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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Shedding a little light
icon3.gif Shedding a little light  [message #64514] Wed, 27 October 2010 19:33 Go to next message
dartagnon is currently offline  dartagnon

Likes it here
Location: Massachusetts and Florida...
Registered: June 2003
Messages: 354




Please consider this with an open mind and a fair heart. I mean no disrespect to any of you. Nor can I stand what may happen if we continue on this path.

A lot has been made about bombings, killings and requested suicides. A lot has been made about fasicists, wars and poetry. A lot has been made about things getting better and things looking worse.

It all must end.

I know we all feel strongly about this, brothers. These are dire times for all of us, both gay and straight. No one with a strong moral nature, sense of public decency or just plain streak of humanity wants to see children die. Some may be indifferent to a death that does not impact their world personally, but no one who calls himself a MAN wants to see any child, gay or other, kill themselves.

Turning our anger against each other, that's what the radical, extremist, fundamentalist religious right wants. They want us demoralized. They want us reeling from the shock of the outrageous things they say. They want us sniping at each other's throats and further dividing our ability to DO anything.

This is counterproductive and it must end.

You all have good points to make. You all have notions about what is either snide, comical, synical, insightful, preemptory and necessary. And you should all be heard. But let's not turn on each other. It only makes us weaker and them seem to be correct as well as "right."

It is a war. In a war, you must have a plan, a strategy. Let's not turn this into a friendly fire thing. Saben made a point, although without his usual degree of tact, that our kids are dying because of things being done and said by fundamentalist christians and far right-wing politicians. He is right to remind us that we have to strike back. Perhaps not with killing, which only lowers us to their level, but something must be done. To that I believe we all must agree.

Des also made a point worth serious consideration. It's a war, but it wont be won with a single hammer blow. It will be an uphill climb with a lot of battles, some we'll win, some we wont. I don't think measuring our success will come in kids we've saved from bullying or prevented from taking their own lives. I think we need to figure out how to change the way people view us, daily. I think we need to encourage the growing trend of young gay men and women to come out more often, to reach out to their friends for support and understanding. I think we need to encourage our young people to start living each day being more aware of their world and thus better able to cope with it.

Brody, I don't know you very well, so what I hae to say might seem contrary or unthinking. I only ask you hear me out. Outrage often leads to outrage. Extremism often is countered with equally intractable extremism. And as we all know, the internet is a wonderful place for fools like McCance to spout off their hatred as well as for any of us to reply in kind with a certain amount of anonymity and lack of restraint. Saben might be angry, he might even be stressing a point past hyperbole, but he does raise a significant point, despite the loose retorhic. A point I think you mirror. "When will enough be enough to get positive action going?"

I like to think that you feel the same way, Tim. We're two of the older dogs chasing around here, and I know that you could easily put yourself into the role of a parent who might have to face what the families of these poor lost young men must face now. I know that you, like me, believe in civility and doing things right the first time. But, also like you, I can be hot headed and ready to strike back, full force, at any perceived attack at either my person or my beliefs. And, again in similarity, I can see that this is a war. It's a 12 round boxing match with a heavy weight facing down against a lighter fighter. If we're going to win, we need to stick and move, not allow our opponent to measure us and put us down with one hard shot.

That's us, my brothers. We're the ones on the short side of the ledger here. But we can't let the big bully pound us. Stand our ground, by all means. Run if we must. Fight, but not by their rules. For if we do, we shall surely lose. This is a battle of heart and head, not just one or the other. We aren't going to change the minds of those who are dead-set against us. But we can do other things to make the fight more even. We can do things to help the victims thrive and survive. We can let our youngest brothers know that they aren't alone.

But what we cannot do, not not not NOT, is engage in pointless bickering amongst ourselves. I've often called this sight a lighthouse. And it is, but it's only one light. We all have to step up and put our lights against the darkness as well.

And for the record, I live in the "south." There are a lot of our kids here, hiding, afraid because of family or religious reasons to be what they feel they are inside. It's sad, sick and twisted, but I know the pressures and beliefs that sometimes fester in bad ways here. But before we go the radical amputation route, let's try some medicine and healing. After all, if you flatten Buttfuck, America with carpet bombing, you'll wind up killing them and me, too.

Our fight has to be smart, brothers, but let's not forget this is also a rescue mission. We need leaders, heroes, healers, statesmen and organizers here, not just the half drunk rabble rousers who took some unruly colonies away from a far away king and turned it into the mess I live in. The tea party/tea baggers only incite, they don't do anything useful. Let's stop emulating them and band up properly.

Let's turn our lights on, help those we can, and guide those who don't understand to see we're not the boogie man. War is about gaining and keeping ground. Don't waste your rage on pushing each other around. Like the Spartans of antiquity, we have to hold the pass before we can win. Also like those Spartans, we have to hold together and gather support or else we will be undone from behind.

Please, think about it.

[Updated on: Wed, 27 October 2010 20:15]




It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
icon4.gif Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64515 is a reply to message #64514] Wed, 27 October 2010 20:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

Really getting into it
Location: US/Canada
Registered: September 2009
Messages: 733



The best possible response I can think of is to go here and read my work product and then carefully consider the contents of the right hand column of the page which are Links & Resources:

[ http://brodylevesque.blogspot.com/ ]

This is the best way to get to know me and see EXACTLY my stances on LGBT issues.
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64516 is a reply to message #64514] Wed, 27 October 2010 21:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



My view is not even to do with any of the points you make. I will not accept behaviour that devalues a thread.

