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Stepford queers  [message #62593] Fri, 04 June 2010 01:34 Go to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Per Warren's suggestion I'm opening this topic up for discussion.

I'm of the opinion that being gay shouldn't mean having to assimilate to social norms. The fight for gay marriage is important, but the DESIRE for gay marriage is questionable. Marriage is a social straight-jacket. Monogamy is mostly socially conditioned.

So why should we even want these things? Why do we want to be dad, dad and 2.5 adopted kids? All that means is that the straights have won by making us conform and making us assimilate. They are still setting the standards of what is "normal" and what is "okay".



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Stepford queers  [message #62596 is a reply to message #62593] Fri, 04 June 2010 03:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CallMePaul is currently offline  CallMePaul

Really getting into it
Location: U.S.A.
Registered: April 2007
Messages: 907



There is a great deal to be said for monogamy, Saben. It's the only safe relationship to enjoy sex without use of a condom. Then, when you are no longer physically desirable, you don't have to worry about ending up a lonely old queen with just a cat to keep you company. Plus,two people sharing their lives together have double the income and half the expenses. And I'm sure others could add extensively to this list.

You say the desire for gay marriage is questionable. I suppose it is in some people - straights as well as gays. But I think the desire for a mate is built in - hard wired if you will. I would propose that it's the rare individual that doesn't want that family relationship (2.5 adopted kids included). This could be an interesting topic. What do the rest of you think about this?



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Re: Stepford queers  [message #62597 is a reply to message #62596] Fri, 04 June 2010 03:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



I'm not so much talking about whether monogamy is good for people or not as whether people should feel that they need to engage in monogamy in order to have a "proper" relationship or to be socially acceptable.

There are advantages to monogamy, to open relationships and to casual fucks. I guess my question is more "why do some gay guys seem to only hold monogamy as valid, isn't that just assimilating?"



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Stepford queers  [message #62599 is a reply to message #62593] Fri, 04 June 2010 05:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



I have long maintained that "our" quest for gay marriage has harmed the movement for gay equality. However, I think that is a separate issue from your question.

I think gay folk should have the right to a personal marriage contract of desired. This is similar to heterosexual folk;s right not to have one!

All I know is that I wanted, when I was 13, to marry and be faithful to the object of my unrequited love. I have no idea if that was some sort of assimilation of societal norms or not. I was just a kid. WHat ordinary 13 year old boy wants to get married?



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Stepford queers  [message #62600 is a reply to message #62599] Fri, 04 June 2010 05:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



"What ordinary 13 year old boy wants to get married?"

Probably most, just not as 13 year old boys.

I wanted to marry (a girl) when I was 13. I just didn't want to do anything sexual with them.

What about stuff other than marriage, though? Should gay people need to try and make themselves seem patriotic (since that inspired my original post) or make themselves seem like good hard-working members of society? Do we need to mind our ps and qs like a straight person or more so because we're already outside the box? Is any of that relevant? Does being a flaming homo make us less accepted and if so, should we stop being so flaming?

[Updated on: Fri, 04 June 2010 05:41]




Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Stepford queers  [message #62601 is a reply to message #62593] Fri, 04 June 2010 08:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Well, Saben, for me and (I think) for many others it seems natural to have a single partner.

I don't think I'm at all typical, though, because I didn't have sex until I was 19. There was no question of a public partnership while homosexuality was against the law but when I fell in love I wanted no-one else. When I was rejected I did what anyone does 'on the rebound' but I think I always wanted a single partner.

And, of course, I did do what you think doesn't suit gay men, which is assimilate. And so did several others on this forum. And it is my impression that none of us regrets it.

I agree that gay people shouldn't have to do that but I also think they shouldn't be despised by those that don't.

And, looking into myself, I think it is entirely possible to have deep and close relationships with more than one person at a time. And communal living hasn't really ever had a fair trial.

I wonder am I boasting or asking for commiseration when I say I've been faithful for fifty years?
Love,
Anthony

[Updated on: Fri, 04 June 2010 19:24]

Re: Stepford queers  [message #62602 is a reply to message #62600] Fri, 04 June 2010 08:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Not, patriotic, Saben! How can patriotism be a virtue? But surely (since 'good' *means* or implies 'commendable') we must all want to be good.

I think it's natural to want to work at things. Children have to learn What we call skiving, here, to dodge tasks - the avoidance of work. It was the big thing that national service did wrong.

Being flaming should be accepted and I think if that's your bag, go for it.

But society has some way to go before we are safe. When I wear red tights in the Wihteladies road I get wolf whistles from builders driving by in trucks and I feel safe, but an acquaintance whose date kissed him last week in a pub in Bridgewater got beaten up by the bouncers on the door saying we're having none of that in here.
Love,
Anthony
Re: Stepford queers  [message #62604 is a reply to message #62601] Fri, 04 June 2010 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1558



I think that Anthony has it exactly right when he says "I agree that gay people shouldn't have to do that but I also think they shouldn't be despised by those that don't."

