|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
|
|
|
We have often heard it said that a child under the age of sexual consent has seduced a man or a woman over the age of consent. Elsewhere we can argue about the age of consent itself. I am more interested in setting the law onto a shelf and ignoring it for discussion purposes and considering the act of the seducer and the act of the seduced.
Hermes has said quite clearly that he seduced an older person when he was eight or nine years old. He expressed the experience as what he wanted, that penetration was initially painful, and that he then enjoyed the experience sufficiently to repeat it more than once.
At eight or nine years old I refuse to judge Hermes and boys and girls like him. Sex is, after all, great fun. If they seduce an older person and have great fun, and if they are physically not harmed in any way, I think they should be allowed to be free from any form of guilt (a societal concept in any case). In the same way that a child is not judged for scratching an itch, why should it be judged for scratching a more interesting itch?
So why do I feel uncomfortable about the adult in the relationship? Sex is fun. The child is not only willing, but is the instigator and wants to repeat the experience. Pregnancy is impossible. Intellectually I see that there is no abuse, though I do have concerns about disparity in size and strength.
But there is a size and strength disparity between men and women over the age of consent. So is that concern of mine truly valid with a child?
I still feel emotionally uncomfortable though I am intellectually at peace.
In the past I have often thought that those who are uncomfortable with something may not be uncomfortable with the thing, but with their own desire to do that thing. But I do not desire to do that thing. But, assuming no illegality, would I turn away from the child as seducer and not allow myself to be seduced?
I do not subscribe to the alleged ethics of the those who advocate sex with children. I see those who do as being in some way emotionally and intellectually deficient. I also do not subscribe to the idea that children must be given everything that they ask for. A child asking for sex may be refused with politeness and no qualms or misgivings at all. But why is the converse not true? Why do I feel uneasy about accepting such an invitation were it to be made?
Let me remind you that I am suspending, for the purposes of discussion, any consideration of 'age of consent'. I am simply looking at young and older people, smaller and larger people, people who probably know their own minds and people who may or may not know them well. So do, please think before a knee jerk salvo is fired.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oh My...but you do pose such difficult questions.
The suposition is that a child of...say, eight years of age is going about seducing an adult. The male body at that age is incapable of a testosterone induced sexual response. Any stimulation by touching would only feel good and the result might be considered orgasm, yet without ejaculation.
That covers the physical, and once this young child has the experience it may be expected he will seek it out again. Anal intercourse however is something else again. I can only suppose that Hermes either had some personal exploration of his anus prior to the seduction or the adult took the lead and introduced him to it. I can well imagine the act was painful, but it seems Hermes was determined to allow it.
Beyond the physical act, the seduction must have encompassed other desires. A man who would perform anal intercourse on a child must have some preconceived notion of what it is about. In that case the seduction was met halfway by the desires of the adult. Perhaps Hermes sensed this desire in the man.
A young boy may have gay feelings, many of us have expressed early same sex attraction in other threads. Any contact might be seen as validation of those gay feelings. All children seek comfort and affection. We are taught and learn from an early age that adults are the source of knowledge and affection, so in that I judge Hermes' actions to be normal for him if not a bit premature because of the age.
Of course I would not wish to find myself the object of an eight year old's desires. I don't see kids that age as sexy, I would be disturbed by it...the sex part. But I would seek to validate a boy's sexual feelings, I could not find them at fault. The harsh part is that as an adult I would not be allowed to discuss sexually explicit subjects with the boy, here it is considered illegal to do so unless I held a medical license.
That is the fault in our system and to my mind the cause of so much unnecessary pain. A child may seek medical help because that is allowed, or he may seek religious counseling. I am afraid that much of the latter brought about some of the child abuse we have encountered. If the adult Hermes sought out had been a priest who was at all confused about his sexual feelings then the seduction of an eight year old boy would have been the formula for disaster. But I speculate.
Any adult who is willing to have sex with a child must hold some deep dark secrets in his mind. It is often proposed that such willingness is an attempt to work out former abuse in their own lives. The adult becomes the child once again in an emotional way but the body is mature and the desires are fulfilled in an adult way.
If a child approached me I would have no problem refusing the sex, but my emotional response would be to nurture. If allowed I would seek to introduce the child into peer counseling because I see nothing wrong with a young boy feeling gay. We all had to start somewhere.
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
|
|
|
I do know that the physical penile response in a 7 year old boy is intense and pleasurable. I know this from my own miniature penis at that age  If I had realised that the sensation could have ben caused by someone else playing with it I would have been first in the queue.
Orgasm, per se, is not a real goal, but the excellence of the feelings leading up to immature orgasm is astounding. As a seven year old they were more than exciting enough for me.
