|
|
rbryce
|
 |
Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
|
|
|
An honest question guys,I hope that it will be addressed here in this forum.--No short answers please-I would really like some replies here. rob
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
I fell in love with a beautiful and very feminine girl. I fell for her, not for her body. I fell for her mind, her personality and everything else about her. It was not even an imperfection that she was not male. She was just the person I loved.
I cam to the conclusion over time that gender was simply an accessory. And genitalia is very similar on boys and in girls. It's just the girls wear theirs inside.
I fell for and married the person.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
 |
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
I got married for religious reasons. In the mormon(LDS) faith we are taught that, in order to live with God someday we must be married in the temple.
Because of that, homosexuality is absolutely not recognized by the church; I was told by the church get married. They said it in much more diplomatic terms, but getting married and experiencing vaginal whoopies would cure me of my homosexual tendencies.
Well, it didn't. I guess the church's claim to direct revelation was slightly off that year. Oops.
26 years later, I've 4 children, one very angry wife, and I am still queer. You'll recall from my prevous posts that I got caught by talking in my sleep during nocturnal emissions, having sex with the man of my dreams. It didn't help any to tell my wife that the church counseled me to keep this info from my wife.
Since then, I was railroaded by my nice family oriented church to go thru reparative therapy (and I had not had sex with a man... only wonderful dreams) which was the most damaging experience of my life. I was also told very diplomatically that my 2-3 years in RT was up, and if I wasn't cured I would be subject to excommunication.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
smith
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
|
|
|
Would ex-communication be a bad thing from a faith that picks and chooses who God loves? God created you...God loves you. I truly don't believe that God hangs up on us just because a group of fanatical "church" people do. They need to reboot.
smith
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
excommunication is a bad thing in a mormon family because the children, my children, have been taught that parents who are married in the temple have their families forever. The unspoken message here is that if mom and dad get divorced then the family is forever split. The family doesn't make it to the top, living with god.
excommunication is a bad thing because, if I am excommunicated, I will be barred from participating in milestone family/church events, such as giving grandchildren blessings, confirmations, and I will not be allowed to attend my own children's weddings if they marry in the temple. When male mormons turn 12 they are ordained, and its a big deal, like a bar mitzva (excuse my spelling) and if I'm excommunicated I am not allowed to participate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
e
|
|
On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
|
|
|
I am bisexual. While I prefer males, I am also attracted to females. I tried for years to deny and/or repress the homosexual side of myself. I tried to limit relationships with men to heterosexuals who I was not sexually attracted to(it didn't always work). I dated women. I had relationships with women. But generally these relationships didn't work for very long. Then I happened to find one who I fell in love with. We got married. I am happy, though the sex is not entirely satisfying. We are companions. I simply enjoy being with her.
Think good bhtoughts,
e
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
mihangel
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
|
|
|
Do your older children, the ones who've left home, go along with the temple stuff? And do they know you're gay? And if so, what do they say?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
mihangel
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
|
|
|
Thought I was pure gay, until out of the blue sails this girl. Turns out to be the square hole for my square peg to fit into (see Saben's thread, and slap down those gutter minds ) - first person of that sort I'd ever met, male or female. Love and marriage. Both still thrive. In every other respect I'm still totally gay, in theory though not of course in practice. She understands me, supports me, reads my stories (and one other's), has posted on this board and talked to a few of you. Marriage was the last thing I'd expected, but it was right, and still is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rbryce
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
|
|
|
I hope more respond,as I think this is an important topic.Not so much because I posted,but for many other reasons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rbryce
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
|
|
|
I do believe that there is a site that deals with religious abuse----www.recovery from bible abuse.com I am not sure as to the exact address.The site has some good useful information. rob
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
warren c. e. austin
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: Toronto, Ontario, CANADA
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 247
|
|
|
...but your obvious angst [concerning LDS religious issues] causes me to break that silence.
Brent, I do understand your difficulties. This not withstanding the advice I gave in my earlier response to this thread. Feel free to e-Mail me if you feel I may be of some assistance to you.