My stance on gay equality issues is very plain. 100% equality.

I don't say either of these things to argue with you.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
icon4.gif Americans behaving badly.  [message #64518 is a reply to message #64514] Wed, 27 October 2010 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dartagnon is currently offline  dartagnon

Likes it here
Location: Massachusetts and Florida...
Registered: June 2003
Messages: 354




I just saw a vid of a man putting his foot onto a woman's head at a political rally for Rand Paul. What sort of Nazi tactics are these Tea Party freaks going to do next, put on uniforms an start parades in the street?

There are bad people out there. Fundamentally bad. But how can anyone condone such activity? Keep on your toes, fellow voters. If they sieze power in this election, it might spell the end of the basic freedoms we all enjoy. It certainly will put into positions of legislative power people who are controlled by big business, big religion and small minds.

Let's get this thing straight: if you want to keep doing the same things that lead to ruin and suddenly expect a different result, isn't that one of the definitions of insanity? Someone else here said it best. I paraphrase: "Those who got us into this mess aren't going to be the ones to get us out of it."

Dum spiro, spero! And I like breathing.



It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64519 is a reply to message #64514] Thu, 28 October 2010 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



I don't know if I believe it's a war, but if that's the rhetoric being used then we should be ready to take real action and fight. That is my point.

There is no point tarring our opponents as nazis, calling it a holocaust and then just hoping lobbing politicians will work. The rhetoric is not in line with the proposed responses.

I'm actually inclined to think that it's probably not a war. Which is why everyone finds the idea of killing our enemies repugnant.

The fact that it's not a war doesn't somehow mean its trivial, however. No-one's said that.

In fact I think using extreme rhetoric without extreme action is just counter-productive.

Suicide due to bullying is a horrible tragedy- it happens amongst non-gay kids too. It's a cultural problem due the normative side of human nature- a lot of us want to force conformity.

The rhetoric in parts of the South is horrible, too. But remember it's still democratic and most of these people- whatever their views only want to withhold marriage from us. I don't believe saying it's a war and making them into enemies is constructive.

Some of them we might never convince. But our job should be to convince them. Not antagonise them. As hurt as they are being they aren't nazis, they aren't fascists and they aren't our enemy. They are need to learn. Some never will but my earlier points about being a gay friend, gay neighbour and gay colleague stand.

Be a friend- be kind- and eventually society will change. Spread atheism, spread science, it will catch on because it's right.

There's not any other way to get change unless we want to nuke them all. Being antagonistic isn't going to change their minds.

It's frustrating to be told in big red writing "fuck you" just because I refuse to use the rhetoric of war without actually engaging in combat. And yet I'm the one that's juvenile.

Soon I think the only ones left here will be timmy and Brody. Standing up and bleating to an empty town hall. It's not a lighthouse anymore, it's a megaphone telling you what to think and believe.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
icon13.gif Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64520 is a reply to message #64519] Thu, 28 October 2010 02:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

Really getting into it
Location: US/Canada
Registered: September 2009
Messages: 733



Look Shem~ I'm NOT fucking telling you what to think nor am I telling you what to believe. What I am saying is that the LGBT folk need to be VERY proactive about protesting the lack of full equality and their rights.

YOUR problem is that you aren't thinking globally and culturally which just astonishes me. Safety is also VERY relative as well.

Yes, maybe this place isn't what it was ten years ago when you were 15- agreed. BUT, that doesn't mean its not a safe haven still. I am available for example to extend help, but I do so in the real world not hiding behind a silly screen name.

Then there's this too young one- I've been fighting for Gay rights in my own way and as a journalist for half again more than you've been alive.

Maybe its not as pressing [ Equality ]as I've stated there in Victoria, but it sure as hell is here. And unlike Oz, we have folk here that actively seek out ways to destroy the very human spirit of the LGBT folk with the bullshit theological philosophy and doctrines they espouse.

IF you cannot believe me, then for God's sake, GO LOOK at the rest of the press coverage, and I mean mainstream media. It's all there.

Changing one's heart & mind takes alot of effort on numerous fronts Shem. Now maybe fighting and waging the war Tim & I do is not your forte, fine. But for god's sake, for the sake of that scared 15 year old you once were, and maybe in some ways still are, find a way to help.

That is all I'm asking. You've been mistaught if you think that my profession lives to shove praetorian shit down your throat as any true to the calling of my chosen career & profession would bristle at the very notion.

Same thing I told the fourth musketeer I'll say to you. go READ my blog and then decide for yourself just how fucking evil I apparently am eh?

[Updated on: Thu, 28 October 2010 02:46]

Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64522 is a reply to message #64520] Thu, 28 October 2010 03:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dartagnon is currently offline  dartagnon

Likes it here
Location: Massachusetts and Florida...
Registered: June 2003
Messages: 354




For the record, the fourth musketeer wasn't taking shots at anyone. And he read at your site. And he was just calling for us to stop opening fire on each other.

