I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love. Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving! We have had to make new membership moderated to combat the huge number of spammers who register
Location: U.S.
Registered: November 2009
Messages: 630
Okay, this Manning character is probably going to get his ass busted for leaking classified government documents, but that isn't my point.
The man was "livid" after a being "lectured by an ex-boyfriend." Now in America that would imply a a gay relationship. I want the English take on that comment since he has a foot in two cultures and I can never be sure if boyfriend is an innocent way of expressing his male companions.
Of course, the idiot is in deep trouble already, but if they discover him to be gay I don't want to see that feed the homophobia in the military. Your comments welcomed.
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
Location: U.S.
Registered: November 2009
Messages: 630
None of this bodes well as the issue unfolds over the next few weeks. I just hate to think of what the gay bashers out there will make of this, time will tell.
[Updated on: Sat, 31 July 2010 20:58]
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
Location: US/Canada
Registered: September 2009
Messages: 733
BETHESDA, MARYLAND-JULY 31 | The real issues are a.) Did the leak of the 90,000 plus pages of classified materials compromise U.S. Defence Department military operations in Afghanistan, and b.) Did the leak of these materials or does the leak of these materials put servicemen & servicewomen's lives at risk?
Whether or not Manning is Transgendered, Bi-sexual, or Gay is completely irrelevant and has no place in serious discussions or the investigations into this matter. Additionally, the Gawker blog/website is hardly a source of credible journalistic endeavors.
This incident while serious and meriting closer scrutiny by the press corps as well as competent authorities does not rate on a scale of similarity to say the release of the Pentagon papers over 4 decades ago by The New York Times & The Washington Post during the Nixon administration.
There is also the problem of fundamentally flawed U. S. policy in the region which led up to the most recent incident whereby the Commander of U. S. & Allied Ground & Air Forces was relieved of his command for his open critique of said policy and the conduct of the war efforts by this administration that was published in Rolling Stone magazine earlier this month.
Manning's theft of classified materials & its subsequent release to the media by Wikileaks is problematic at best, questionable at the least.
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
These are classified and sercetive documents only because Bush and Cheney wanted them so,in my humble opinion. I paid for these wars, so I have a right to read any documents pertaining to them. I did read four documents and was thoroughly bored. But perhaps in a total, these documents could depict a war not totally flattering to the past administration.
Wikileaks has my support, 100%. How else are we to hold the behemoths that are modern governments accountable? Elections let us shift the parameters of debate once every 3-4 years in a meaningful way. The rest of the time we rely on forms of media and opinion pieces and polls to inch government in particular directions. The more information we have, the better. If the US government didn't want to put the lives of Afghani civilians or US servicemen at risk then there's a simple solution that starts with GT and ends in FO.
If the "peace" and "stability" America is bringing to Afghanistan justifies civilian and military casualties then the accountability this leak provides also justifies any potential backlash.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
Now imagine if a leak endangered someone you love. How full would your support be then?
What if a leak there ensured that they came back from a conflict maimed? How full would your support be then?
Considering that a war is unlawful or undesirable is a matter of politics. You, as a previous political candidate, know that perhaps better than anyone here. Breaking national security is a matter of legality. This kid's act isn't heroic. It's reckless, illegal, and strange.
I try not to differentiate between strangers and people I love. I try to hold all lives of equal value.
If I led a country I would never send people to die in a war that wasn't justified. But if a cause is justified then I'd be willing to die for it, I'd be willing to have my loved ones die for it and I'd be willing to have others die for it.
I think government transparency is a cause worth dying for. A far more important cause than "spreading democracy". A democratic government means shit if it isn't transparent.
As for his actions being illegal? So what. All that means is he should have been more careful not to get caught. Laws are arbitrary and decided upon the whims of politicians and public servants. Following the law does not make you a good person or a moral person, it just makes you a risk averse person.
I applaud people that are stupid enough to risk their own safety by going against laws they disagree with. I applaud the gay men that continued to have sex when it was illegal and I applaud people that leak in the interests of transparency.
Illegal or not, risky or not I believe his actions were right.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
But, Timmy, 'illegal' doesn't mean 'wrong'! There are unjust laws that ought to be broken.
Whistle-blowers are not automatically wrong. People that reveal things the government wants to be kept secret may be helping to prevent the government from continuing to do wrong.
And the freedom of information act, while wonderful and helpful, still does not go far enough because we know that the government does things that we know are immoral and maybe even illegal.
One should not unthinkingly support all law and comdemn all law-breaking - at least not until the last unjust law has been repealed.
And, of course it is immoral to serve in the armed services because you implicitly agree to obey orders even if they are immoral. I know: I was in the Royal Navy!
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
Use the ballot box. Use lobbying. Use protests. But simply ignoring laws because you don't like them is not valid. They were created under authority delegated by you or your ancestors to those you and they elected. Make them work for you. We are governed by consensus.
