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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives
do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8721] Thu, 27 March 2003 19:26 Go to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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Do parents have the right to religiously (PROGRAM) their children (at any age)..Right now I am so pissed off that I can scream. I truely hope that someone on this board,or any other forum,can anger and give whatever strength that Brent needs to break free of this evil.If nothing else,to bring to public attention what this church (cult) is doing. It sounds like this religion needs its armegedden. rob
icon13.gif Sigh so sad  [message #8725 is a reply to message #8721] Thu, 27 March 2003 20:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thirdfencepost is currently offline  thirdfencepost

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I odn't think that cults or any such large organazations including the church has any right to dictate people lives like that. Then again I guess depending on the church you go to the information you recieve is biased... So I guess it would be the responsibility of the person at any age to decide for themselves what is right and then seperate themselves from it. I guess this is part of the flaw of havin church and state seperated... There is no way to control what really goes on and what is taught. So sad that things end up like that however. I'm all for an aregeddeon.
~Andy



Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
Re: Sigh so sad  [message #8728 is a reply to message #8725] Thu, 27 March 2003 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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Thanks Andy for your input-YOU give me hope. But there are parents out there that feel they have the RIGHT to brainwash their kids--let alone distort truth and fact to whatever their personal concepts are..YOUNG KIDS NEED A BILL OF RIGHTS. rob
Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8738 is a reply to message #8721] Thu, 27 March 2003 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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I'd like to throw around a few definitions:
to program- to predetermine the thinking, behavior, or operations of as if by computer
cult- a system of religious beliefs and ritual.

Using those definitions I'd like to say two things, firslty the Latterday Saint church may be a "cult", however so is every other church and any group that has a religious base and certain actions expected of its adherants. Secondly, the church does not program it's children at all. One of the primary purposes for life on this is earth is knowledge gained by exercising FREE CHOICE. Free agency is the keystone upon which the Mormon church is built, it also just has a strong belief in consequences that come as a result of our choices.

From an early age in the church you are taught the primary principles that it is based upon. You are taught to "choose the right", strive towards perfection and are given a loose definition of what things are "right" and what things are "wrong"; you are taught that the church is the best way to perfection and that by choosing right, you are allowing yourself more choices for the future (how much choice do you have if you become an alcoholic); you are taught about the "priesthood", which is the authority for men on Earth to act in God's name; you are taught about "testimony", testimony in the church is essentially a statement of belief based feeling, you can feel in your heart what is true and what isn't, that is the power of the Holy Ghost (which in essence is an extention of one's conscience) which promotes testimony; you are taught the importance of families, honoring your parents and striving to be a good parent when your time comes; you are taught the importance of serving your fellow man, and are encouraged to serve a mission as dedicating 2 years of your life to the Lord, striving to bring souls unto him is one of the greatest acts of service a man can do; most importantly you are taught love, taught that you should love others, love the Lord and you are taught that regardless of what you do, God will love you. These are but a few of the things that the Mormon church teaches and personally, while there are elements of pressure involved, people constantly remind you that while they'd prefer to see you go a certain way, it is your choice. The church isn't perfect, but I refuse to sit idly by and have something that shaped my life criticised so harshly by people that barely know a portion of its teachings. The church authorities have erred in the past, they are human and while God tells them how to lead the church, as all of us, I'm sure sometimes they don't listen because like us, they aren't perfect. While the church may not have the right ideas regarding homosexuality, I'm thankful to the church, because through it I have learned to search, ponder and pray for answers, and through those steps I have become more comfortable with my sexuality than if I was not religious. Thank you for taking the time to read this and I hope you are starting to understand.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Sigh so sad  [message #8739 is a reply to message #8728] Thu, 27 March 2003 23:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thirdfencepost is currently offline  thirdfencepost

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For many eyars I absoulutly despised my parents I thought they were sooo dumb. I would always ask my mom quesitons baout religion (my dad isnt religios at all) and she would just sorta shrug. I would ask her why she believes something and shed just say she does. The only thing she ever did was make me go to church my whole life... Which I thought was such a drag. But I met my best friend at church so it wanst so abd. But my whole life she never cared if I didn't believe I just had to attend church and give it a hsot. I still don't know if I believe but whenever I decide the only person it will matter to is me. Cuz she doesn't give a damn. So I guess my parents were alright folks after all Smile



Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8740 is a reply to message #8738] Thu, 27 March 2003 23:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PARENTS ARE OBLIGATED BY SACRED TRUST TO TEACH TRUTH TO THEIR CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!! ROB
Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8741 is a reply to message #8738] Thu, 27 March 2003 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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i CONDEM THE MORMON CHURCH....rENAMED THE MORON CHURCH AND FUCK YOU IF THIS PISSES YOU OFF. ROB
Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8743 is a reply to message #8741] Thu, 27 March 2003 23:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thirdfencepost is currently offline  thirdfencepost

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hey... Rob be nice please... I odn't like many church's either but ya can't yell at all of them...
~Andy



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Re: Sigh so sad  [message #8745 is a reply to message #8739] Fri, 28 March 2003 00:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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dearest andy--------------you are the most important person here .GOD bless you. Where thouist go I will follow.Your God will be mine and I would serve thee all thine days. rob
Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8747 is a reply to message #8743] Fri, 28 March 2003 00:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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ok boss i will be nice....sorry about the caps. rob
Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8749 is a reply to message #8747] Fri, 28 March 2003 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thirdfencepost is currently offline  thirdfencepost

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Thank ya very much Smile



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Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8750 is a reply to message #8749] Fri, 28 March 2003 00:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thirdfencepost is currently offline  thirdfencepost

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Do you have a SN btw?



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Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8752 is a reply to message #8750] Fri, 28 March 2003 00:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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rbryce@tbi.net
Isn't that going just a tad too far?....  [message #8753 is a reply to message #8745] Fri, 28 March 2003 00:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ron is currently offline  ron

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We do not remember days...we remember moments.

Cesare Pavese
Re: Isn't that going just a tad too far?....  [message #8758 is a reply to message #8753] Fri, 28 March 2003 00:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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i think not.God is love. what better banner to follow!!!! rob
Your life, your choice, as it should be.  [message #8765 is a reply to message #8739] Fri, 28 March 2003 01:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
charlie is currently offline  charlie

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Sounds like almost every religion in the world.  [message #8768 is a reply to message #8738] Fri, 28 March 2003 01:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
charlie is currently offline  charlie

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The basic tenets of love, family, and service are preached from every pulpit, minaret, and shrine everywhere in the world. I don't think even agnostics or atheists would even argue those morals.

The differences lie in the particulars. How the particular religion teaches and enforces their own order. And probably the most contentious of all, methods of adherence to those basic tenets and acceptance of other approaches.

IMHO

Hugs, Charlie
Please don't bracket everyone together  [message #8770 is a reply to message #8721] Fri, 28 March 2003 01:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mihangel is currently offline  mihangel

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All sects (better word than cults, I think) differ, not only one from the other but within themselves. They all have more moderate and more extreme ministers and officials. We've heard good examples of that from Brent and Shem and Warren.

Parents (mostly) do what they think is best for their kids, with what seem to them the best of motives. Not everyone will agree with those motives, because there are extremes here too. Some (and their churches) try to force the message they believe in down their kids' throats: brainwashing, it has been called. I don't like that, because I don't like extremists of any sort. Nor, for the same reason, do I like the atheist parents who refuse to expose their kids to any religious experience whatever. What's needed, it seems to me, is to give kids the opportunity to make their own minds up. I did that with mine. As it happened, they didn't take to any sect that they came across. Fine: that was their choice. If they had done, equally fine.

Faith is a profoundly personal thing, however misguided it may seem to others. The point surely is that if parents have a strong faith it's not surprising that they try to bring their kids up the same way. Whether kids soak it up, or privately or openly reject it, depends both on their personal need for a faith and on their independence of mind. If they absorb their religious teaching with intelligence, if they find a faith which seems to them to come from God, who is anyone else to complain?