We shouldn't make points against each other like snippy high school girls. That's not who any of us are. No one is denying that you know what you are talking about. Actually, I'm counting on you having the knowledge and insight that I don't to at least let me make an informed decision. We all have to learn in order to get things done.

Say what you must, because we all need to hear it. But come on guys, work together.



It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64523 is a reply to message #64522] Thu, 28 October 2010 04:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dartagnon is currently offline  dartagnon

Likes it here
Location: Massachusetts and Florida...
Registered: June 2003
Messages: 354




My head hurts now from trying to get us closer to the same page. You fight hardest with your own family, i guess, but you fight just as hard for them as well. I'm going to sleep. Maybe that will give me prespective and insight into why we're so divided right when we need to lock shields and hold the line.

Wake me up when October ends.



It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64524 is a reply to message #64520] Thu, 28 October 2010 07:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



Hiding behind a screen name?

That's where some kids feel safest.

But I guess you wouldn't know that. The media loves outing people.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64525 is a reply to message #64519] Thu, 28 October 2010 08:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



Saben wrote:
> There is no point tarring our opponents as nazis, calling it a holocaust and then just hoping lobbing politicians will work. The rhetoric is not in line with the proposed responses.

What does that mean?

> In fact I think using extreme rhetoric without extreme action is just counter-productive.

Why?

> Some of them we might never convince. But our job should be to convince them. Not antagonise them. As hurt as they are being they aren't nazis, they aren't fascists and they aren't our enemy.

Are they not? What allows you to say this? What do you see that is different in their behaviour?

> Be a friend- be kind- and eventually society will change. Spread atheism, spread science, it will catch on because it's right.

How many more kids must kill themselves before this kind and gentle approach takes hold? Should we now stop highlighting the cause of their suicides?

Read this: "Now, I say that as somebody who appreciates that the LGBT community very legitimately feels these issues in very personal terms. So it’s not my place to counsel patience. One of my favorite pieces of literature is “Letter from Birmingham Jail,” and Dr. King had to battle people counseling patience and time. And he rightly said that time is neutral. And things don’t automatically get better unless people push to try to get things better." - A bloke named Obama said this yesterday:

http://www.americablog.com/2010/10/transcript-of-q-and-with-president.html (I have no idea why this does not turn into a link automatically, so it's copy and paste)

> It's frustrating to be told in big red writing "fuck you" just because I refuse to use the rhetoric of war without actually engaging in combat. And yet I'm the one that's juvenile.

Your behaviour in the other thread was juvenile.

> Soon I think the only ones left here will be timmy and Brody. Standing up and bleating to an empty town hall. It's not a lighthouse anymore, it's a megaphone telling you what to think and believe.

I imagine you failed to see my post about that. Others noticed it.

http://forum.iomfats.org/w-agora/index.php?bn=forumiomfatsorg_placeofsafety&key=1287258255&pattern=&action=view is the one

[Updated on: Thu, 28 October 2010 09:47]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
icon4.gif Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64527 is a reply to message #64524] Thu, 28 October 2010 14:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

Really getting into it
Location: US/Canada
Registered: September 2009
Messages: 733



Watch this Shem... You aren't listening at all:
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64528 is a reply to message #64525] Thu, 28 October 2010 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



timmy wrote:
> Saben wrote:
> > Some of them we might never convince. But our job should be to convince them. Not antagonise them. As hurt as they are being they aren't nazis, they aren't fascists and they aren't our enemy.
>
> Are they not? What allows you to say this? What do you see that is different in their behaviour?
>

I see the same differences that you see that make you think it's inappropriate to want to kill them.

If it was Goebbels or Hitler or Himmler and I said "we should kill them" people would be agreeing with me. No-one would call me juvenile.

You don't want to kill them- that to me implies you admit there are differences between the fundamentalist Christians in America and actual Nazis.

In case you can't think of them off the top off your head here's a few:
-They aren't sending us to the gas chambers.
-There are very few sexuality motivated murders and those that do occur are almost universally condemned
-The democratic process is being used rather than it being an autocracy.

Kids killing themselves for whatever reason is horrible. "It gets better" is hugely important. But it is NOT genocide, nor a holocaust. It's not even comparable. It's 5-6 kids within a few weeks. 5-6 too many, sure, but also remember they took their own lives. They weren't murdered- they made a choice. I've wanted to kill myself before- including over sexuality. The fact that I live in Melbourne, Australia (as Brody likes to mention in every post) doesn't mean I had an easy job of it growing up gay. I wasn't bullied much over it- my struggle was almost entirely cultural and internal. But at the end of the day I chose to live. No-one is FORCED to commit suicide.

Bullying is horrible. Awful. And I'd end it tomorrow if I had the power. I'd remove the discrimination and the normalisation. But why don't I want to use extreme rhetoric? Well for a start because it turns off moderate allies.


Here's a comment from a friend in response to the FCKH8 campaign:
"How NOT to do a pro-gay marriage ad. Sure, it's entertaining for those who already support it, but it's meant to convince those that are still on the fence, and this ad fails dismally - and could even be counterproductive."

He supports gay marriage, but extreme language turns him off.