By the way, orgasm and ejaculation are separate mechanisms, linked in most people's minds, but separate. One may experience either without the other as an adult. As a boy one's only option is orgasm.
I am also considering female children in this question, though I have only a rough idea how the female body works.
I was not entirely considering penetrative sexual acts. The disparity of size does lead anal penetration to be a potential challenge simply because of geometry. Vaginal penetration is somewhat different because of the vagina's design to allow enormous objects to pass through it, albeit as one way traffic.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
|
|
|
Whether it is desirable or not to reduce some of the prohibitions surrounding youthful sex, it will take a brave politician to suggest it. I can see the tabloid headlines already.
It does make me wonder precisely what is so special about sex.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
 |
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
One thing I've read that really stuck out in my mind is "when you see child and adult, substitute black woman and white man". A lot of the patronising attitudes towards children are unfounded, especially when grouping "children" together as a group instead of treating them as individuals.
Hermes' experience shows that there is nothing inherent in childhood that stops one from being aware, curious or sexual. And by 12 Hermes was fully responsible for himself. A lot of children may not be as capable of dealing with the world as adults, but neither were a lot of black slaves when they were first emancipated.
Social conditioning keeps children powerless and ensures that children DON'T have the capacity to properly deal with adult situations. I think there's a lot more that an 8 year old can deal with than we give them credit for, though. Just as there was a lot black people can deal with that white people never gave them credit for.
And as timmy says- what is so important about sex?
I'm of the opinion that assault should be treated as assault. I don't believe there is anything inherently worse about being raped than being physically assaulted in other ways.
I don't expect any of this to change in my lifetime. But I'm also not as convinced of the need to follow laws. You broke a lot of laws in your youth, Hermes and that wasn't a bad thing- at least not a priori.
I'm a fan of agorism, black markets and civil disobedience. I believe the happiest and most productive society emerges with its own rules without prescriptive top-down rules being forced on people. By breaking laws and following ones own inner moral compass I think a better society will be achieved.
Society needs rules, but it doesn't need laws. Laws by nature rely on violence and coercion to be enforced. Rules on the other hand can be enforced through social conventions. Language is not a law, but it has a lot of rules that people follow- but we're still given the freedom to depart from those rules. I think morality should be essentially the same.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
|
|
|
Saben wrote:
> One thing I've read that really stuck out in my mind is "when you see child and adult, substitute black woman and white man". A lot of the patronising attitudes towards children are unfounded, especially when grouping "children" together as a group instead of treating them as individuals.
I accept some of that. Indeed, I accept it all except this sentence:
"when you see child and adult, substitute black woman and white man"
Here, for the simplest of reasons, I disagree. The simple reason is that intellectually, emotionally, and intuitively the statement is incorrect.
[Updated on: Sat, 18 September 2010 14:11]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Unfortunately Hermes, I agree with you. This "knee jerk reaction" you speak about doesn't solve the issues, it only addresses the popular, often narrow minded issues of a particular group. Where is the reaction to all this bullying we read about?
If we as society do not deal with the issue then individuals like this will have their own "knee jerk reactions," and I can't blame this man one tiny bit:
http://www.kens5.com/news/national/Dad-goes-into-tirade-after-bus-bullies-target-disabled-daughter-103168809.html
I hope he takes it to court, and has a jury trial where he can show the incompetence of those who were hired and whose jobs were to protect his daughter. Time to bring back public flogging of the incompetent...but that's just my "knee jerk reaction."
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
I believe many (maybe even all) of the things we say children are incapable of, they are actually capable of.
Just because children are seen as inferior that is not a justified belief any more than the belief that blacks are inferior.
I actually don't think children would be all that bad off if we abolished laws that aren't age-blind.
Sure most children have different capacities to most adults- but you have to wonder how much of that is socialised. Even amongst adults capacities vary greatly. I don't know that the "school 'til 16, no legal work until 14" model is even all that great for kids.
But let's move away from consequentialist arguments and move to deontological arguments. Even if it is "for the best" to treat kids as sub-humans why is moral to do so? Why do we refuse to grant kids the basic human liberties that are universally offered to all other humans (including the right to work, the right to contract and yes- the right to have sex with a partner of their choosing)?
Furthermore why do we grant ownership of children to their parents in a way that would constitute slavery were it an adult with another adult?
[Updated on: Sat, 18 September 2010 15:10]
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm sorry Hermes...didn't mean to hijack this thread away from Timmy's stated purpose, I am starting a new one...
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
I think one of the problems with bullying in schools is that schools entrench a culture of bullying through the teacher-student relationship.
Bullying is most prevalent in environments with strongly hierarchical structures. Outside of schools one of the places you hear bullying about most is the military. I don't think that's a co-incidence.
