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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Why I refuse to fight in a war
Why I refuse to fight in a war  [message #63711] Sat, 11 September 2010 19:27 Go to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Brody and timmy in particular recently have been talking about the "war on gays" if you can call it that. But I agree with others that framing it in terms of a war isn't helpful. It isn't just a matter of semantics though, for a reason I see as a simple one and it's this:

People with gay friends generally support gay rights. When I meet people and tell them about my sexuality the most accepting will almost always say something like "I have a gay friend", "I have a gay boss", "I had a gay neighbour". And I'm sure they aren't always people that started off as accepting.

I think the best way to ensure gay rights is to ensure we have the majority of people on our side. And the best way to ensure that? I think it's to make sure the majority of people have gay friends.

I don't think we just need to be out, loud and proud. Just out. Be out so you can be a gay friend, a gay neighbour or a gay boss. We don't need to be confrontational, things will resolve themselves in time. People are only ever willing to accept change gradually anyway, so why rush it?

For those in pain or that aren't out now. Stay in the closet as long as you need to. Move and live where you need to to feel safe. If you're still young- give your parents time. It may well be hard for them. It's not ideal that you can't be yourself, but keep yourself safe and alive and we will all be able to be ourselves and enjoy full equal rights. Just gradually and by taking occasionally knocks from people that aren't ready yet.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
conditional agreement  [message #63714 is a reply to message #63711] Sat, 11 September 2010 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



If you were just speaking of Australia or Continental Europe, or the UK (with the possible exception of Northern Ireland) I would agree with you.

And, with luck, 'our' example will be enough in what we hope are the other civilised nations. In the more difficult nations such as Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Uganda, Zimbabwe, etc and a great many parts of the USA, I have to disagree.

We may shine as bright lights to the best of our ability and people still want to fire us form our jobs, evict us from our homes, and remove our lives from us.

I do not find it acceptable to have my life removed because I am homosexual. While it would solve homelessness and joblessness, t seems altogether too radical a solution, and not to my taste.

I believe we need to recognise global differences and understand when we have the good luck to live in a decent nation that the situation for us is, currently, an exception globally.

[Updated on: Sat, 11 September 2010 20:03]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: conditional agreement  [message #63716 is a reply to message #63714] Sat, 11 September 2010 20:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

On fire!
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1558



timmy wrote:
(snip)
> I believe we need to recognise global differences and understand when we have the good luck to live in a decent nation that the situation for us is, currently, an exception globally.

Well, of course some of it is luck. But a vary great deal of it is because a very large number of people have spent the past half-century building allies, being the "out gay relative / neighbour / friend" that Saben suggests (.and occasionally misjudging things and ending up in hospital). But we would NOT enjoy the freedoms in most of the UK that we currently have, if we hadn't managed to get a large number of non- LGBTQQ people on our side - including those Bishops in the House of Lords who were influential in passing the 1967 Act.

Some wise person once said words to the effect of "always leave room for your opponent to become your friend. If you can't do that, kill them quickly".

[Updated on: Sat, 11 September 2010 20:43]




"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: conditional agreement  [message #63717 is a reply to message #63714] Sat, 11 September 2010 20:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



How is it possible to stop gay people being murdered in places where the death penalty is the penalty?

I don't think there's much I can do but put pressure on local government to put pressure on their governments. That and tell the people there "get out".

Unless we make it an actual war and go over in arms and fight a civil war against the governments...


I don't think there's anywhere in the United States that has a death penalty for "sodomy" so I don't think it's comparable. I've had country hill-billy types and strongly religious types from the USA as friends online in the past. They might say they disagree with my lifestyle, they might say things like "Really? But you're an okay guy so I find it hard to believe" they might even call me names and decide not to talk to me any more, but they've still met and been friends with a gay man. And that's pushing them in the right direction.

I think my strategy applies to all Western nations at least and in fact most Asian nations, too. The Middle East and Africa have biggest structural problems- it's not a matter of gay rights in most of those countries but human rights. They need liberal democracy before they can even countenance gay marriage. We shouldn't be talking about how to promote equality in those places so much as we should be talking about how to promote basic human rights, liberal democracy and the rule of law. That comes first, inevitably.

So long as we have legal protection from being murdered we can then start to build the bridges that will in the future give full entitlements. If all people can legally do is disagree with us and stop associating with us (which includes firing us and evicting us- those things are inconveniences but things we can deal with) eventually we'll win.

I think the combativeness in the states is a hindrance as much as a help. Yes rallies are useful, yes we should lobby for gay marriage. Yes we should support political parties and groups that would give us equal legal rights. But there's no need to try and actively disparage those that disagree with our views. Instead we should say "meet us first- then judge". Some may not- but they'll slowly die off and the younger people will be more open minded. It's inevitable as long as they can't kill us.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: conditional agreement  [message #63719 is a reply to message #63714] Sat, 11 September 2010 20:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



I also think a lot of the problem in the USA is the size and that often queers flee from the countryside to gay meccas like SanFran and NYC. It's hard to stay in a rural area and be the only gay in the village. But when people do, it helps. When it is safe to.

I don't think my hometown of 100,000 is much more progressive than a lot of places in the USA. It's still got homophobes and racists out the wazoo. It's still a homogeneous whitey paradise. I did move away but for lifestyle reasons (I like big cities) but as more and more gay people decide to stay put in the suburbs and in the country towns the more people in those places will have gay bosses, gay neighbours and gay friends.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: conditional agreement  [message #63732 is a reply to message #63717] Sun, 12 September 2010 08:02 Go to previous message
acam is currently offline  acam

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Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Yes, indeed Saben, and better said than I could do.
Love,
Anthony
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