Here's a comment from another supporter of gay marriage:
"Whoa... that's a strange video. The ACTUAL arguments between all the unnecessary swearing is valid. However, I don't think dragging the issue into the gutter is helping the cause!!!"

And another:
"I agree. I don't see how aggression (and young children swearing) is meant to convince conservatives that homosexuality is good for society- surely it leads to the opposite conclusion..."

And another:
"So many thoughts going through my head right now, and I just cannot articulate them all. I'm gobsmacked. BTW, I'm pro-gay rights and all, but the execution of this campaign leaves a lot to be desired. Perhaps by donating we can get them to do a proper campaign the next time around LOL"


Calling it a second holocaust and a war is NOT going to appeal to the middle and those on the fence. They are who we need to convince- they are our potential allies. Using extreme language even risks discouraging people from being involved.

Kids are dying and there are very FEW people that would support that. Even if they are gay kids. I'm sure very few of the bullies wanted them DEAD.

I never said that a "gentle" approach is the only one that works. And in fact I agree with being angry. But in wars you kill people- if you don't want to kill people then it's not a war. Call it what it is- it's kids dying because of bullies and thugs and for no good reason. Kids that have plenty to live for. The perpetrators are cowards and disgusting. The school systems and parents that don't intervene sooner are despicable. But they are not nazis and it isn't a second holocaust.

If we stoop down to the level of the homophobes we'll just get sore backs.

[Updated on: Thu, 28 October 2010 14:10]




Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64529 is a reply to message #64527] Thu, 28 October 2010 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



He's a horrible person, no doubt.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler
Here's what Himmler- an actual Nazi accomplished.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64530 is a reply to message #64529] Thu, 28 October 2010 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



And I agree that we should be trying make sure "it gets better NOW".

A slow and steady approach isn't good enough for kids killing themselves NOW. But that doesn't mean we need to use extreme rhetoric.

Obama's "it gets better speech" never once referred to a war, yet I'm sure his speech had a massive impact.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
icon5.gif Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64531 is a reply to message #64529] Thu, 28 October 2010 14:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

Really getting into it
Location: US/Canada
Registered: September 2009
Messages: 733



And your point is? How can you compare the two? You're focusing on the rhetoric and partly metaphoric essaying here but not grasping the concepts.

THIS was an elected school board official who in essence bullied an entire school district. Think about this for a split second Shem, imagine you're a Gay 15 year old in that place, Independence County, Arkansas, and one of the adults in charge of your schools said that...

Focus on the point. Use of the term War or Christonazi is simply to draw comparative illustrative lines.... oh and your use of Reichsführer Himmler? Shem, go look at what happens to Gay folk in Iran and THEN make your analogy.

Can you honestly tell me that in your campaigns for public office in the States of Tasmania and Victoria you NEVER artistically use the language and its constructs to make a political point?

Get over it Shem. Wake up to the political reality of what is going on in the American electoral landscape right now. Those Christonazis would give the LGBT community a proper home alright, in mental institutions and prisons if they could get away with it. That is a political reality.

If you're so glib as to research out Herr Himmler, why don't you at least be productive and research out the organisations in the U. S. that are fundamentalist and extreme enough to mirror some of the Nazi ideology in the 'cultural wars.'
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64532 is a reply to message #64531] Thu, 28 October 2010 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



My point is extreme rhetoric loses allies and doesn't appeal to the middle.

Standing around screaming at each other about how horrible the world is does nothing if we're not able to get others to join our cause.

The shriller your voice often the less likely people are to listen to you. We need allies from the middle. Look at the responses from gay-friendly straight people to FCKH8. Keep calling it a "war", keeping calling Christians "Nazis", keep sledging Republicans and we'll lose the middle.

That's my point.

We have allies that are Christians. We have allies that are Republicans. They would agree that McCance is a giant douchebag. But they'll only agree with us to a point.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
icon4.gif Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64533 is a reply to message #64532] Thu, 28 October 2010 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

Really getting into it
Location: US/Canada
Registered: September 2009
Messages: 733



I see, well then Shem, here's this viewpoint from a widely respected LGBT activist who has employed the rhetoric you've complained about.
In a recent op-ed he writes:

"If the House and Senate fall into Republican Tea Party hands on November 2nd, the LGBT community will be facing the most hostile United States Congress in our history. The election of these bonafide Teabagging wing-nuts could cause chaos, fear and intimidation in our political process. Their ascendancy to power would validate some truly dark and despicable forces operating in American politics. If we think it is hard to achieve equal rights now just try and do it in a Tea Party dominated Congress.

Simply put, our political and government process could end up in chaos, anger, violence and the legitimizing of bigotry against LGBT people in American politics. You think I might be exaggerating? Well, then guess again because all over the country we have seen time and time again this election season the most extreme positions, unheard-of actions and uninformed incitement to overthrow the government. These incidents have not been isolated - they have been rabidly, almost incoherently widespread.

The more prominent ones feature the literal call to arms by Sharron Angle in Nevada, the numbing idiocy of Ken Buck of Colorado's stance on LGBT issues, the handcuffing of a reporter by the black suited, sunglass wearing staff of Alaska's Joe Miller or the dragging to the ground of a MoveOn worker in Kentucky and then stomping on her head by the supporters of Rand Paul. The list does stop here. The tragic fact is that I can go on and on reciting devastating positions of Tea Party candidates and the mindless and mean-spirited rhetoric they employ daily that validates violence."

