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I read it, Timmy, perhaps with less than full attention.
Please don't be offended but - I wonder what message you wanted me to take from it, because I just dismissed it as another gang of nutters conning gullible people who have a guilty secret and who are prevented from thinking straight about it by their religion.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Gay people are victimised by these people, bullied by these people
"Another gang of nutters" Actually no. A gang of confidence tricksters preying on those whom society has told they are subhuman.
You may also not realise that Richard Cohen is a quack and charlatan.
Perhaps fuller attention or an interest in homosexual matters would have allowed you to grasp this more fully? This stuff affects us all.
[Updated on: Fri, 23 April 2010 14:03]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I could easily be wrong, but I think, Timmy, that the majority of these people are taken in by their own spiel and believe it. I don't think they are all consciously tricking their victims.
In fact if they were I don't see how their organisation could possibly hold together.
And of course Richard Cohen is wrong - but does he realise it?
Surely the pope is wrong yet I really don't think he could go on doing it (being it?) if he realised it.
Maybe I'm naïve but I don't think most of these religious people are insincere; they are, themselves, seriously misled.
And that doesn't mean, BTW, that I think they should escape blame by that excuse.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Imagine, now, being a teenager, confined by your parents at one of these appalling places, especially being embraced by a man with a prominent erection.
Cohen is a quack, one who claims certification that he does not possess.
These people believe in profit, not prophet.
These are dirty and disgusting people. This is not religion. This is preying on people in a niche market.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I'm getting to the point straight away Anthony... You've lost the bloody plot.
Maybe the rest of the members here will excuse your ignorance as the musing of a harmless old fool & are willing to cut you some slack but I'm not, not this time.
YOU send the youth & others the wrong message with your smug stuffy ignorance. A few months back, in a major daily Brit newspaper, The Guardian, a staff writer ran an expose on a woman, who ran an 'ex-gay' therapy clinic funded by British taxpayers vis a vis your Brit Public Health service. The journalist OUTLINED in specific detail the HARM caused by this so-called reparative therapy.
In 2005, a teenager from the American city of Memphis was FORCED into an Ex-Gay program by his parents and later reported encountering a situation not unlike the scenario Tim describes. He is STILL SUFFERING 5 years later.
There's the article of reference... Anthony? You're so ignorant bordering on dangerous. These nutters as you refer to them pass onerous bits of legislation BASED on their so-called beliefs. Remember Uganda?
The principal moron responsible for that shit was an American Evangelical who also is associated with an Ex-Gay program based on the same crap that Cohen puts out.
BRITISH politicos and Yank politicos of the far right stripe buy into this crap.
There is considerable damage wrought upon individuals psychologically by this nonsense which is why Yank professional and OTHER professional therapists disavow and WARN that this is incredibly harmful.
The MESSAGE from Tim is to BE AWARE! If you don't think that it suits you or you don't understand it Anthony, before you make an arse out of yourself avail yourself of the opportunity to use E-MAIL to communicate privately rather than publicly ending up a fool.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Somewhat blunter than I was saying, but the message will serve.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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jleo71
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Getting started |
Location: USA
Registered: July 2006
Messages: 22
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I think Anthony, that you are correct. You are naive. No one could possibly perform the kind of false ceremonies, that were described in the article, with a straight face. (Pun intended)
I would also like to remind you of the part of the article where the author speaks of the many people who, failing to change with the use of these programs, have committed suicide and ask if you think the people running these programs are not aware of that fact. Doesn't sound like they really care very much what happens to these men as long as they get their $600.
Do you think that the Pope did not know, as cardinal, that he was allowing pedophiles to continue in their pursuits? Of course he knew. He also knew that he had to cover up those actives. And so he did, with full knowledge of the consequences.
I will admit that there are some who actually believe what they are saying but you really need to question motives when there are dollars involved.
Leo
acam wrote:
> I could easily be wrong, but I think, Timmy, that the majority of these people are taken in by their own spiel and believe it. I don't think they are all consciously tricking their victims.
>
> In fact if they were I don't see how their organisation could possibly hold together.
>
> And of course Richard Cohen is wrong - but does he realise it?
>
> Surely the pope is wrong yet I really don't think he could go on doing it (being it?) if he realised it.
>
> Maybe I'm naïve but I don't think most of these religious people are insincere; they are, themselves, seriously misled.
