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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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For the last several months I've been using private messages here to talk to a very quiet and unassuming young man who was outed by a girl he thought to be his friend. The outing hurt him emotionally, though, paradoxically, it has also helped him. Among other things I've been showing him that, now he is out, his thought processes about what matters and what does not matter can change. It is no longer important, if it ever was important, to hide who he is, because folk know who he is. "Yesterday" he felt terrified to tell a boy he finds him attractive. "Today" he has the very normal frisson of nervousness, but he knows he can do it. How? Because he has done it.
What I'd love to happen is for him and folk like him, the ones who just lack the self confidence to make an initial post, to know how safe and easy it is to break the ice here and make their first post, even if it is about the weather 
The reason is because these are the ordinary, normal, gay lads of today, and I so wish they felt able to show the other ordinary, normal, gay lads of today how ordinary and normal it is to be gay.
How do we do it?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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... wondering how I, and by extension other long-time contributors here, might encourage our far less confident visitors to step forward and be heard. Rather ironic this, as it's only been recently that I've been at all hesitant about expressing my views on anything, either here or elsewhere; with this new found reticence stemming not so much from any lack of confidence; but, rather from a newly acquired understanding that at this stage in my life I'm not likely to have any profound effect on the human condition; my having missed that boat likely 40-years ago, or more.
I do know this though; in the distant past "A Place Of Safety" numbered amongst its' followers a youngster named Tom (Surely it can't have been that long ago can it?) whose indomitable spirit gave to us in times of great turmoil several light-hearted contests and games that we enjoyed time and time again, drawing even the most jaded amongst us out of our self-imposed funks at one and the same time as our welcoming numerous, never or otherwise seldom heard from, visitors out from the shadows, each of us wanting to play along with him.
Something along those lines might be just the ticket; we'd need a quiz-master; candidates anyone?
I sincerely hope that Tom has found his calling, pan-flute or otherwise, enjoying the bounty life holds for all of us, and that he so richly deserved.
Warren C. E. Austin
The Gay Deceiver
Toronto, Canada
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I'm not sure that breaking the ice here by making one's first post directly has much to do with seeing gay as being ordinary and normal. I suspect that it's partly because the board at the moment is largely about people expressing views and opinions, and that can be hard to do to start with. So I think Warren is right that things like quizzes, and "the "famous gays" mystery pictures, and suchlike can offer a way in.
As for reassuring people that gay is unremarkable, I'm not sure that's something that this place, set apart as a Place of Safety, is going to be brilliant at: I don't think one can be set apart and everyday at the same time. But more threads on subjects not specifically gay, or about stories here and elsewhere, might be a start. I've been a fully-out gay man for well over 30 years, professionally successful, etc - but making my first post here way back when was still pretty nerve-wracking!
I think that helping people to see gay as normal is more of a real-world thing. That means just being out, normally (for me, at least). But it may also mean recognising the very large number of people in the public eye who are only incidentally gay or lesbian, rather than being known for it. In the UK, that's people like Clare Balding (sports broadcaster), Miriam Margolyes (actor), Paul Gambaccini (DJ/Broadcaster), Rob Halford (lead singer with heavy metal band Judas Priest) ... the international boxer Orlando Cruz ... as well as those who do happen to conform to or exploit a gay stereotype like Grahaeme Norton or Alan Carr. Perhaps that's something we can be more aware of.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I think that fun approach and our general welcoming feel will help. I do know that making any first post is a big step. I also know that folk often wonder why a post sometimes gets no response, though is read widely.
Is it a problem when a post gets no response?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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First posts can be intimidating. Doesn't anyone remember theirs? I won't soon forget it. Several aborted attempts, all that.
I'd like to encourage him to make that post, but in his own time.
There certainly isn't anyone here going to bother him, make fun of him, or ridicule his thoughts or words.
raysstories.com
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I found a site I liked and I lurked on its messageboard for a while. I decided to break the ice. I can't really recall what I posted. I think I asked a question related to the original post. Back then (1996 or 97) there seemed to be far fewer sites that were gay friendly. There were gay sites by the armful, but not friendly ones.
For a while it felt weird having asked a question, but I got some answers. I found I could answer some questions, too. And I felt comfortable enough to come out there as a gay man in a marriage to a woman. Almost everyone there was surprised, though understood, in a way. One person decided I could not be 'really gay' and had no business being there, because the place was, in his limited view, for 'really gay people only'.