And then he adds this warning:

"Believe me the America they advocate does not include us as full citizens."

Here's his pedigree:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Mixner
icon3.gif Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64534 is a reply to message #64514] Thu, 28 October 2010 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dartagnon is currently offline  dartagnon

Likes it here
Location: Massachusetts and Florida...
Registered: June 2003
Messages: 354




I had a sort of revelation last night while I was driving around in the rain. You see, I deliver newspapers through a rural area, with about 200 miles of forest and farmland rushing by as I go. It's often fraught with animals crossing the roads, so you have to be very alert. Can't think of anyone that would want to hit a deer while driving a Kia.

Anyways, the revelation is this: balance. So often when we see something done that is outrageous and worrisome, we react in the opposing direction. It's probably some inborn thing, not well enough understood. I must admit, I find myself doing so at times as well.

But just because it is our automatic, instinctive need to counter something that we oppose with an equal and opposite movement, does that make it the smart thing to do? We pride ourselves so much on being rational, intelligent beings. There must be another way.

So I thought long and hard about it while I drove last night. 6 hours chasing through the wilds of northern Santa Rosa county while Mother Nature watered her gardens put me in the right mood, I guess. So, as I was navigating streams that were just a handswidth from topping over bridges, I got to thinking about physics.

Yeah, I know. Not exactly congruent to the discussions in this thread so far. But it dawned on me that things in the political realm could be heavily simplified to representations on a balance beam with a high fulcrum. The individuals, groups, parties, religions,or whatever as yet unnamed masses of society could be represented by weights, placed to either the left or right of the fulcrum, depending upon their views. Or the the center, directly over the fulcrum. Distance out along the beam in either direction makes for the extremism of a given point of view.

So, with this model in mind, I let my thoughts drift over the rift I felt going on here. And I let myself also put things on the grander scale into the balance as well. And while I could easily see the necessity of their being say, a given mass at 2 meters left balanced with a similar mass at 2 meters right to attain equilibrium, another thought occured.

If you keep more masses closer to the fulcrum, instead of further out left, if the mass at right moves out far enough, it will fall off on it's own. If the greater portion of mass is still at center, the masses on the longer movement arms, while gaining a lot of mobility and velocity, will likely fling themselves off.

Perhaps the same is true for us as well. I admit, as a writer, that words are my tools. Sensationalism can be productive in my trade, or it can become worthless, overblown, junk. I am guilty at times of the later. My guess is we all do.

We need our anger, it is our fuel. But we don't need to be ruled by it.
We need our cooler heads, because equal and opposite response only maintains the current tension. We need to give those that are radical and dangerous the space to do themselves in by proving we have logic, compassion, reason, and common sense on our side, not by giving in to be raving beasts that they are, who can only bleat out the same thing.

I had hoped to at least start uniting us here, and let some of the unheard voices in the group step forward, without fear of reprisals, to speak their minds. To stimulate discussion, so we can figure out how best to cope with this situation. So please, you who haven't spoken up, I'd like to hear your opinions as well. And if I've offended anyone, please know that was not my intent.

Peace, Brothers

[Updated on: Thu, 28 October 2010 15:59]




It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64536 is a reply to message #64528] Thu, 28 October 2010 19:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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I'll wait until you have answered the rest of the points.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64537 is a reply to message #64534] Thu, 28 October 2010 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DesDownunder is currently offline  DesDownunder

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Where do I start?
There is so much angst going on that it is difficult to know what to reply to first.

I suppose I should dispel any idea that Australia is somehow immune to the Christian bigotry that pervades the other parts of the world including the USA. It's true that our modified code of free speech doesn't provide quite the same degree of having to listen to outrageous free for all opinion that we see and hear in America. We don't have quite the same protection for separation of church and state either, thanks to a high court ruling some years ago, but neither do we have a threatened theocracy...yet in some ways we have one in de facto. Never the less, our bigots are just as closed minded and just as dangerous as any in the US. They are just as determined to make us obey their sacred texts, to adhere to their interpretations of hell on Earth.

As for the war, in my op-ed on the war, I was drawing attention to the idea that the conflict could not be won with integrity by adopting the methods of confrontation, or the hideous weapons of mindful destruction of our opponents, because we do not want to destroy our enemy, we only fight for our freedom to realise the birthright of equality.

Look at history. The down trodden, the slaves have rarely emancipated themselves. In the American Civil War, September 1862, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation made ending slavery in the South a war goal, and dissuaded the British from intervening. Britain abolished slavery throughout the British Empire with the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, the French colonies abolished it 15 years later, while slavery in the United States was abolished in 1865 with the 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Why do I mention slavery? Because abolition of slavery was often accompanied by warring factions within the same government, nation, or political system.

Rarely were the slaves actually fighting for their freedom, but they were fighting a war. Whether that was a war against starving or a war they were told to fight, it was still a war.

Of course we should mention the slaves revolt under Spartacus in Ancient Rome, but here the example of man's innate desire and birthright to be free is supplanted by his willingness to die for the cause as well as for his leader.