>
> And that doesn't mean, BTW, that I think they should escape blame by that excuse.
>
> Love,
> Anthony
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Naive? I believe Anthony would like to believe that human nature could not be so cruel, but overall we are a dispicable race who time and again have fallen for the oldest con on the planet...religion.
Even if these men who run the converstion therapy feel they are performing God's work they are wrong, blinded by the cult of Jesus.
In all the things I have read over a lifetime I will admit I admire the historical figure of Jesus. It is man who has warped the words, given unnatural meaning to someone who felt himself to be a prophet. Jesus was the original hippie, his message of peace and love has been obscured in religious dogma.
But without a bunch of men who thought to build a cult around this figure I believe Jesus would have passed into obscurity, just another dead Jew killed by the Romans. Instead the Jewish leaders set him up to fail and in doing so created a martyr whose life has changed the planet, and not for good.
I don't believe homosexuality is a choice. Conversion therapy is bad science even if it is good religion. Religion is a business, a for profit company that gives pennies to those in need while banking the dollars. Religion is a greed based entity because only man would be foolish enough to believe in a God that needs money.
I believe fools like Richard Cohen and his converstion buddies are trying to convince themselves that they aren't gay, and we all know misery likes company. Redd Foxx used to say "Pity the fool." I believe what Anthony has done is just that and we can only agree on one thing, they are pitiful fools.
[Updated on: Fri, 23 April 2010 19:05]
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
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Dear Chrisjames147,
I think I agree with you that I am reluctant to believe people are cruel.
I'm completely un-affected by the cult of Jesus. If Jesus was a man then he was lionised excessively.
I agree with you that homosexuality isn't a choice.
Most of the people I meet and interact with are actually kind and generous and (I regret) don't know I am homosexual.
I am a complete atheist. I don't believe there is anything supernatural. There is no god.
And I try to be generous to people with other beliefs (even my fundamentalist friend who says I'm going to hell because I'm a homosexual).
But I do regret that people think I'm naïve, because I just think I'm trying to be nice.
As Timmy says "Play nice".
Love,
Anthony
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Is this snipe-at-Anthony-week?
If so,could we stop it, please? It does nothing for the dignity of the board or its posters and it is embarrassing to us bystanders.
There are robust ways of expressing an argument without getting bitchy or personal.
I am sure it goes against the rules of Netiquette too.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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No Message Body
"... comme recherché qu'un délice callipygian"
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I will agree with what I think you are saying. And what I think you are saying is that there are better ways of educating than confronting someone whose opinions are out of kilter with what one perceives to be the truth.
If that is not what you are saying then it is still what I believe.
I do, however, agree with what Brody has said, though not the manner in which he has said it.
If we old farts do anything for our younger colleagues at all it is to lend them the benefit of our experience and experiences, single and plural, and of our wisdom, such as it may be. There is very little else we can do for them. We, if we were able to, fought the "gay battle" in our era. Theirs is the battle now, though we can still fire a healthy broadside when we wish.
There are some things where clarity of sight is important. One such area is this Ex Gay Crap.
We are not ill, therefore we cannot be cured. We are a normal part of society. We have the right to know we are normal and to feel normal.
On Facebook today I was asked to place the following statement on my wall:
> People need to understand that children with special needs don't have an illness, so there is no cure & it's not contagious. They only want what we all want, to be accepted.
I did, and willingly.
And it refers to all humankind, even those who do not believe that they have special needs.
I have special needs. I am homosexual. People need to understand that homosexual people don't have an illness, so there is no cure & it's not contagious. They only want what we all want, to be accepted.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Benji
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: August 2007
Messages: 297
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I very much agree with you Brody, these snake oil salesman are doing more harm then good. Feeding on societies rejection of gays and offering the cure, for a price of course. The APA reports; 'The potential risks of "reparative therapy" are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient.'
Richard Cohen is not licensed as a therapist, because he said he "didn't want to jump through the hoops and deal with the heterophobia and anti-ex-gay attitudes." Cohen avoids State licensing requirements by asking for donations to his foundations instead of payment. In 2002 Cohen was permanently expelled from the American Counseling Association, after it accused him of six violations of its ethics code, which bars members from actions which "seek to meet their personal needs at the expense of clients, those that exploit the trust and dependency of clients, and for soliciting testimonials or promoting products in a deceptive manner." This guy is no better then Paul Cameron, a disgraced psychologist who was also removed from the APA for falsifying his studies.