Although (because?) I was made to go to church in my youth, I don't have any religious faith myself. Months ago someone posted a link to an interesting religious questionnaire, and I came out as 100% secular humanist, which fits. But that gives me no right to condemn other people's faiths, even if I don't like them. If I may be immodest enough to point to it, I wrote a gay story wrapped around this whole theme ('Clouds of Glory', on this site).

For the most part, if people believe in creationism or the immaculate conception, it doesn't directly matter to others.
BUT, when some aspect of a faith, like a sect's attitude to gays, comes up against more general ethical or legal issues, then it can be a different ballgame. Which isn't the subject of this particular thread.
icon14.gif And wants to "chat" with you Rob, although ...  [message #8773 is a reply to message #8752] Fri, 28 March 2003 03:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warren c. e. austin is currently offline  warren c. e. austin

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... Lord know why, at age-15, he would want to bothered with curmudgeons like you and I; but I can attest to the fact that he does, and he will, if and only if, you let him; and what a simply marvellous chatterbox he is.

Andy, like many of the other youngsters here will grow on you, as they have on me, taming even the worst of us, and turning us all into veritable "pussy-cats".

So Rob, give it a try, and e-Mail Andy your User I.D. at Yahoo!, Excite, MSN, Lycos or your Screen-name at AOL/AIM/Netscape, and begin the adventure.

After all is said and done Rob, I have you to thank for Andy, and our wonderous conversations most evenings, as it was his desire to have a "Kiss a Frog and Change the World" T-shirt that prompted his e-Mailing me at first, and then later wishing "us" to chat.

Besides which I wouldn't mind having a go at a blather or two with you my own self.

Warren C. E. Austin
Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8787 is a reply to message #8741] Fri, 28 March 2003 07:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Timmy, if you are going to continue to tolerate close-minded people like this here then I'm no longer going to be able to call this a place of safety and hence will have to leave. As has been shown he isn't able to express himself properly enough to make any kind of valid point without resorting to curses, nor is he able to listen and understand what others have to say in defense of their ideas. Basically if he stays I go, I refuse to tolerate blantant idiocy (by idiot I mean someone that is unwilling to learn and try to grow as a person rather than someone uneducated). Being part of a minority does not give people the right to judge the mainstream, gays that discriminate against straight people are just as bad as straights that discriminate against gays, equally non-relgious people that discriminate against and stereotype religious groups are just as bad as small minded christians that refuse to accept things like athiesm as a valid religion. I'm sorry to put you in this position Timmy, but I do now want this place to deteriorate through people like this, like any site I visit, if the quality drops below a certain point, I leave.

And Rob, quite simply, grow up. Or if you want I can act like a 10 year old and then we can both debate using innappropriate grammar, spelling, punctuation and throwing nothing but petty insults. You think your posts show intelligence or make people like you? Sorry, but you're most definately mistaken. Have a good night.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8788 is a reply to message #8740] Fri, 28 March 2003 07:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Truth doesn't exist, sorry. Unless you are God, there is only perception. Mormon parents believe what they are teaching their children IS God's truth as told to prophets through the ages, just like you believe otherwise.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: Sigh so sad  [message #8789 is a reply to message #8739] Fri, 28 March 2003 07:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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I was lucky, my Mum was always willing to talk about religion to me. I really came to understand what it meant to her and why. Being forced to go to church from an early age is something I can relate to, because at that age you think the world is just about fun. Once I got older though, I understood why she thought it was important for me. Once kids get to a certain age though, I do think their parents need to give them a bit of freedom in religion, especially if their kids are able to justify on a religious and not just social level why they don't want to attend church. Still, forcing them will just make them go further away and they will never get a chance to see just why it is so important.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
icon6.gif Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8839 is a reply to message #8787] Sat, 29 March 2003 04:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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I will leave so this should solve your problem. As to my poor spelling and grammer,When I was sentenced to life in a wheelchair I also suffered brain damage with long term memory impairment.I also get angry easily. Truthfully I am not as narrow-minded as you might think although sometimes the way I express myself can be a bit abrasive--its just that I feel strongly about some issues....Your threat to leave this forum and the way you delivered that threat seems childish.Maybe perhaps we have something in common afterall--we act like kids. Your parting shot in telling me to have a nice day and the venom expressed clearly gives all an insight to your charactor. rob
Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8848 is a reply to message #8839] Sat, 29 March 2003 07:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

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Perhaps if you do indeed have problems with agression you shouldn't be visiting a forum where such sensitive issues are dealt with. All I know is that I've dealt with people of a similar nature from a position of forum administration over my years online. There was on particular incident where a guy calling himself Tanis Hood at some forums I was in charge of was acting like a royal jackass so we threatened to ban him, in return he said that it hadn't been him but his brother posting and even went so far as to register a second account, called tanishoodsbrother.

