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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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The thing is, I never considered it anything other than simple and juvenile bullying, but my being outed is, by today's standards, probably an arrestable offence
But was it really a hate crime? Or was it some fuckwit brat being unpleasantly stupid? I know I considered suicide after it, but that was, surely, because of what was inside me, not him?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Mark
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Location: Earth
Registered: April 2013
Messages: 276
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In a way, I think that all crimes are really hate crimes (or at least crimes a person would commit against another person - not counting things like getting into my car and driving well above the speed limit). After all, if I go and intentionally kill someone, or beat them up, or bully them, I didn't do so because I liked them.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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"Mark wrote on Fri, 30 September 2016 02:56"In a way, I think that all crimes are really hate crimes (or at least crimes a person would commit against another person - not counting things like getting into my car and driving well above the speed limit). After all, if I go and intentionally kill someone, or beat them up, or bully them, I didn't do so because I liked them.
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And yet we have created a definition of a hate crime as being something committed because of a personal attribute the victim has.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Geron Kees
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Location: USA
Registered: February 2016
Messages: 147
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And yet we have created a definition of a hate crime as being something committed because of a personal attribute the victim has.
All crimes are not hate-motivated - just my opinion. Most crimes are the result of necessity or opportunity - or what the perpetrator considers necessity, anyway.
Hate crimes are crimes of intolerance. Crimes resulting from a difference in realities, in thinking, in appreciation of values. And they are, above all, selfish crimes.
The desire (and the ability) to harm someone else because they are different is as old as the race. Making is a distinct crime to do so is a step in the right direction.
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solsticeman
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Registered: November 2012
Messages: 109
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I recently met a most delightful man, tough, fit, tattooed and younger than I. When I realised the disparity in physiques I flinched a bit and tried not to show that I was nervous. In fact he turned out to be a delightful chap.
As a bookish kid I was adopted by rather than simply joined the mining village's judo club, consisting as it did of miners and steelworkers. They greeted me as a sort of bizarre mascot. And then there were the railway carriage of soldiers who rescued me when I had a massive nasal disaster.
So, tough fit young men arent the alarming presence that my nervous disposition suggests.
I have recently come to think that being nervous because someone is younger and fitter is itself a form of racism.
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Mark
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Location: Earth
Registered: April 2013
Messages: 276
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Quote:timmy wrote on Fri, 30 September 2016 00:50
"Mark wrote on Fri, 30 September 2016 02:56"In a way, I think that all crimes are really hate crimes (or at least crimes a person would commit against another person - not counting things like getting into my car and driving well above the speed limit). After all, if I go and intentionally kill someone, or beat them up, or bully them, I didn't do so because I liked them.
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And yet we have created a definition of a hate crime as being something committed because of a personal attribute the victim has.
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As I mentioned before, if I deliberately cause harm to another person, it isn't because I liked them. Does the specific reason why really matter that much? And if the answer is "Yes," then why do some reasons matter more than others? If I beat you up because I think you're having an affair with my wife (and no, I'm not married, but let's just pretend that I am for a moment for the sake of this example), is that less wrong than if I were to beat you up because I found out you're gay? Deliberate assault is still deliberate assault. Saying that one kind of assault is worse than another because of motive is just wrong, in my viewpoint. We already do allow a certain amount of leeway on the subject of intent (i.e. accident ally harming someone vs. deliberate going after them), but for me, trying to specifically designate certain intentional actions as "hate crimes" is saying that certain intentional actions for the same overall crime are more punishable under the law than others (i.e. saying that me assaulting you for having an affair with my wife isn't as bad as me assaulting you for being gay).
I feel that we don't need to start creating new legal terms with new definitions every time something bad happens, just because we're opening up a can of worms if we do; we'd be giving permission for every group out there who's ever been the target of violence to start demanding that they be included in the list of "hate crime victims." (Oh, he attacked you because you supported the other candidate in an election? Hate crime! He attacked you because of road rage? Hate crime! He attacked you because your dog wouldn't stop barking at 3 a.m.? Hate crime!) Creating the concept of "hate crimes" (funny how no one ever talks about "love crimes") gives us a place to start, but where will it end?