Take now the history of the persecution of the homosexual since the fall of the Roman Empire. We could go back further but the Dark Ages should be sufficient to illustrate the horrendous number of casualties of homosexual people up to the middle of the 20th Century. That amounts to the persecution and assassination of millions of people for being different over more than a thousand years.

Over the centuries I would not be surprised to discover that more homosexual people have been murdered because of who they are than any other ethnic group or race, maybe even all ethnic groups combined. How is that not a crime against humanity? How can that be thought acceptable; and how dare anyone say our being murdered is justified? We are human too.

I will not waste my time with trying to placate the religious argument of God's plans except to note that they appear to be more the schemes of men, like primitive culture's priests sacrificing one man woman and child after another to appease their gods or make it rain.

Yes, this is the fuel of our anger. When the young are taken at the moment of their greatest vulnerability and intimidated, tortured and then made to sacrifice their own lives by their own hands, it is an abomination to any god who made us, but more over it is destructive of our humanity if we do not do all that we can to stop it by demanding our rights to love and live equally with the rest of humanity.

Yes, this is war, but it is not death to the enemy that we should seek, but their enlightenment. For if man does not seek enlightenment to some degree he will go insane and we see evidence of that in the religious extremists who never question the beliefs in which they have been indoctrinated. Their insanity is prolific, its contagious and it is hell for everyone.

By all means each of us needs to travel their own path, but do not think that you are alone. We as LGBT people cannot be annihilated -yet, and before any genetic manipulation occurs that would eliminate our being part of the human condition we must establish our right to life as equals; indeed as indispensable forms of life, and for the good of human experience.

Does any of this help the discussion? Probably not, unless you are prepared to see the smaller picture alongside the bigger. Not always easy when you perceive danger all around you. As the song says, "Mad World."

The questions here are both philosophical in origin, and psychological in execution. The rhetoric is what we have to clarify.



DesDownunder

Call me naive if you want, but life without trust in the goodness of others would be intolerable.

Religious indoctrination: It gets better, without it.
icon14.gif Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64539 is a reply to message #64532] Thu, 28 October 2010 20:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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You've got that 100% right, as far as I'm concerned, Saben.

And, of course, it isn't only the "middle", but gay activists who happen to have some vaguely Christian, or even (I suppose) vaguely Republican views who are becoming deeply alienated from making common cause (even in the most pressing of causes) because of this.

It doesn't mean that gay people of assorted religions are not doing our bit. It does mean that we are unable to work with those who attack and bully us (sometimes, it seems, in preference to defending the right of all people gay or otherwise to live their own lives according to their own natures and choices) - and that weakens the effectiveness of all of us.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64541 is a reply to message #64532] Thu, 28 October 2010 23:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2010/10/texas-nbc-station-apologizes-for.html

Seems to show how wrong you are.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
icon4.gif Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64548 is a reply to message #64539] Fri, 29 October 2010 04:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

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A family whose son committed suicide reacts to the resignation of an Arkansas school official over anti-gay postings.
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64549 is a reply to message #64548] Fri, 29 October 2010 05:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DesDownunder is currently offline  DesDownunder

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These devastated people have the humanity to ask that people do not attack or hate the man who "disparaged" there son's memory.

Their plea to show compassion to McCance and his family is heart rendering.

That's the type of response that is truly effective in this battle against bigotry.



DesDownunder

Call me naive if you want, but life without trust in the goodness of others would be intolerable.

Religious indoctrination: It gets better, without it.
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64552 is a reply to message #64549] Fri, 29 October 2010 08:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Let us not forget that he was only brought to heel by a temporary outpouring that reflected his hate back at him.

Without this campaign against him he would have continued to shape the future of children in his area.

http://tinyurl.com/34p6o7w was written before he resigned.

Next!



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
I agree with Saben  [message #64553 is a reply to message #64539] Fri, 29 October 2010 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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I agree with Saben, Dartagnon, NW and no doubt others; the way to get accepted is not to fight those who'll never come round but to make allies of those who will. And telling people on our side that they've lost the plot because they don't want to waste enrgy and alientate people by sreaming at them is counter-productive.
Love,
Anthony
Interesting  [message #64554 is a reply to message #64553] Fri, 29 October 2010 08:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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I think you may need to note that picking off bigots one at a time also works.

McCance has been consigned to the trash of history.

Ignoring the bigots means that they feel safe and will inflict their views on other people.

Beating the drum for our rights against these bigots in whatever way is necessary means that the bigots lose.

Fighting, for example, the imbecile McCance brought together a load of right minded people against one fuckwit homophobe bigot. No-one actually gives a flying fuck about converting McCance. We cared about getting rid of the bastard.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Interesting  [message #64555 is a reply to message #64554] Fri, 29 October 2010 11:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DesDownunder is currently offline  DesDownunder

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Demanding acceptance for the homosexual, also means getting the heterosexual to be accepting. Where homophobes are concerned the task is not one of conversion, but of awakening them to the impropriety of their own bigotry. It's not impossible, but it isn't easy, and patience is required, but not to the point of letting them get away with more of their bigotry and it is here that legal enforcement to restrain the anti-homosexual activity is appropriate.