Dobson, Cameron, Cohen and many others feed the frenzy being spewed from the pulpits, all have written many books and made plenty of money from the families of gays, and the misery of others.
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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Aside from the author of the article, fools are almost destined to be parted from their money. There must be a moment where a man about to pay $900 for questionable, dangerous therapy asks: what am I doing? How else can I use this $900? It is more than a crime to take away family money and hand it to a greedy charlatan.
Raymundo
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… this is the sort of thing I am referring to:
>I'm getting to the point straight away Anthony... You've lost the bloody plot.
Maybe the rest of the members here will excuse your ignorance as the musing of a harmless old fool & are willing to cut you some slack but I'm not, not this time.
YOU send the youth & others the wrong message with your smug stuffy ignorance.<
Whether the content is true or not, is irrelevant. It is rude, insulting, contains swearing (cussing), condescending (patronizing), shows lack of respect for another human being, and is not suitable for a person with an active intellect, whatever his age, just because he expresses his own views.
Without checking, I think this is one of three ad hominem attacks this week.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Without checking, I have no idea. I am not about to check. I am going on holiday. As ever we have a Mystery Moderator, one who is active at all times anyway.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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When you are desperate because you have been told again and again by the church you genuinely believe in that you are abnormal and will burn in torment in hell for ever, when you are emotionally upset by this, when you have nowhere to turn, then any solution, however tenuous is welcomed.
While it is obvious that these folk are gullible they are not gullible in a bad way, nor are they fools in a classic sense. They have been brainwashed into believing that they are bad. They have been conditions like Pavlov's dogs to look for a solution. And, wonder of wonders, at only $900 along one comes.
Under those circumstances are they not fools if they do not try to grab the elusive straw to save them form their imagined drownings?
I look at myself here. I never wanted to be homosexual. I hated being homosexual. I wished not to be homosexual. Luckily no-one offered me a cure that seemed plausible. If they had I think I would have tried to embrace it.
Remember that society and religion created the SIN of homosexuality. Before that people simply enjoyed each other.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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The people that run the camps- the "guides" sound as much victims of the system as the "journeyers" that attend them.
Like Anthony I'm not sure if one could find any malicious intent, even if one were to go all the way up the chain of command to people like Richard Cohen. Maybe he's only interested in the money, or maybe he truly believes what he preaches.
Yes the camps are harmful. Yes psychologists have said sexual orientation can't be changed. But psychologists once treated homosexuality with electroshock therapy. Gay Christians have a belief that their sexual preference is wrong, changeable. That isn't backed up by current science. But that is their belief. Based on faith and an old book.
Do you think, timmy, that once you embraced a plausible cure you might then try to help others that were struggling and even make a service out of it? The $900 price tag seems steep, but for a 2:1 participant:guide ratio with 3 nights accommodation it may not really be that profitable a business.
I'm not trying to justify the camps at all. We should speak out against them whenever possible. But I think we need to realise that a lot of the leaders of these camps are POTENTIALLY as much victims of society's norms and expectations as those that attend them.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Well, jleo71, I don't see what I've said that people worry about. I haven't even hinted that I approve of these people. All I've said is that I think some of them are sincere and are misled by what they themselves say.
And I also said they shouldn't escape blame.
I think I am actually much more strongly against religion and its promoters and adherents than most people here.
One can be much more effective against an enemy if you understand how he works and what makes him tick.
Love,
Anthony
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Well said, Saben. I think you will find that my post and yours are in complete agreement - so, if I were you I'd put on some body armour lest Brody reads it.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I am not prepared to give these people the benefit of any doubt. These people and people like them have huge and bad influence in the world. They are evil. They cause people like David Bahati to propose death for homosexuals in Uganda. I am not for appeasement nor for excusing their behaviour. They are pure evil.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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> I wonder what message you wanted me to take from it, because I just dismissed it as another gang of nutters conning gullible people who have a guilty secret and who are prevented from thinking straight about it by their religion.
That was your post.