With all the recent shootings that have been going on in the U.S. of late (such as the Orlando night club shooting), the topic of gun control has often come up, with talk of creating tougher gun laws. Yet a funny thing is, I've talked with a few people I know who work for various law enforcement agencies, and they say that simply enforcing the gun control laws we've already got would work wonders towards addressing a lot of the perceived problems. I feel the same way about the concept of "hate crimes." Let's start enforcing the laws we've already got and see how that works out before we start running around insisting we need new laws.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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"Mark wrote on Sat, 01 October 2016 02:19"
Quote:I feel the same way about the concept of "hate crimes." Let's start enforcing the laws we've already got and see how that works out before we start running around insisting we need new laws.
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But we need new laws because our politicians love playing to the gallery.
I wonder why killing me because I am gay is worse than killing me because you killed me for a different reason, thus I agree with you.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Geron Kees
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Location: USA
Registered: February 2016
Messages: 147
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-- As a bookish kid I was adopted by rather than simply joined the mining village's judo club, consisting as it did of miners and steelworkers. They greeted me as a sort of bizarre mascot. And then there were the railway carriage of soldiers who rescued me when I had a massive nasal disaster.
I'm sorry for intruding - but I must ask: what exactly is a massive nasal disaster?
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Mark
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Location: Earth
Registered: April 2013
Messages: 276
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Quote:timmy wrote on Sat, 01 October 2016 01:23
"Mark wrote on Sat, 01 October 2016 02:19"
"Quote:"I feel the same way about the concept of "hate crimes." Let's start enforcing the laws we've already got and see how that works out before we start running around insisting we need new laws.
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But we need new laws because our politicians love playing to the gallery.
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Sometimes it does, on the surface, seem like (at the very least) we need laws to force judges to apply laws (and the punishment for those who break them) equally to everyone. I'm sure we could spend a week citing instances where the punishment (if any sort of punishment was even given at all) didn't fit the crime (and not just in cases were someone was targeted as a direct result of their sexual orientation) and not even scratch the surface. (We recently had a case here in the U.S. of a male college student - a member of his college's swim team - who raped a female who attended the same college and, even though he was convicted of the crime, wound up getting a prison sentence of only a few months). Albert Einstein is reported to have once said that common sense isn't all that common, and few places seem to prove that more than when it comes to our lawmakers and judges.
At the same time, it feels that some people want to spend all their time making laws every time someone says they were the victim of a "hate" crime for some specific reason. Bullies in school bully for a variety of reasons, not just because of someone's sexual orientation, and that bullying carries over into society in general if not addressed. But if we write laws to protect people who were bullied because they were a part of the LGBT community, then we have to write laws for those who were bullied because of other reasons - we have to expand hate crime laws to protect those who were bulled because they were perceived as being "retarded" or "nerdy," then we have to include those bullied they weren't considered attractive, and those who were bullied for being weak, and then those who were bullied for having a birth defect, or for not wearing nice clothes, or...
Well, honestly, if we did that, where would it stop?
In short, we can either:
A) Expand the specific definition of a "hate crime" every time some group come forward insisting that they were targeted because they were part of some group that a bully didn't consider socially acceptable, in which case we'd be spending all our time practically doing nothing but expanding the definition of "hate crime," or...
B) Keep it simply by saying that deliberately hurting someone else is wrong, regardless of the reason why the bully did it, and that anyone who deliberately harms another should be punished (and that punishment should be the same across the board - i.e. if I kill somebody because I thought they were having and affair with my wife, I should receive the same punishment as if I killed them for being gay, or if I thought they wronged me in a business transaction, etc.).
Yes, real life doesn't always work out that way, I realize that, but at the same time we should keep in mind that all the laws in the world won't amount to anything useful if they aren't properly enforced in the first place.
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I guess I was a recipient? I still do not know whether it is because I was bad or because I was just targeted?
Life can be like that sometimes.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Quote:Ashdaw wrote on Sun, 23 October 2016 15:55I guess I was a recipient? I still do not know whether it is because I was bad or because I was just targeted?
Life can be like that sometimes.
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From what you have told me over the years of what transpired, while you hated what happened to you, I think you were simply unlucky enough to be available and easy on the eye.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Thanks Tim. 
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