In many ways it almost exactly mirrors the big debate a decade or so in the feminist movement .... if people are to be free to be themselves, that freedom must include those who, for whatever reason, feel that their real selves are utterly conventional.

In practice, I think most of us are a mix. I know that I am! Having tried a variety of non-exclusive relationships in my late teens and early twenties, with both sexes, it became clear to me that I work best in a single relationship, and that sex (although desirable) is not a necessary component of that relationship (though cuddles and physical affection are!). I dislike the gay scene, although I've been fully out in all situations for over 30 years, and am moderately activst (demo's, Pride and suchlike).

Saben said "They are still setting the standards of what is "normal" and what is "okay".". This, for me, is the key: we have to break the link between "normal" (ie what most people do/are) and "okay" (ie what is socially acceptable). For me, this is the real point of the drive towards not only accepting, but positively embracing and rejoicing in "diversity".

As far as I'm concerned, enjoying meeting people, who are different from me in terms of age, ethnic/cultural background, disability, sexuality, political outlook, gender, or whatever is a real plus - and does sometimes result in real friendships because the things we have in common outweigh any of these differences.

For all of us, the challenge is, I think, to work out what we actually are, and to be it with conviction, rather than letting it be any kind of barrier.

"Whatsoever they hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might".



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Stepford queers  [message #62609 is a reply to message #62600] Sat, 05 June 2010 07:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



If we wish to fight for our country, then we should be allowed. If we wish to flame, then flame away, bearing in mind the decorum required for any given social situation. We are as hard working and as idle, as law abiding and as criminal (etc) as other people.

Difference is to be celebrated, not despised.

Regarding 13 year old boys, I think most just want to get laid, you know, not married.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Please Saben, and all of the Membership here ...  [message #62613 is a reply to message #62593] Sat, 05 June 2010 19:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Gay Deceiver is currently offline  The Gay Deceiver

Really getting into it
Location: Canada
Registered: December 2003
Messages: 869




... let's return to the thoughts you had originally expressed, these being the basis for my having asked you to create the thread, shall we?

Saben, you said, and I quote:

"Who wants to be a stepford fag? We shouldn't need to assimilate just to have our human dignity respected. People need to embrace diversity - not force conformity!"

I cannot, and could never, ever, disagree with that position.

To me it's a tenet, a foundation if you will, and the backbone behind what should be everyone's right to live their lives in the milieu of dignity and fairness. No one should ever be denied a suitable roof over their head; or suffer through an inability to access good and sufficient health services and education; that all be treated equally without regard to religion, politics, race, age, gender, sexuality or creed must be paramount in our pursuit of that dignity and fairness.

I have lived my entire life according to the above principle; my adopting it occurred a decade or more before "Diversity" became the darling of the politically correct set, and in their doing so it became the Law of the Land.

Mine was a learned behaviour, arising as it did out the mouth of the most bigoted of sum'bitches that ever walked the face of the earth ... my father; a man who could never abide neither non-conformity, nor nonacceptance of so called normalcy; but, a man who knew his attitudes were wrong and they needed change, and whilst they were a change he knew couldn't and never would make, he would change those self-same attitudes in his two sons even if he had to beat them into us in the process.

His was not a decision made from economic or political necessity; but, a decision made simply because he knew it to be right; to be fair to all; to be dignified; to be be just.

My father was a difficult man to know; his was a cloistered mind, sheltered and secluded; didactic and demanding; and above all else I would come to learn and understand, generally right. Twenty-five years after his death, I feel I'm only just now beginning to lift the veil covering the face of the man I knew, and finally catching the merest of glimpses of the man he really and truly was. A visionary, perhaps; a tormented and closeted homosexual, very likely (although given the acceptance and support of my grandfather (his own father) of my nascent and developing homosexuality from the earliest age, I simply do not understand either the degree of his torment, or its' necessity; a fair and compassionate man, without any doubt in my mind today, even if there had once been.

I have often-times said I came out of the closet in "Fire-engine Red" diapers; truer words I have never spoken. I have lived my entire life knowing, and accepting just that which I was, and what I was to become; so too, did my parent's, this not-with-standing my father's own bitter and violent reaction to my first declaring my homosexuality to them as a teenager in the family home, and to the entire family, including extended cousins, uncles, aunts and what not. They knew. All of them did. They didn't need me to articulate that for them. It simply was what I was ... who I was ... who I was going to be. I was never, ever, going to be anything other that just what I was; and everyone knew this.

That my father loved my mother has never been in question; nor, has her love for him; but, because of my father's alcoholism, it took them three divorces and four marriages (all of them to each other, and never to anyone else, all of them occurring within the space of a dozen-years) and my father's final acceptance of his illness to make it right. The paradigm worked for them; just as surely it would have never worked for me; both understood this.