I'd be interested to hear about the incidence of bullying at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School or other similar alternative schools that don't use a coercive hierarchical model.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
Hermes- I have actually stood for election before. On a broader libertarian platform rather than one specific to "child liberation", however.
I think I'd be too scared of taking a "child liberation" platform public. All but the most die-hard (political) anarchists have bought into the inferiority of children and the need to protect them. Even amongst people that are generally anti-government there is a strong sentiment of "except for kids who deserve to be coerced, patronised and threatened".
If I had a "cleaner" background I would consider it, but I began dating my current boyfriend when he was a minor (14). So my motives would be too easy to question and my views too easy to discredit.
In the meantime I run with a political party that is moderately anti-government, fairly similar to the Libertarian Party in the USA. It's not perfect but it broadly supports greater autonomy (for adults at least) which I see as a start. Since getting involved with politics I've tried to limit the connections between my real life and here, though, largely because of my views on the freedom of children. The party I'm involved with isn't large enough that I risk actually getting elected, but I hope to at least promote some ideas that might have people starting to think that things could be done differently.
Meandering off-topic again a little. But such things happen.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hermes~
There is a vital piece of legislation pending in the United States Senate, entitled the Safe Schools Act, which addresses many of the bullying problems that have now, according to the CDC in Atlanta, become a pandemic in the United States.
Unfortunately, it is very much opposed by well funded groups such as Focus on The Family and the Family Research Council to name a few. In fact, Focus has put out a video via a new website which says that the attempt to corral and fix the problem is little more than advocation of the so-called homosexual agenda.
Unless more political pressure is brought to bear, the Senate Majority Leader's office has told me that passage is unlikely in the near future and should the elections prove to close the gap in seats, the GOP will successfully block it altogether or water it down.
Should you desire more info you can visit my website for references and articles detailing this as I have covered now 2 youths who committed suicide as a result of anti-gay bullying. One in early July in Minnesota, and now Billy Lucas two weeks ago in Indiana.
~ Brody Levesque
[Updated on: Sat, 18 September 2010 15:49] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
Email on its way.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
More often than not in the United States, the principal focus of the media and quite frankly the judicial system is on the 'male offenders' as quite obviously a disproportionate number of crimes against children are committed by males.
Following Tim's thread and train of thought, I often have wondered why there is a standard 'age of consent' in most cases that sets a particular range as acceptable. Then I look at the assertions that males are by and large most responsible when there are cases of female offenders. When you talk about adults in particular... where are the lines of demarcation set and by whose standards?
And then there's accountability....
Please read the following story from a suburban Washington DC newspaper:
Ex-pastor convicted of sex with teen-- Youth minister convicted of having sex with teenage boy.
The former youth minister at a Stafford church was convicted of three charges yesterday in connection with sexual relations she had with a teenage boy.
Jennifer Michelle Brennan, 37, of Spotsylvania was convicted of using a communications device to solicit sex from a minor, child neglect and unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor.
She will be facing a maximum penalty of 16 years in prison when she is sentenced Nov. 22 in Stafford Circuit Court.
Brennan entered Alford pleas to the charges, meaning that while she doesn't admit guilt, she acknowledges that the evidence is sufficient for convictions.
In exchange for Brennan's pleas, prosecutor Eric Olsen dropped 17 related charges.
According to the evidence presented by Olsen, Brennan was the youth minister at St. Matthias United Methodist Church on Deacon Road when the incidents began in January of last year.
As part of her job, she provided counseling to the 15-year-old boy with whom she eventually had relations.
During the first incident, in a parking lot after a concert, Olsen said, the boy told Brennan that he couldn't do this to his girlfriend. Brennan convinced the boy he wasn't doing anything wrong and they proceeded to touch and kiss each other.
Olsen said the encounters became more heated after that. He said Brennan had "serious" sexual contact with the boy at least 10 times over the next couple of months.
Most of the meetings occurred in Brennan's van in Target and Walmart parking lots.
On one occasion, Olsen said, Brennan took the boy to her home while her husband was away on a business trip.
Both the boy's father and grandmother noticed the amount of time Brennan was spending with the boy and asked her why he often got home so late.
She told them she was his counselor and that what they talked about was confidential.
"She used her position at the church as a shield," Olsen said.
Olsen said Brennan once left a youth group function to have sex with the boy. He said they frequently talked on the phone and sent text messages to each other.
The boy eventually told his girlfriend what was going on and the information got back to church officials. He said the church took immediate action.
Brennan, meanwhile, started what Olsen described as a "campaign of lies."
She told church officials and social service workers that the boy had raped her three times.
Defense attorney Mark Gardner said he plans to bring up Brennan's side of the story at her sentencing, along with evidence about her mental health and background.