Few here may be aware of my "Marriage", for want of a better word, to a Mormon youth some 35-years ago.
To say that our time together were the best years of my life would be an understatement; but, those 12-years were not without it's problems.
Jon, bless him, was the most gentle, loving and compassionate man I've ever come to have the pleasure of knowing. I simply could not, and still do not, believe that I was the man he chose to live out his allotted years on earth with.
His was of a humble family, with a deep and abiding belief in their Church and it's doctrine; living out their lives for generations amidst the wind-swept corn-fields of rural north-western Iowa. I met him whilst we both were attending "La Exposition Universelle et Internationale de Montréal/The Universal and International Exposition at Montréal", otherwise know as Expo'67.
This was his first venture away from home, with him being [at age-15, soon to be turning 16, and I age-16 and some months away from turning 17] under the guidance of his eldest broither Aiden, who at that time was well-placed within the Mormon hierarchy at Salt Lake City, and charged with overseeing the affaires of their Church's contribution to the World's Fair, and their Pavillion. Jon was along for the ride, and with few responsibilites, but avidly taking part in minitering to the needs of the the Fair-goers. It was in this capacity that I first met him, and fell head over heels in love.
Like most outside of the Mormon Faith, I had little, or no knowledge, or understanding, of the implications of what he and I were about to embark upon. He knew, but chose to ignore it. I prefer to believe now that if I had known, I might have had the strength to be able to walk away from him, and hope that he would then be have been able to lead a life of fulfilment within the strictures of his Faith. I would be lying if I said that that would have been the case. I couldn't have, and he would not have let me.
It was he who requested [although it was more of a summons - a demand really] that I attend his family's home to meet his extended family, and of course this was the undoing of it all, and the beginning of a nightmare that ended not with my partner's death some 12-years later, but a further 10 more, when I was confronted with the younger brother Mitchell neither he or I ever knew had existed [he had not been born when Jon and I began living together, and we were never subsequently advised of his birth]; a brother who came looking for answers to why his family would never acknowledge Jon's birth, let alone his death.
Jon was cast from his ancestral home, excommunicated from his Faith, and shunned by all who knew him; to the degree that when we both encountered Aiden one time more, some 10-years later at a MOMA function in New York, other than the slightest of nods towards one another, nothing more passed between them.
Jon's misfortune required that we return home to my family, where I formally come-out to my family, something that had been quietly acknowledged, but never before discussed. My father, like Jon's refused to accept the situation, and were it not for my grandfather, he and I [both of us being underage, with Homosexuality still months away at that time - late 1967 - from being legal in Canada] would have been in a right "pickle". My grandfather intervened and told my father to mind his own business, and to accept the circumstances as they stood and be done with it. My father could not overrule his father, as the eldest living male in our family had historically always held the word that bound us together as a family. In essence my grandfather's word was Law.
My father, to give him credit where credit is due, never again ever broached the subject, even after he assumed the mantle of authority over the entire clan with my grandfather's death some 10-years later, and quickly responded to our need, enrolling Jon in the same parochial school I was then attending [paying all the related expenses] and further financed his university education, as he did mine, when that became necessary. For the first year we lived, when not attending school, in our family home north-east of Montréal in the Laurentians. With the end of our studies at parochial school, Jon and I decided to move out on our own, with my father providing the financial where-with-all to make that possible, and furnishing the services of the family legal-beagles to keep us out of harm's way, as we both still were not of Statutory Legal Age in Canada [age-21 at that time - but now 18, with age of consent for most things being age-13], with him rather wisely foreseeing that we were going to have difficulties.
The first year together, sheltered as we were by the my family, Jon's Faith was simply just something there, and really did not dictate how our lives would be conducted; but once on our own, his need to reaffirm that Faith became stronger to the point that unless something was done, he would simply wither away and die. Whilst we attended the local Temple, he wouldn't go unless I went with him; he couldn't shoulder the embarrassment of his situation alone.