Where religious belief compounds the problem, the homophobe will need counselling of Herculean proportions.

Fortunately there is also a growing awareness of the human rights of LGBT people and they are being accepted by particularly, many young people as well as the thoughtful.

The demise of the homophobes may well depend on their generation becoming extinct, the real problem is to stop them instilling their homophobia in their offspring. You have to be taught to hate, and that is what we should address, along with religious laws that in most other areas of infringement of freedom, have been abandoned, at least in more enlightened sects.

Evolution of human intellect and its maturity is being constrained by these old superstitions as well as the cultural values that have been superseded by intellectual honesty and hopefully, our compassion.



DesDownunder

Call me naive if you want, but life without trust in the goodness of others would be intolerable.

Religious indoctrination: It gets better, without it.
Re: I agree with Saben  [message #64556 is a reply to message #64553] Fri, 29 October 2010 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

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"and there lies the road to to being consigned to second class citizenship or worse." 'Lose the plot' Acam? *snort*

As I told Shem, Anthony, Advocation by protest and strength may not be your forte, but then again this isn't your fight as its not Shem's either is it? You can sit quite comfortably and smugly sipping your bloody tea, your little pinkie at the oh so correct angle out, with the knowledge that you have Equality in Britain.

Must be nice eh Acam? Oh, and before you criticise me, I'd caution you to be VERY careful!

For the rest of you reading this, a week ago I was walking up Connecticut Avenue here in Washington the day before U. S. District Court Judge Virgina Phillips issued her injunction ruling on DADT, when I ran across a sight that made me realise that the war & battles for Full Equality Rights for LGBT persons, although having gained some ground, still in many ways has never changed.

Sitting on a doorstep next to the entrance to the Connecticut @ R street Five Guys Hamburger joint was Dr. Frank Kamney and standing next to him engaged in conversation was former Army Lt. Dan Choi. Here's the thing, Dan is 29 years old and has been the leading vanguard in the battle to repeal DADT and loudly which sometimes has included tactics that Shem, NW, Acam, all say are wrong and ineffective.

Ah, but wait, there's more, Frank, who by the way is in his eighties, yup, you heard me, eighties, has been fighting for Gay rights since the 1950's. Yup, back when just being Gay would have gotten Frank thrown into jail. Oh and he too has often employed the tactics that Shem, NW, and Acam so despise.

Here is the beauty of it, there stood the totality for me, of what waging the fight, the war, the battle for equality is all about. I am also so fortunate as to casually be acquainted with both of these gentlemen so it was a pleasure to see them together.

I'll leave you folks with links to both men and this thought- While it is true that waging the fight for full LGBT Equality may not be your forte, you, the reader, and you, that scared kid wondering about him or even herself, and you the married guy with that big huge secret that can't reveal it, and you, and you, and you......let me tell you this, it can be better and there are people like me, like Tim, and countless others working very hard to achieve 100% equality because WE believe it can and will get better.

Dr. Frank Kamney: [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Kameny ]

Lt. Dan Choi: [http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-10-27/news/bad-lieutenant-dan-choi/ ]

[Updated on: Fri, 29 October 2010 17:29]

Re: I agree with Saben  [message #64558 is a reply to message #64556] Fri, 29 October 2010 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

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How can being rude to me help your cause, Brody? Why waste your time trying to rile me? As the red queen said to Alice "I'm older than you and therefore must know better." I seem to recall you tried that on Saben and it failed, just as it did with Alice.

I have never been rude to you or to Timmy. I don't think it would have helped me to persuade you. I don't understand why you think it helps to persuade me.
Anthony
Re: I agree with Saben  [message #64559 is a reply to message #64558] Fri, 29 October 2010 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brody Levesque is currently offline  Brody Levesque

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My response? You are completely irrelevant:
ir·rel·e·vant   
[ih-rel-uh-vuhnt]
–adjective
1.
not relevant; not applicable or pertinent: (example) His lectures often stray to interesting but irrelevant subjects.
2.
Law . (of evidence) having no probative value upon any issue in the case.
Re: I agree with Saben  [message #64560 is a reply to message #64558] Fri, 29 October 2010 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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You have not persuaded me by politeness either.

All he did was ask if you had lost the plot.

I don't think you have lost the plot at all.

I do wonder, sadly, if you have the slightest idea what the plot is, though. It is impossible to lose the plot if one has never grasped it.

[Updated on: Fri, 29 October 2010 16:56]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64563 is a reply to message #64548] Fri, 29 October 2010 18:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Brody Levesque wrote:
> A family whose son committed suicide reacts to the resignation of an Arkansas school official over anti-gay postings.


Exactly so. And it's a major tragedy.

Which is exactly why it would be good if all LGBTTQQ people and sympathisers REGARDLESS OF POLITICAL OR RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION could work together on this - unfortunately, it doesn't seem possible that such can happen, because of mis-directed "friendly fire" frying gay people who happen to have religious or political views that make them somehow seem as "enemy".

