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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Have you thought about 'straight' as a word?
It came into being as the opposite of 'bent'.
Are you bent?
I am not. I am homosexual. I will no longer oppress myself by allowing the use of the word 'straight' to refer to heterosexuals. They are not the opposite of what I am. I am not bent.
I stand straight and proud as a homosexual man. I am not bent. The heterosexual man is not straight. We are men. That is all.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Actually, I've never minded the use of "straight" to mean "heterosexual". That's probabably because, for me, it carries overtones of "strait-laced" (excessively strict in conduct or morality; puritanical; prudish: ), and so in its own way can be seen as mildly dismissive.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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kiwi
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Likes it here |
Location: New Zealand
Registered: August 2009
Messages: 317
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I see the point about straight-laced, but i definitely agree with timmy. I'm not crooked either.
cheers
Commas matter - 'Party on Dudes' is not the same as 'Party on, Dudes'
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I'm happily "bent"- I'm abnormal, just like lefties, gingers, people with an IQ above 140, etc.
I'm different, but not wrong.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Perhaps you should try to understand self oppression.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Sometimes, being bent allows for easier access... I'm just saying. 
I prefer guys that don't come in a box.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I think I'm always going to support a deconstructive rather than reconstructive approach to identity politics.
The entire current paradigm is [negative and unacceptable word removed. timmy]. I think "abnormal is okay" is a much more effective silver bullet than "gay is normal".
Both lines work against oppression (including self-oppression), but the former is broader and helps work against non-homophobic oppression (I'm thinking of the fat kids, the nerdy kids, the kids with freckles, the ranga kids, the leftie kids as well as the gay kids).
[Updated on: Sun, 13 March 2011 10:51] by Moderator
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I think I'm coming at it from a different angle, too, Timmy.
I understand self-oppression (though I was fortunate to live in a social climate that made it easier for me to come out than you). For a couple of years I was filled with self-loathing because I thought of myself as abnormal.
For me, given my religious background it was not possible to accept myself as normal. And in fact coming to terms with my sexuality I didn't question the abnormality of homosexuality, I just told myself that even if I was abnormal that was okay (I was always the abnormal kid at school anyway- I was too smart to make many friends).
I can understand why you think that telling kids they are "abnormal" might get them stuck on the self-loathing phase, I just think overall we need society to move towards "abnormal is okay".
For most people "normal" means the same thing as "typical" and being gay will likely never be "typical" behaviour. Even in Ancient Greece while having sex with younger males was normal and typical, having an adult same-sex relationship was rare and "abnormal".
When I was 16 you could never have convinced me that it was "normal" to be gay. But I was able to believe that it was okay to be abnormal. Perhaps your experience is the opposite- maybe you wanted to be normal and the only way for you to accept your sexuality was to accept it as normal. I was never a normal kid, though, even before I knew I was gay.
Maybe to help the most people we need both approaches.
I get your point that the term "straight" implies that homosexuality is "bent" (and hence wrong) but people don't usually say "bent" anymore. I think it's more important that "gay" is used as an insult not just towards gay kids but towards any "abnormal" kids.
[Updated on: Sun, 13 March 2011 04:53]
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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That is true of all matters or practical geometry where sex is concerned. Generally those with Peyronies Disease like to have corrective surgery, though.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Just a question (meant non confrontationally so please don't take it that way) but does that mean you take back your previous suggestion that pushing for gay marriage was pushing too far?
I'll reply in more depth tomorrow once I've slept. But what I get out of the manifesto is also the idea that we shouldn't feel the need to conform and be "stepford fags". We should be embracing "nancy queers" and not trying to prove that gays can be butch (as if it's in doubt).
What are your thoughts on those two ideas?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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My prior thoughts on Gay Marriage were tactical, not strategic. They remain the same. By fighting the incorrect tacical battle the war, which deserves to be won, may be lost.
I have no issue with embracing the campest of men and the butchest of women as LGBT provided I may embrace blokeish men and feminine women as LGBT as well. That I find neither of the former to my taste is irrelevant to my desire to include them.
[Updated on: Sun, 13 March 2011 18:39]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I was just thinking about about the self-oppression paragraph. I've heard numerous times (including from people on these forums and possibly even from myself at some stages) things like:
"I'm gay, but why do some gay guys need to act so feminine."
"I wish people wouldn't act so extremely at gay pride parades it really hurts our cause."
I also think about how NAMBLA was originally part of the gay pride movement until it was told to "piss off" (paraphrased, of course!)
Guys with intergenerational attraction are still scorned and forced to stay deep in the closet as a result. Now you've said in the past that you believe age-fixation is more malleable than gender preference and that may be true. But pedarasts have been thrown under the metaphorical bus by the gay liberation movement in its effort to become more PC. Transsexuals have to a degree, as well.
To me this kind of feeds back into my original point, though. If we are trying to normalise "gay" then everything "not gay" remains scorned and it remains acceptable to insult the 'abnormal'. The gay liberation movement should be trying to push for unconditional acceptance, not small pittances like "civil unions, but not marriage".
That's why I have far more problems with the use of "gay" as an insult than I do the use of "straight". Gay not only implies that homosexuality is a bad thing, but it also brings with it all kinds of connotations regarding appropriate behaviour for males. "Gay" as an insult is used broadly, sometimes, but more often than not it's used to refer to the nerdy kids, the non-jocks, the feminine kids, the "abnormal" kids, the ones that are different. The use of terms like gay further entrench the idea that it's not okay to be abnormal.
As for "straight", well it's entrenched now and has become more or less a case of polysemy such that I doubt most people think of the adjective "straight" when using it. I have no problems with favouring "hetero" or even "breeder" (if you want to be a bit more disparaging ;p) if you think straight carries a certain connotation, but I don't think that the way its used does carry much negative baggage towards non-heteros.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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