There was no help from the moderator. I had to plead my case for being there my self, by myself. So I did. Gay Narrow Minded Boy backed down. As he did, one other gay married man came out too. I was not alone any more. I'd thought I was unique, and it has coloured the way I looked at life. I'm still recovering from the way I had looked at life, but I started to recover.
As time passed I influenced that place until I created my own. It became, at least for a while, a place of quiet friendships where kids could ask and get answers. In the way that these places do it evolved. Regrettably that place evolved into sycophancy for the site owner, and he encouraged it. Those speaking against the new trend were discouraged.
So yes, I remember my first posts, plural, though not what I said. And I remember every time I am here what thse posts made me decided and are still helping me to decide. Some of those things are regarding the character of this forum and the behaviours that I discourage, though tolerate for a while because I believe in showing other folk what it is I am discouraging and how I work to discourage it. The one behaviour I stop on sight is any form of personal abuse. We may criticise another person's behaviour, but we may not abuse the person while doing so. One may tell another soul that his behaviour has been stupid, but one may not call him a stupid person. The least stupid people can behave in very stupid ways, after all. I've been known to do that myself!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I ran into a couple places like that too. What sites I liked ended up getting slow or ignored, or simply closed as the owner/admin got tired of keeping it up or tired of moderating battles. The crappy places got bigger and more active, and it seemed like we were funneled into them.
So few decent, quiet, relaxing places remain. A couple of those mega-forums still exist, but they are mostly bickering and boring as heck. If you didn't lick up the owner/admin's spittle or keep quiet if you didn't agree with anything he/she and his/her sycophants posted.
I'm glad I found this quiet, shaded glen. Good stores, good people, posts worth reading even if I don't have anything to add to it.
And to be frankly honest, I like that there isn't a "Last post wins," "Post your pic," or "One Word at a time story" posts. Any place that has them, has them to keep people posting there.
If you ask me, the idea behind a forum's existence isn't to keep people posting in posts that are meant to keep them posting. The idea of a forum is to have something worth posting about for people to participate in.
raysstories.com
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I view the forum's history as even more important than any activity. I've annoyed folk in the past by saying that the forum is absolutely for those who have not yet posted, perhaps never will post, created by those who do post. Every question posted, even if unanswered, every answer given, lets someone know "I am not alone". I love it when someone new is brave and posts something, however trivial, but I don't grab them and welcome them. I simply read what they say and, if I have something to add, I add it. This does not diminish the benefits those who do post get from posting. Without them there woudl be no forum.
Battles are interesting. I have a 'so far, but no further' rule. It depends if the battle is one of ideas or personality. Battle ideas here until the cows come home, and it has my blessing, provided the battle is in civil language and tone, and that it never, not ever, turns in to a personal attack.
Trolling happens. Generally I am patient with trolls, simply giving them enough rope to hang themselves. I allow them to understand that they are heading towards making a decision to leave, one that I will enforce. Some alter their behaviour, for which I am grateful. Others do not, which I view as a great shame. The energy they spend in trolilng, if spent well, would be a positive asset.
Lickspittles and psycophants are amusing, for a while. I think we have none of them here.
I'm elaborating in the theme to give real encouragement to those who are wondering about the question they need to ask. I would say "ask it" because, even f asked before, you need the answer now, today
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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The Duck
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Getting started |
Registered: October 2012
Messages: 2
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Hi,
My name's Oliver and I'm in love with my best friend, we have an odd relationship, I'm in the closet and he is in complete denial, he even went as far as to get a girlfriend to try and prove that he wasn't gay. My friend is gay and I'm not going to go into detail but it suffices to say "I know". How do I tell him I love him and when should I tell him?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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That is a complex set of circumstances. Somehow it mirrors my own in a weird way. I didn't get it right for me, but I can explain me. That might help you a little.
I was in the closet. I was in love with the boy I thought was my best friend. I fell for him when he and I were 13. I was also in denial about being gay. I got a girlfriend to try to prove I was heterosexual. I knew the boy I adored was gay. It's not that he acted gay, but he copied me in pretty much everything I did. We used to wrestle, play wrestle, at 17 and 18. I read what I saw were all the signs and decided he was gay and loved me back and all we had to do was to be brave enough to tell each other...