Finally I spoke with my Archbishop [I was raised Roman Catholic] and through the intervention of his offices [I've never known what the Archbishop said to the Elders of Jon's Temple here in Toronto - all I do know it was extremely effective], Jon was once again allowed to take communion in his Church, and this became a turning point in our relationship. With acceptance by his peers, he blossomed as I had never thought possible, and our relationship became even stronger. Jon lived his Faith with each and every breathe he took, waking and otherwise; a more strident example of the power of Faith to heal a soul, I've never again encountered.
Despite his death after nearly 12-years, and the passage of a further 25-years Jon still lives in my heart, my mind and my soul, and there is never a day passes that he is not in my thoughts. Whilst I had informed the family of Jon's death at the time it had occurred, the news was received in silence; I alone being responsible for his interment. It took my encounter with Mitchell, his unknown brother, to provide the healing that was had been so necessary for me. He had been looking for me, he was to tell me for 6-months, and had all but given up, deciding to give the address where he knew we once had lived one more try before throwing in the towel and returning home to Iowa. It was pure chance that I had only days before again taken up residence there, after having decided to return there when the last tenant had vacated the premises. In answering this youth, who was the spitting image of Jon at the very same age, and his questions about who he had been, and what we had meant to one another, I finally was able to accept his passing.
I closing I have only one further thought, and that is to remind you that the Mormon (LDS) Church is not entirely blameless here. They do have the only Christian history of passive acceptance of homosexuality as being the norm, rather than the exception. One only has to recall that until the early 1930's because of the Church's position regarding polygamy, homosexuality was rampant within the Church, and rife especially amongst the youngest males. The discord fostered by this situation, arising as it did out of the Church's policy of widespread acceptance of polygamy, probably had more to do with the Church's abandonment of it, than any Law enforced by the U. S. Government.
Warren C. E. Austin
Toronto, Canada
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
mihangel
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
|
|
|
It sheds light on quite a number of things. And I tip my hat to you. Thanks for sharing it with us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
Well, being raised a Mormon, I think I need to throw in my 2 cents. Firstly I'd like to say the LDS church has been the greatest influnce for good in my life. It has taught me so many things and for that I am thankful. As for my situation within the church, I'm happy to say that the church is slowly learning and growing. When I told my bishop (local church authority) that I was experiencing what the church likes to call "Same Gender Attraction" it was met with nothing other than concern. My bishop didn't condemn me, instead he was worried for me, as he probably knew that my feelings would result in me leaving the church (as they have). His position was that I should stay close to God, through prayer and reading my scriptures and that in time all would be right. He said that there is NOTHING God can't fix, and that given time, even my homosexuality could be overcome, not by myself, but through God's almighty power.
The church however has dealt a lot worse hands to other members in the past though, just like Brent. Electro-shock therapy, suggesting marriage as a cure, and other such techniques have been used in the past, but thankfully it is now realised they don't work. So why does the church strive so hard to keep its members on the "straight and narrow" (excuse the poor pun). Well, essentially, one of the most important things to members of the church is the family, it is said to be the most divine institution on the earth today. Families that are sealed within the temple are said to be bound for time and all eternity, unlike other religions where it is simply to death do you part. The church considers homosexuality to be thwarting that divine plan. The church is also very strict with disciplinary actions against members that violate the sacred laws of morality (gay or straight), as they ridicule the gift of procreation given to us from God. Brent's threat of excommunication is NOT the church's official stance, they believe ALL should be able to come unto God, as long as they are living a relatively "wholesome" life. It is sad that local church authorities have classed thoughts as immoral and controllable.
Brent, now I say to you specifically, please don't lose your testimony of the important things. It sounds like you are becoming very hateful towards the church and while that is understandable, please don't judge the divine gospel on the basis of the way imperfect humans have behaved. I'm no longer living a Mormon life, however I have left the church still holding strong to my testimony of God, my testimony of the Holy Ghost, my testimony of the atonement. I'd like to talk with you more sometime, I think there are things we can share with each other that no-one that hasn't been a member can understand. People see the Latterday Saint church as a rigid institution enforcing military law on its members, this is partially true, I guess, but what people don't understand is why the church does it. I doubt they have ever felt the spirit of God, as a group of Youth gathers around a campfire, bearing innocent testimony of what they have been taught by their parents and now are starting to learn as true themselves. Without experiences like those it is impossible to understand the church. Anyway, Brent, my email is saben4@student.monash.edu and I have AIM and MSN if you wish to communicate using either of those programs, I hope to hear from you.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Or unnatural or sinful or any of those things. Or even something to be concerned about, really!