My parents both served in the Second War, he in the Air Force, she in the Army, a circumstance necessary as back in the day married couple who served at one and the same time together could not do so in the same branch of the military; this service taking the greater toll on my father; something he would never discuss, with anyone, ever; and it would not be until last year that I finally got the strength to open his "Flight Log", a handwritten "annotated and verified" account of all his service behaviour, and carefully preserved all these years, to finally understand just what that toll had truly been; and how it had, just perhaps, come to shape the mind and actions of the man I would become simply because he had decided he would in the words of Patrick Stewart, "Make it so."

Through experience in the work-place, something I'll not touch on here, I've learned one thing if nothing else, with that being we cannot ever Legislate tolerance and understanding. This has to be undertaken through education, and that education must begin in the home, and in the hands of the parents of their children, who in their turn will become the next generation of parents, and on down through the cycle of life. Schools and the educational system can only do so much, and what little they can do, can be undone in the home if the home environment is not conducive to change. Yes, the "carrot and the big stick" approach of Legislative remedial support helps; but, this should be only applied to provide direction and never punitively.

To my father, and many father's just like him wherever they may have left their mark, I and countless others just as myself, I and we should give everlasting thanks for their support and their guidance and wise counsel.

"Diversity" should never have had to become a "Cause"; it should always have been a "Given"; and until the World community learns this, dignity and fairness, and justice will never be a possibility for any of us, regardless, of just what our religion, our politics, our race, our age, our gender, our sexuality or our creed may be; and one should never, ever, have to pretend to be something they are not ... to assimilate if you will ... in order to survive theirs, or ours, or anyone's World.

Warren C. E Austin
The Gay Deceiver
Toronto, Canada

[Updated on: Sun, 06 June 2010 02:57]




"... comme recherché qu'un délice callipygian"
Re: Please Saben, and all of the Membership here ...  [message #62615 is a reply to message #62613] Sat, 05 June 2010 21:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Yes, Warren, I can relate to all that.

There are some social battles that a single man may not feel able to take on alone and that it would take too much effort to build a group powerful enough to take on. When I was in my teens and twenties the law would punish anyone the police could entrap.

I may have been a moral coward but didn't feel I could fight that. Nor could I bear to take on the prejudices of my parents so I never dared to tell them.

But where I was assured of a tolerant reception I was quite happy to be open and few of my close friends since I left school have not known about me - but, of course, I was in no danger that any of them would 'shop' me to the police. Even then, amongst educated people, tolerance was widespread.

As the views of much of society have changed it has become much easier for homosexual people to acknowledge who they are. The trouble is that the spread of tolerance in society has not been even and, particularly among the religions of the book there are such obstacles to change that intolerance is far from uncommon.

My MP is a gay man. In the UK where most people are fairly agnostic, at least about fundamentalism, he can get elected with a thumping majority of over 11,000. Could that be possible in all of the USA? Canada I couold believe but in the USA I think too many people go to church and listen to what is preached.

And until tolerance can be safely assumed how can a cautious person dare to be open? You may live in an enclave of tolerance and then be sent to work in Uganda! There is no protection that will stop a fervent bible-thumper being appointed as your boss! The safe seam you are sowing could suddenly break through - and it could give rise to great danger.

I am very lucky to have been able to live without finding it unbearable that my sexuality is unknown to most of the people I have worked with and for.

Maybe I should have been braver - but I doubt whether all the bravery in the world will convert those Christians, Jews and Muslims who are convinced their religion condemns homosexuality. Waiting for people of those views to die out and be replaced with more tolerant people will take a long, long time.

I'd like to see Roman Catholic Priests be of either sex and be allowed to marry, either sex but I don't think the pope is ready for it. I won't bet on it happening in my grandchildrens' lifetimes.

How can God change his mind, once he has written it down in a book?
Love,
Anthony
Re: Please Saben, and all of the Membership here ...  [message #62616 is a reply to message #62615] Sun, 06 June 2010 04:28 Go to previous message
ray2x is currently offline  ray2x

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Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429



Moral courage was not even on my radar. I was not aware of being gay for a long long time. Unlike Cabin Boy who celebrates every kiss, I was just looking forward to another day at school or work, even as I was kissing my boyfriends. I literally had no notions of my gay being. Blind, dumb, maybe like my students who knew more than I did. They probably even sensed that I was gay, as did some of my collegues, a couple of relatives, and a great many gay men. Why no notion of being gay? Who knows. Just dumb and dumber on my part. I did feel more ease around guys and reveled in their company. But to me that was natural. I had boyfriends for about 12 years. We parted. Then came celebacy. Now, I know more about myself as a gay man. Married gay man with a daughter.



Raymundo
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