Let me examine it.
gang of nutters: No. a set of ruthless men who have found a niche in the market and are bullying and victimising the people who hoped mistakenly for help. And men who are doing this for a substantial profit.
gullible people: No. These are vulnerable people, made the more vulnerable and desperate by the religion they have been raised in. Religion, especially in a religiously oriented nation like the USA, is hard to get out of. If you don't go to church on a Sunday, possibly to the bible class on a Wednesday you lose your job. And the pulpit tells them each time that HO-MO-SECK-SHUALS are SINNERS.
guilty secret: That is genuinely offensive. I should not need to explain why. Being as you were made cannot ever be a guilty secret. Theirs is not a guilty secret. Theirs, ours, mine, yours, is the fact of being attracted sexually, emotionally and intellectually to other makes. The supposed guilt is created by the preachers and by the society in which they have to live. Have to, not choose to. They work there, and jobs are scarce as hell.
I wanted you to take whatever message you would from it. What was unexpected, and created the stake you have tethered yourself to together with the pile of, yes, faggots that are alight beneath you, is the rather odd post that I have just quoted. You built the fire and lit it.
Yes, Brody was insulting. I've chosen to let that stand because it is plainly insulting. I don't think you or anyone else needs me to remove it in case it offends again in the future. But he, for his part, found your post insulting. I've chosen to let that stand as well. I see it as insulting, too, your post.
Let me explain that.
It says "You must have been stupid to put that here for me to see. I half read it, paid it little attention because I thought I knew what it was about, and chose to make a banal and consciously naïve post to be provocative."
And if that is not what you intended that is nonetheless what I saw.
Two wrongs do not make a right. I think Brody should make peace with you. But that also means that I think you should make peace with Brody. And I think you should look at life through different spectacles. Most of the world still vilifies homosexuals. We need to seek to influence that by our actions, not by laughing at the other poor guy because he's paid a fortune for a cure we know to be impossible.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I have been looking at this subject with some detachment. I remember that we had a teenager on the forum before who was incarcerated in one of these abominable places by his 'well meaning" and totally stupid and reprehensible parents. He was a great boy, good at school, musical, gay as an Easter parade, and scared shitless.
I heard from him just before he was consigned to the brainwashing establishment. He was absolutely terrified. Wisely, he has not been in touch since. I have only hope to go on that he is Ok. I suspect he is now highly damaged.
It takes a lot to recover form brainwashing. Ask any hostage anywhere.
So no, these are not nutters. This is abuse on a grand scale.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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My life is spent primarily surrounded by straight persons as I do not live in a Gay enclave nor do I live La Vida Loca.
I am a journalist, a parent, a friend, and oh yes, openly Gay although I do not run around with a massive neon sign flashing over my head that says: "Look Here-He's a Penis Lover!"
I cover the mainstream news as a political reporter on issues that affect all groups of human beings, not just the more fabulous & well dressed ones....
Here's why I am not going to apologise for being blunt: I have had the awful experience of a young man, who is close to me via a relative, relate in excruciating detail the harm caused by one of these reparative therapy places and now at age 21 he is still recovering.
Anthony's insulting dismissal of the article as not worthy of his attention inflamed my sense of right & wrong based on personal experience as outlined above.
Consider this as well, there are Gay kids that visit here, never sign-up, just lurk, who are paying attention to what is said in this forum.
When someone pontificates like Anthony, it creates harm, because they are seeking answers, often in stealth, hiding from family, friends, school authorities. They don't need to hear that well, the reparative therapy clinics are staffed by nutters.
I truly understand that there are those of you who dislike not only my approach, but my profession. You'd be wise to consider that you're being selfish if you dismiss crucial, critical, and worthy information that I or Tim, or any one else here brings to the table simply because of that/those factors.
My son, made an interesting observation a couple weeks back, why comment if it doesn't pertain to you or directly affect you?
I'd agree with that. Tim has always asked that we view things from other perspectives, especially from those that may NOT be present such as the aforementioned lurking kids.
You may NOT like my approach or me....given. Here's another factor, I am proactive because I understand only too well the harm of being ignorant or worse silent on issues like this can have.
I have written countless articles on LGBT affairs over the past year. Today in fact marks the one year anniversary of my entry into the blogosphere concentrating on LGBT matters.
Once again, If you don't like me, fine. But for God's sake, go research, read, get informed before you blather on about a subject that you only have cursory knowledge of.
Here:
The Bilerico Project
AmericaBlog
Pam's Houseblend
The Advocate
The Pinknews UK
HRC
Stonewall UK
Joe.My.God
Towleroad
Box Turtle Bulletin
Trevor Project
READ..........RESEARCH>>>>> There are youths that visit here that need help, reassurance, direction......