It's simply love, and love is always a beautiful thing, even if expressed between two same-sexed individuals. Modern technology could soon enable same-sexed partners to have children (though female couples can't get male offspring, for obvious reasons), if we don't put legal restriction barring such developments.
I see nothing wrong with this. Religion is to a large extent nothing but backwards superstitions, the 'christian family ideals' that are so cherished by our theological institutions are nothing but the same ideals cherished since we all lived in stone caves, and quite possibly even long before that.
One can only hope the churches of the world grows up and realizes this, evolves beyond their current invertebrate level so to speak.
-L
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
THANK YOU SO MUCH for telling us all. In a way it was an amazing thing to read I have to say, it really felt as if I was so close to you and your loved one. You described it all with such care and beauty. I understand why he was so dear to you.
I'd like to think there is an afterlife of some kind. I really do. Part of me realizes this is most likely nothing but a whimsical, sentimental dream, but if there is... You two surely deserve to meet there again.
Thank you again my friend. I now know you a little better!
Hugs:
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rbryce
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
|
|
|
how does one live his life when that face and spirit is so burned into ones soul? rob
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rbryce
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
|
|
|
please do what you can to give this soul freedom
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I now consider myself bisexual, if a label must be applied. I had homsexual experiences as a teen, but when I joined the military those experiences were pushed into a deep hidden closet and I acted like any other red-blooded, American, G.I. I went with the buddies to the bars and cat houses because that was what was expected. I finally stayed in on place long enough to actually get to know the girl I was seeing, and we fell in love. I do not regret that, or even think there is something wrong with it. We have since gone our separate ways, and my homosexual tendancies have resurfaced.
I think that we fall in love with people, and whether they are the same sex or the opposite sex, what drives our desire to be together is our love for each other. Sexual activity is just that, and some say, not a necessary part of the relationship. I reserve judgement on that particular belief, but do see merit in its arguments.
Hugs, Charlie
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
warren c. e. austin
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: Toronto, Ontario, CANADA
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 247
|
|
|
... of the Church Jon so loved.
Shem, throughout our years together, I came to appreciate many of the very ideals you hold so dearly, just as Jon had, and I'm certain his family still does.
As I've mentioned on other occasions, in other *posts* - although albeit not quite as explicitly, and more often as not, rather obliquely - Jon and his Faith has had a profound effect on both me and my life, and the manner I have chosen to interact with others. That I may have abandoned any Faith I may have once have had somewhere along the way, has no bearing on my accepting those that continue to enjoy theirs, nor would it ever allow that I even once sit in judgement of another who does.
Warren C. E. Austin
Toronto, Canada
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
warren c. e. austin
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: Toronto, Ontario, CANADA
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 247
|
|
|
... mine own so tortured that I, like another here, attempted suicide chosing the put a brand-new Lotus Europa through its' paces, on a then recently opened stretch of the MacDonald-Cartier Freeway (the Queens Highway No. 401) near Gananoque, Ontario at around 04:00 Hrs, driving into a freshly minted bridge abuttment at nearly 200 Km per hour. The car's marvellous engineering actually saved my life.
That was not to be the end of it either. My mishap put paid to rest a career that I had loved, and was especially good at, requiring years of corrective and plastic surgery. Moreover, I had never again found - until very recently - another who could make my heart soar, my mind sing and my soul quiver in anticipation of anothers' loving embrace.
Two other potential attempts at suicide still awaited me a long the way, the most recent considered this past Christmas-time.