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
Were I your local party considering your future candidature I would deem you to be too great a risk and not re-engage you as a candidate, just for that opinion.
I suppose it is your considered opinion, but I can;t quite see which of your political parties it's congruent with.
I work with a political party to try and change the laws I deem invalid, but until that time I applaud those with the courage to stand up against such laws.
How would the civil rights movement have gone if Rosa Parks didn't engage in civil disobedience?
How could we have protested for legalisation of "sodomy" if no-one was engaging in it?
My party has never been elected and has about as much chance of doing so as the Monster Raving Loony Party (despite having a rational, philosophically sound platform we have yet to obtain any of the kind of leverage we need in the media or mainstream).
Once my party has a chance of electing candidates I won't be one of them. I stand for election because the more names on ballots the greater awareness that is raised.
But overall I support agorism and civil disobedience over attempting to fight the Leviathan by throwing a piece of paper at it every 4 years.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Location: U.S.
Registered: November 2009
Messages: 630
I suppose there are a lot of things I don't like about the current war situation, I felt the same way about Vietnam. But this Manning character was in uniform and as such swore his allegance. The fact that he was working in the intelligence section only proves to me that there is little intelligence to be found in those who chose him for such a position.
I also suppose his acts could be considered treasonous, especially if they expose one single soldier to harm for these actions. I can say the government hasn't shot anyone for treason in a long time, but I imagine Manning will see the inside of a Federal prison before much longer.
You can't wear a uniform and perform illegal acts without consequence. Sorta like going to work for a bank just to rob them. What he did was illegal, against the law, and he will pay the price. You don't have to like it, there it is. Now place all your money in a plain brown envelope and send it to me, don't worry, I'm trustworthy, you'll get it back after I count it. ;-D
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
In all seriousness, not trying to be funny or disrespectful, democracy needs a bit of a stirring just like a soup or stew needs stirring to be made better. Manning took the spoon and stirred the pot and the USA will never be the same again.
Your advice doesn't do it for me, Timmy. I was 32 before any homosexual act in the UK ceased to be punishable by law. I was compelled by law to serve two years in the navy.
What would you have done? Lobbied for repeal of the Labouchere amendment? I didn't even know what my sexuality was until my twenties.
The advice is inappropriate for the case.
Love,
Anthony
Don't be naive, ChrisJames. Of course you can be in uniform and perform illegal acts. I was in the navy and took other sailors into my bed, for example.
The Victorians were right, you know. If you must break the law, whether because it is unjust or you are wicked: just don't get caught!
And of course if you decide to lobby against a law then you'd better not break that one as they will be watching you!
Love,
Anthony
Dear Timmy,
Was that in accordance with your standards? Sarcasm is rarely anything but a put-down.
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper none dare call it treason.
The question is whether what Manning did was right or wrong. Of course it was treasonable if he is found guilty of treason. That begs the question.
And there are some of us who think that what he did might bring the bloodshed to an earlier end and thus save lives. And that, treason or not, what he did might be right.
Love,
Anthony
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
The point was that the two things you were comparing were unequal. I have simply shown the absurdity of your comparison. Please do not trouble yourself to attempt to rile me. It is rarely successful. I suppose it could rise to the status of mildly annoying, but that is about as high as anyone ever gets
Location: Israel
Registered: October 2004
Messages: 1367
No, Timmy, this will not do.
Your comment to what Anthony wrote was snide and hurtful. You could easily have said what you wanted to say in a different manner. Anthony's response was measured and polite. I can see nothing in his words that a reasonable person would construe as an attempt to rile. Please, let us all - including Timmy - "play nice".
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
Location: Canada
Registered: December 2003
Messages: 869
... I'm afraid I have to agree wholeheartedly with Brody on this one (and I'm loathe to have to admit this), WE HAVE FOCUSED far too much attention on this topic.
Whatever it is that young Manning may, or may not, have done whilst serving in his country's military could very well be questionable no matter how anyone slices it and it most certainly will be in the hands of the JAG to determine the facts, and if appropriate, bring charges. Continued, and endless, speculation is, in my opinion, grossly contraindicated as it appears no consensus on this issue is likely ever going to be reached.
Whether the youth is simply gender confused, truly transgendered or an outright homosexual, should have no bearing on either the pattern of his conduct, or it's rationale, and its' eventual outcome.
Nothing good is going to come from continuing this debate; it has already spiraled into a quagmire of dissent and outright derision.
Warren C. E. Austin
The Gay Deceiver
Toronto, Canada
If you read my post again, Timmy, you will find that I wasn't comparing two things. Nor was I attempting to rile you. I was complaining that your sarcasm didn't live up to the standards you set for the site.
Love,
Anthony
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A Follow-Up To Tim's Statement Regarding PVT Manning 