I am too blunt? Nah, not really. I mean after-all, I know exactly what it feels like to be treated as a second class citizen and as a zoological mental disorder by society. Can the rest of you identify with that?
Am I going to apologise? No.
Maybe there are those of you who need to apologise and NOT to me, but to the scared kids that come here seeking help and get driven off by the attitude of the 'members' who prefer to play mushroom. you know, stay in a dark place and feed each other bullshit.
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jleo71
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Getting started |
Location: USA
Registered: July 2006
Messages: 22
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I like you, Brody. I like that you speak your mind even if it means being blunt or hurting one persons feeling when that person does not give a thought to what they are putting out there. Incidentally, the article in question was sent by me to Tim. And I an very glad he posted it to this board and sent me the link to it. This is why I felt obliged to answer Anthony and I will not apologize either as I said exactly what I felt. So thank you Tim for posting it and to all that have made this such an interesting topic of conversation.
Leo
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Anthony's initial post of "why should I care?" was pretty insensitive, I agree. It probably would have been better for him to refrain from posting.
But to say people are only allowed to post on things that pertain to them is silly. If you were only able to talk on matters directly related to yourself, Brody, you'd be out of a job.
As for the lurking kids, Anthony may not speak for them, Brody, but neither do you. You're an out of touch old dude, too. Even if you read stories about young gay people and have a gay son you're still not a gay teen yourself.
I'm 25, so I'm getting on myself. But as I said to Sean- different teens have different needs. Some may respond more to your posts, some may respond more to Anthony's. Everyone's different. There are plenty of gay teens that want to just be gay, not to be queer and have queer politics shoved at them. There are plenty that do want to be involved with gay issues beyond their own life.
Anthony may be out of touch sometimes. But I don't think anyone has the right to speak on behalf on anyone else. Your voice is your own and that's where its authority ends.
I was a lurking gay kid 9 years ago. But even I don't try and speak on behalf of those around today.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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No-one speaks for those who read but never post. Not you, not me, not Brody, no-one. Not even a contemporary of theirs speaks for them
We speak to them.
As I have said more times than I can remember, this forum is created by those who post for the benefit of those who read. And that includes the vast population of those who read but never post.
So our responsibility is not to refrain from posting on topics, but to refrain from being total wankers when we post.
Your statement "There are plenty of gay teens that want to just be gay, not to be queer and have queer politics shoved at them. There are plenty that do want to be involved with gay issues beyond their own life." is awkward. This is not about politics. This is about big profits being made from brainwashing adults and kids. This is part of our lives, like it or not.
This is not the same as noting that Dan Choi has chained himself to a railing. This is personal. That is politics. Good politics, but politics nonetheless.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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... however ill-advised Anthony's comments may have been; I, too, found the article to be burdensome and after three pages began to tune out; I persevered because the topic is important, and worthy of our attention, and our scorn.
Kindly have some compassion for an aging man, with perhaps tired eyes, who also felt the article to be exceptionally long-winded, and long in coming to the point.
Warren C. E. Austin
The Gay Deceiver
Toronto, Canada
"... comme recherché qu'un délice callipygian"
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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You know, Warren, I think you are wrong. Age is not of itself of any merit, nor is experience. Everyone here is here in an equal capacity. We post thoughts and opinions and by those posts do you know us.
We have a different duty, one which we do not always get right. While it is easy to tell someone his words are wise and any words will serve to do that, telling someone his words are foolish or unwise is far harder to do well.
As for the article it would have been hard for it to be any shorter. It was a chronology. But thank you for persevering.
[Updated on: Sat, 24 April 2010 19:25]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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... and I would think that after nearly 10-years you would know me well enough to understand that I hold no truck with the likes of their ilk and would have soldiered on regardless.
Go, and enjoy your holiday (to Japan, isn't it?), and know that we'll all be here awaiting your return with bell's on.
Warren C. E. Austin
The Gay Deceiver
Toronto, Canada
[Updated on: Sat, 24 April 2010 20:39]
"... comme recherché qu'un délice callipygian"
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Your attitude to the item was never in doubt. These people are just another Fred Phelps.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Re: Ex Gay conversion 
Re: Ex Gay conversion 