Gardner also asked Judge J. Martin Bass to allow Brennan to remain free on bond pending sentencing.
He said she has no prior record, poses no threat and that the sentencing guidelines for her convictions call for no incarceration.
He also pointed out that she still has the support of her husband and others. A large contingent of supporters wearing green ribbons packed the courtroom yesterday.
Olsen asked that bond be revoked, saying she "twisted" the trust that was placed in her and that she continues to lie by portraying herself as a victim.
Bass revoked Brennan's bond, but left open the possibility of her being placed on electronic home incarceration prior to sentencing.
Now, note these comments:
supporters (posted by shadowfax1 , Sep. 17, 2010 11:42 pm)
the youth had supporters trust me. What she had was a crazy following who did nothing but intimidate a young man. These nuts support someone who was 35 a youth group consler, married to a US Marshall, 2 kids, and let me not forget a christian. Really those supporters are as crazy as her. Those who support a pedaphile need help.
@ f4td4ddy (posted by nilla , Sep. 17, 2010 7:42 pm)
you have the only reasonable post here. There are 2 sides to every story and only 1 side has been told. People are wrongly accused of, and convicted of crimes everyday. Can't say I blame her for taking a plea. Based on these comments, it seems unlikely to find 12 fair minded jury members. She had a lot of supporters, he didn't....that says a lot. Has anyone here considered that plea bargains are not offered when the prosecutor has an airtight case.
DP...I find it interesting that the USA (posted by soldat65 , Sep. 17, 2010 9:29 am)
is home to the brightest people on the planet, yet we cannot discuss this type of subject without bringing religion and other firmly held beliefs into a discussion like this. When it comes to sex I hear all the open doors slam shut to keep out the light. But I give up since I don't want to be branded by the vocal intelligencia as unfeeling, uncaring etc etc. Because we know that logic cannot be allowed to prevail...emotion rules.
@larryg & soldat65 (posted by mamaz13 , Sep. 17, 2010 8:00 am)
(Soldat65, your attitude that consensual is subjective sickens me.) To make all of this even more horrid, the youth of my church (and yes, this happened at my church), had blossomed and grown in their faith and love of God while Ms. Brennan was the youth leader. And for the record, She WAS NOT our pastor. It was amazing to see the transformation in these kids spirituality. What do you think is happening inside their minds right now? About trusting anything Ms. Brennan had taught them about their faith?
A few points... (posted by mamaz13 , Sep. 17, 2010 7:49 am)
As a survivor, Larryg, I was physically sick when I read, "give her and folks like her - the opportunity to pay for their crime but get on with life & instead of costing taxpayers 40K a year" I'm 54 & I have never been able to just "get on with life" Even though I could not have stopped what happened, I felt shame, guilt, & self-loathing for years. And I didn't have the horror of seeing a family's heart torn to pieces, a church rocked to the foundation, or, in this case a young girl's heart crushed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
|
|
|
It comes down, yet again, to the basic question: Why is sex so important?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
|
|
|
I think your argument fails at the point you postulate that people hold children to be inferior.
The difference between children and adults is experience. A child has experienced fewer things than an adult simply by virtue of elapsed time. This does not make them inferior, nor does it make the adult superior. It simply means they have less experience of cause and effect. They have less experience of other people and their motivation.
Your argument is one of oratory rather than substance. You cannot equate arguments for and against mixed race relationships with arguments for and against mixed age relationships, though it does make for a stratagem of rhetoric.
Parents do not own children. We own goods and chattels. A child is not a good nor a chattel. We may not lawfully put a child to work, nor harm it, nor nor sell it, nor enslave it. A parent (or equivalent adult in a formal relationship with the child) is responsible for the child's welfare and, to a great extent, the child's actions. That extent diminishes as the child's age increases.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ray2x
|
 |
Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
|
|
|
For a late reply, I think a young boy is getting good and ready for sex. It's a developmental episode in which a young person's body is preparing for at a basic biological level, procreation. The sex which involves a pure feel good action or actions is there too. But we just ignore it, casting it off as a piece of pedeophilism.
Any young person has already touched and stroked his/her genitilia to a climatic end. They are way ahead of us adults. Maybe what we can do is allow their natural development with frank information. I doubt this would or could be the case presently.
If a young boy is comfortable with his sexuality, he ought to explore sex with same age boys. If he seeks an older boy, he ought to be allowed. An adult male ought to butt out. But like any human interaction, a boy could seek sexual pleasure with an adult male. Relationships can happen.
I guess I can't imagine this point but only speculate. But the present is just not the time for this sort of relationship. And for the time, it's best to leave this subject in the folds of developmental and biological psychology.
If this post angers, I apologise in advance
Raymundo
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
seduction and ages 
Re: seduction and ages 
Re: seduction and ages 