Thankfully, and not-with-standing, the emergence in my life of that other, and certainly without regard to the fact that he doesn't even know I'm alive, I'm still here; here because of my then three, and now two dogs, and the certain fate I knew would be awaiting them should I die precipitously, either by my own hand, or through misadventure. As each had never asked anythoin gother than unconditional love ffom my, I could not ever foresake them, and uncaringly throw my life away without consideration of their own well-being.
My two sons, neither of whom were living at home, and had not done so for a good many years, ironically were never even given a thought, as both have been well provided for under the terms of a family trust. It was Max, my constant companion for nigh on 20-years, his mate Lucky, his for 17, and their son Sam, who first stopped my actions last August, with the mother and son who again doing so just before the New Year.
The problem you see, has not been one of a dirth of suitors, but rather the contrary, with only one other, other than Jon himself, who has ever been able to wrestle me to to the mat, and make me cry "uncle" in supplication.
Warren C. E. Austin
Toronto, Canada
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
trevor
|
 |
Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
|
|
|
Or not very self-aware, at least. She was my first lover and really my only "date" and I do love her. I guess that helped me continue to ignore what I'd never awknowledged or acted upon for 20 more years.
The other guys have said many of my thoughts, but I'm sure there are reverse situations where guys who don't especially appreciate the male form fall in love with a guy and for the most part, sex is sex and if you don't have a hangup about the details, it can be enjoyable. But then of course, it's easier to go along with society's expectations.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
e
|
|
On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
|
|
|
You have left me completely out of breath. You have always maintained that you share nothing in common with the rest of us, but I now know for a fact that it simply isn't true. I also know that sharing this must have been very difficult for you. I wish to thank you for letting us get to know you better. Also, I would like to ask one favor. Give your dogs a big hug for me (and maybe even a kiss).
Think good thoughts,
e
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
e
|
|
On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
|
|
|
Going along with society's expectations is quite difficult. I struggled for many years to fit into the mold society had cast for me. It drove me to the brink of suicide on more than one occasion. I could not be the "me" that society wanted. I could not be the "me" that I was. Had I not met my wife, I might still be struggling with that. In some ways I still am. But at the same time, I think committing myself to a woman has also allowed my homosexual side to grow. I have to face it. I can no longer deny it. I still hide it from the outside world, but I can't hide it from myself anymore. It needs an outlet and I have found ways to provide it with that outlet. I write stories, I fantasize, I come here. I don't know that I would be doing that if I had not married her. It is still a struggle to meet society's expectations, but she makes it much easier even if she doesn't know I'm gay.
Think good thoughts,
e
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
I would have pursued the one with whom I fell in love.
A twin, even identical, mirror or non mirror, is an individual with a personality of his or her own.
I fell for the person. The frame was not even important.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
I have three older children, two are Brigham Young Univ. graduates, both married in the temple (whew! I got to be there) and I have 1.5 grandchildren. Child number three is currently attending BYU-hawaii campus. None of my children know, but hen it eventually comes out, none will be surprized, I don't think, but, you see, they will be overwhelmed with anguish because of the church's teachings: they will eternally be kept away from me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
is a horrific thing, and I am consoled to know that you understand this from personal experience with your partner. Thank you ever so much for breaking the silence. I am so glad that you shared your story. tunafiddle@hotmail.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
Thank you again, Warren, for sharing your story. Especially, for sharing Jon with us. I noticed that you mentioned Jon was from Iowa. I live about 50 miles south of the Iowa-Missouri border. I am reminded of Jon, you, and your love story each time I travel north. Thanks so much for everything. b
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
Warren, I posted something that I wanted you to be sure to come across, and I am computer-challenged, so the post went up in the middle of this "box". So I'm reposting hoping that you'll notice a little message up higher in the "box". Best wishes, and thanks to all my friends during this, um, shitty period of time in my life. Excuse me for swearing. Mormon men don't swear.
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
question? 
I'm much like timmy 
THANX FOR YOUR RESPONSES 
On the issue of "Faith" I have remained largely mute ... 
One goes on living with the greatest of difficulty ... 
The answer is blinglingly simple 