only a small part of our lives. The gay man on the street interacts with other people and in polite society doesn't discuss bedroom antics. Let's all be human first where kindness and civility allow us to survive, gay is not a color, it's rarely apparent in others.
[Updated on: Thu, 01 April 2010 15:21]
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Ask him if his adoration for another boy itself feels wrong.
I know what it's like to feel same-sex attraction and feel that homosexuality is wrong.
In the end I made my "decision" based on the stronger feeling. I came to realise that believing my gayness was "right" felt good and made me happier than believing it was wrong.
Ask him if he wants to live for other people and their beliefs or live for himself and to make himself happy. If he adores another boy, then allowing himself to relish those feelings will make him happy.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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He has expressed the feeling that homosexuality and thus his adoration for the object of his hopes and desires is wrong.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Yes, but there must be some good feelings in the adoration. Otherwise it would be easy to discount them.
My advice is to weigh up whether the good or the bad feelings are stronger. Following one's stronger emotions usually leads to peace.
That may mean he decides the adoration is just a phase and his conviction that homosexuality is wrong is the right one. But I'd wager that he'll find, like I did, that social expectations are less important than his own attraction.
But regardless, if he listens to his heart he'll find what answer is right for him. Like I did for me.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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There are arguments against your thesis. An example would be that there is huge and sudden pleasure in taking heroin, but taking heroin is wrong.
He has never said he does not enjoy the feelings, though they are causing him emotional and intellectual challenges. What he has said is that he feels it is wrong.
With regard to the idea of a phase I have the following link for you and him: http://vote.sparklit.com/poll.spark/1107722 In theory, though I have no way of checking, this has only been answered by heterosexual males.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I don't believe taking heroin is wrong.
I believe it's amoral. It is risky. It is potentially dangerous. But it is victimless, so it's not immoral.
I also think that conscience comes from emotions. If something feels "right" then it is "right", for the individual experiencing those emotions.
He needs to weigh up if the rightness of his attraction outweighs the wrongness he's been taught.
I prayed so hard when I was 16 for "the answer". After praying I just felt a deep warm feeling, telling me that it was okay for me to be gay. I figured it was as close an answer as God was gonna give me.
But if emotion isn't a good enough reason, then there needs to be a logical objection. And that's going to be an even harder sell. There's no good reason for thinking homosexuality is wrong.
I understand the struggle, though, which is my advice centres around how I overcame the struggle. Another question: Is it his first and only crush, or is it attraction to guys generally?
The 14 year old I was talking to some time ago decided that he probably isn't gay, or even bi, and that he just overextended his feelings of friendship towards me into a crush- especially since I was a gay role model.
But that's his experience.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Taking heroin is wrong. The victim is the taker. It robs him eventually of his ability to function as an effective human being.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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My definition of morality is such that imposition on another's autonomy is the only thing that really constitutes "wrong".
By that definition no action one takes where the only victim is oneself can be wrong.
Also laws prohibiting heroin could potentially be considered morally wrong as they restrict the choice of individuals. Though similarly drug dealers selling the stuff could be considered morally wrong as the drug they are pedalling has consequences for an individual's autonomy.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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I cannot argue against a personal morality which is based on one's own definitions.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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If you were alone in the world, Saben, then perhaps taking heroin and doing yourself deliberate harm might be morally neutral, but while there are people around who care for you and people who will try to help if you OD and ... ... then I think it does do harm to other people too.
And so I think it is inconsistent of you to say that it's not wrong.
Love,
Anthony
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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So being gay is wrong because it upsets the other people around me?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Isn't that exactly the point, though?
All morality is based on one's own definitions, which is why being gay can never be said to be objectively wrong.
I'll continue the rest of the discussion about morality in a new topic, though.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I shouldn't have given you all the chance to digress and devalue this thread. It started out well. We actually said something to someone that we don't know. But then we diverted into dreck and drivel. I say "we", but I don't mean "we" at all.
Luckily my correspondent has enough discernment to discard dreck.
GTFU
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Apologies your highness.
Forums drift from the original topic, especially when said topics are threaded.
If you didn't want to discuss heroin why did you mention it?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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It was an example of something that is, ipso facto, wrong.
It's always a great idea to devalue a thread designed to help someone else. Forums drift off topic, yes, but only an idiot would do this to a thread intended to help someone.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Murder is, ipso facto, wrong.
Heroin use isn't. Why else would there be public debate about drug legalisation in numerous countries?
Next time you pick an example make sure it's not biased by your own cultural prejudices.
You made the topic drift by picking a bad example and making me have to explain myself. The position you were arguing from was indefensible and bad examples don't make it any less so.
The pleasant nature of attraction is hardly comparable to the pleasures of heroin usage anyway.
The fact is, whether logically or emotionally, there is an answer to be found for someone that is conflicted. You just need to cut out the cultural biased you've been conditioned with- something all of us fail to do, as highlighted by this topic.
[Updated on: Fri, 02 April 2010 13:40]
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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What have being gay and taking heroin got to do with one another? If you went on arguing like this, the world would be in a state of paralysis because everything would be on the same moral plane as everything else.
Stop digging.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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The topic is "being homosexual is wrong". I argued against that.
Timmy then said that my argument for why homosexuality is okay could be countered by comparing it to heroin.
But I don't believe heroin use is immoral. So that argument didn't sway me from my original position of homosexuality being okay.
If you think homosexuality is right and heroin is wrong then your argument isn't with me, but with Timmy's premise that the two are comparable.
PS: I'm not trying to imply that Timmy actually believes the arguments he's been putting forth. He's just putting forth counters that could be raised in response to our comments. Possibly counters that the guy he's been speaking to has raised.
[Updated on: Fri, 02 April 2010 13:56]
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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None. No place at all. Give it up. I am seriously considering deleting all the dreck from it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Split the thread then?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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It's quite simple, Shem. This board doesn't allow me to split the thread. I get one simple option. I delete crap or I leave it for all to see. So far I'm undecided. So why not play at being the big man and just leave it alone?
Just so that you are clear, you are not expected to answer in this thread.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I did try to turn the discussion into a new topic. I agree too much has gone on in this topic. Perhaps you should clean up this topic and people can re-iterate their points in the other one if they have an interest in doing so?
My response to Sean, hopefully, explains why I believe my comments have been relevant, though.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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