It's as ridiculous to see all Christians, republicans or whatever as anti-gay as it is to see all gay men as camp limp-wristed types: all it does is to greatly undermine their effectiveness in combating bullying and prejudice from within the group they belong to.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: I agree with Saben  [message #64564 is a reply to message #64556] Fri, 29 October 2010 18:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Brody Levesque wrote:

> I'll leave you folks with links to both men and this thought- While it is true that waging the fight for full LGBT Equality may not be your forte, you, the reader, and you, that scared kid wondering about him or even herself, and you the married guy with that big huge secret that can't reveal it, and you, and you, and you......let me tell you this, it can be better and there are people like me, like Tim, and countless others working very hard to achieve 100% equality because WE believe it can and will get better.

As someone who has been a gay activist in one form or another since 1967 and lived in all circumstances openly as a gay man since 1979, I take very great exception to your telling me that there is only one effective way to be an activist - ie by alienating everyone who does not agree with you not only on gay issues but on a whole range of other issues of political correctness.

The proof of the pudding, perhaps, is that we in England (and some other parts of the UK) have very nearly achieved legal equality, and have got a good way towards practical equality, by involving many of those that you so despise. Indeed, the original 1967 Sexual Offences Act would not have passed, were it not for the votes of a number of CofE Bishops in the Upper House.

In short, the way I advocate can be shown to be effective, at least in the UK, and your criticism of those who have helped achieve the present status here (and are working in a number of international areas, at least in some cases, as I know for certain) smacks of envy.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: I agree with Saben  [message #64565 is a reply to message #64559] Fri, 29 October 2010 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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http://forum.iomfats.org/netiquette.html



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: I agree with Saben  [message #64569 is a reply to message #64565] Fri, 29 October 2010 19:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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It is high time that pointed screen name changed to something less obnoxious, please.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64570 is a reply to message #64563] Fri, 29 October 2010 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DesDownunder is currently offline  DesDownunder

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Some things cannot be fought from within the power structure. Nazis against Jews. Ancient Egyptians and the Israelites. Rome and its slaves. The whole moral of the Moses story where Moses could have ascended to be the Pharaoh and then released the children of Israel, is that tyranny has to be confronted from an external force, especially when it is corrupt and ignoring human rights.

However, setting aside the historical myths, the real factor is that too many right wing conservatives are indeed anti-gay and do deserve to be collectively lumped together as bigots and revealed as such. The point here is that regardless of whether the organisation is anti-gay or not, the anti-gay voices are loudest from the religious Right and thus invite condemnation as a group until such time as they indicate they have seen their interpretation of their sacred texts as an affront to human rights.

The real problem here is that the religions have not yet realised that sex is not a gift from God, but something we give to each other, regardless of gender. Belief in God is not the problem, but forcing everyone to adhere to laws of so-called sacred texts is very much the cause of bigotry and ignorance.

Whilst those texts remain the source of motivation for the right wing extremists, then confrontation is unfortunately necessary, but we don't have to be violent or as cruel as they are.

We want to love each other, and we are hated because of our love. Mild, meek, and sensitive as we usually are, does not mean we have take this hatred anymore. If however we desire our birth rights as human beings, then we must be prepared to stand firm against these groups who have infiltrated political parties with a view to making our love illegal once again.

If they succeed, how long do you think it will be before those countries with the freedom to love will once again put us to the question in an Inquisition or bully us back into obscurity and silence? The fight is not local, it is now global, even if we have local battles. This is a war for the human right of equality which is our birthright.

[Updated on: Fri, 29 October 2010 19:13]




DesDownunder

Call me naive if you want, but life without trust in the goodness of others would be intolerable.

Religious indoctrination: It gets better, without it.
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64572 is a reply to message #64570] Fri, 29 October 2010 19:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DesDownunder is currently offline  DesDownunder

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Perhaps I should also add, that as an agnostic, I am not expecting some divinity to set my people free. We are very much responsible for our own release from the bondage of immaturity, whether that immaturity be ours or that of our enemies.



DesDownunder

Call me naive if you want, but life without trust in the goodness of others would be intolerable.

Religious indoctrination: It gets better, without it.
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64573 is a reply to message #64563] Fri, 29 October 2010 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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http://www.365gay.com/opinion/corvino-what-do-we-do-with-evangelicals-who-want-to-help/ which is pretty much self explanatory



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Shedding a little light  [message #64574 is a reply to message #64573] Fri, 29 October 2010 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
DesDownunder is currently offline  DesDownunder

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It's a good article Tim.

However, my view is not one of accepting superstition. As an agnostic I am tolerant of belief in God, provided it does not inhibit intellectual honesty.

Extending a helping hand and accepting any offered is wonderful, but the cost cannot be the validation of ignorance, or on the other hand interference with the right to be ignorant, provided that the ignorance is not demanded of me. The freedom of religion must also mean the freedom from religion, and many people do not understand that.

The first rule of 'do no harm' is not as easy as it would first appear.

The Golden Rule of "doing to others what you would have done to you," has a sibling in the Silver Rule: "Do not do to others what you would not want done to you."

Coming to terms with these rules as a part of our evolving maturity as sentient beings will determine our ability to live with the diversity of our individual life experiences.



DesDownunder

Call me naive if you want, but life without trust in the goodness of others would be intolerable.

Religious indoctrination: It gets better, without it.
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