What happened was that I never was brave enough to tell him. And, looking back o the signs I read, maybe he liked attention, any attention, and there was nothing gay about it at all. We drifted apart and I spent my life dwelling on what might have been had I only told him. By doing that I damaged myself badly, and now, at 60, I am working to undo the lifetime of emotional harm I have done to myself.
That boy is 61 this month. He is successful, well respected, and married with children. I imagine and hope he is happy and am pretty sure he is heterosexual. The probability is that he is heterosexual and homosexuality was never a part of him because he was just a kid wanting and getting attention, even adoration.
Which brings me back to you and your knowledge that your best friend is gay. Please explain more about that. I knew, too. I was mistaken by my strong wish and need to be loved. So how do you know? What tells you, explicitly, that your best friend is homosexual, or even bisexual?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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How and when are up to you. Anyone who doesn't know the both of you pretty well couldn't even take a reasonable guess.
Your question is almost unanswerable from strangers online. You would already know better than anyone here possibly could.
I think what you want to ask is "Am I ready to tell him?"
Are you?
And before you decide if you are, how sure are you that he is gay? Assumptions seem fact until proven otherwise, otherwise we wouldn't assume at all.
But does it really matter if he is or not? If you are, and you are in love with him, shouldn't he know it, gay or not? If he's so close a friend, it won't matter. If he's so close a friend, he should know anyway. If he's so close a friend, he should have known by now, anyway. If he's so close a friend, why haven't you told him by now?
And that touches on a basic fact that anyone willing to give any kind of answer on this question should know. How old are you, and how old is he? Though it should reasonably be reflected by any considered answer to the question, it sometimes doesn't matter at all. Other pertinent facts that should be part of any reasonable answer would be things like, how long have you known each other, what exactly makes you so sure you 'know' he's gay, how gay is he, how gay are you, how did the girlfriend thing work out, why did he get one, have you and he done anything sexual together, what and how often, what kind of community do you interact within, what are your social situations, do you live with family or alone or at school or other shared quarters, do you have jobs, the list goes on.
How and when should you tell him that you love him?
How about the next time you find yourself wrapped up in his arms? Or vice-versa? Or naked on the floor. Or walking together. Between classes in the hallway at school? Over a burger at Burger King or a coffee at Starbucks? In the elevator on the way to work? Over lunch during your 25th school reunion? Email? Phone? Text? Next family reunion? LOL
I mean, how can we answer? We don't know your situation at all, nor the two of you.
Though I will offer this answer - When you're ready to tell this close friend that you're gay and that you're in love with him. When you're ready and you're sure he's ready to hear it. And you're ready to deal with his reaction.
Until then, it's not time yet.
As for how, well, again, you know best. Gently, is all I can offer.
[Updated on: Tue, 06 November 2012 02:20]
raysstories.com
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Hi Oliver - good to see you posting here.
Unfortunately, I don't think that there are any easy answers to your question, partly because everyone's situation is different and I don't really know much about your own circumstances. But there are a couple of things to think about.
You say that you know your friend is gay. That's a good start - but does he know he's gay? It isn't as silly a question as it sounds ... when I was 15, I spent several pleasant afternoons playing around with a schoolmate my own age. I knew that he was gay, I knew he'd jerked off and had oral sex with at least half a dozen guys in our year. But he didn't know it, or couldn't admit it to himself - it wasn't until we were talking about coming out some thirty years later that he told me he'd only realised that he was gay in his late 20's!
But even if your friend isn't ready to apply the label "gay" (or "bi") to himself, that doesn't mean that a loving relationship is impossible. Sometimes, labels aren't helpful ... what counts is what happens between people, not what we call it.
You say that you are in the closet, and your friend is in denial, and that's fine. But have you ever talked about being gay? There's something about gay partnerships / marriage in the news nearly every week at the moment, so it's not a difficult issue to raise and discuss in general terms, if you want to. If your friend sees you as accepting of same-sex relationships, he may feel able to open up and talk more personally about them. On the other hand, if your friend closes down and seems uncomfortable with the subject, it may be that e's working through issues in his own mind, and it might be better not to push him at the moment.
Whatever you decide to tell him, enjoy your time with him !
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I only realised I was gay when I was 48! You make a good point.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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