Also Rob, to feel strongly about certain issues is not the same as not listening to valid points people express in regards to those issues. I may not agree with certain ideas people have but at least I realise there is no need for me to insult people or things that are close to them over it. I'm willing to have you stay, but only if you are willing to put in the effort to think before hitting the "Post!" button. Forums are NOT like chat, the good things about forums are that you can post lengthy articles and have enough time to think them out and re-read them to make sure they have the maximum impact. Anyway, that's my point of view, act as you will based on it. I don't feel I've said anything unfair though, but if others do, feel free to let me know. As long as you can justify it, then I take no offense.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8852 is a reply to message #8848] Sat, 29 March 2003 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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I have posted my e-mail address several times on this forum. However sir you have elevated this into something personal by crying on Timmys shoulder(your opening words)and by attacking me directly.This is to let you know that you can e-mail me directly and vent as much as you want.As I have posted before,I tilt (joust) at windmills and windbags,cheered on by angels.
Re: And wants to "chat" with you Rob, although ...  [message #8853 is a reply to message #8773] Sat, 29 March 2003 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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Warren !! I would be delighted and honored if I could trade e-mails with you both rbryce@tbi.net
icon4.gif Re: do religions or CULTS have the right to dictate our lives  [message #8874 is a reply to message #8788] Sat, 29 March 2003 16:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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I do very much respect your opinions as these opinions are the lifeblood of this forum.In my attempt to formulate what I consider valid concepts,I removed myself some distance from that child and began to view what was happening.What I observed was simple intellectual rape guised in the robes of a church.I would suppose that some would sugar coat this term.I am not so inclined and make no bones about condemming those that would support such practices.Any sect or religion that would subvert the human spirit with convoluted thoughts or dire consequences such as SHUNNING or EXCOMMUNICATION is a threat.THE BRAINWASHING of young children is equally disgusting. r
icon13.gif Shem and Rob - enough is enough!  [message #8875 is a reply to message #8852] Sat, 29 March 2003 18:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warren c. e. austin is currently offline  warren c. e. austin

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Both you Rob, and I, were censured over your "war-mongering" *post* of a week or more ago, and my angry retort to it, and my having tasked you about your prior behaviour. You have apologized, I have accepted. Now let's move on from there.

It would appear that 15-year old Andy needed to chastise you for your aggression when reponding to others when they have replied to your original question with this thread (a thread which you originated - and quite thoughtfully I had felt) further above. You have responded, and agreed.

Shem, if you had read Andy's request, and Rob's reply, none of this would porve to have been necessary.

Rob, I want that IM (Instant Messenger) User I.D., or Screen-name, and so does Andy, and probably a few others too! It will not matter to most of us which service you use.

Warren C. E. Austin
Toronto, Canada
Re: Shem and Rob - enough is enough!  [message #8877 is a reply to message #8875] Sat, 29 March 2003 19:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thirdfencepost is currently offline  thirdfencepost

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Rob, why wont you reply to my email?
~Andy



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Re: Shem and Rob - enough is enough!  [message #8894 is a reply to message #8877] Sat, 29 March 2003 20:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rbryce is currently offline  rbryce

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Andy I only have outlook express for e-mail.I have recieved your e-mails,but dont know how to e-mail you .I am not too computer smart.please reply-giving me your e-mail address. rob
Re: Shem and Rob - enough is enough!  [message #8897 is a reply to message #8894] Sat, 29 March 2003 21:06 Go to previous message
thirdfencepost is currently offline  thirdfencepost

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darkwingedducks@yahoo.com



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