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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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How do religous sects develope enough momentum to blindly sweep basically good people into a storm of social prejudices?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I guess what gives religion a power that other social groups don't have is the fact that religion claims to be from a divine omnipotent source. Leaders of religion are able to discriminate and then as long as they can back it up with mistranslated, misinterpretted pieces of scripture, then people believe it is from God and feel that THEIR prejudice is justified as well.
I believe people are inclined to act like animals, unless they choose otherwise, the "default" decision, is to follow what comes naturally and naturally humans want to reach the top, by crushing others underfoot, they want the best for themselves, their family and their kind. If something can provide a motivation for following these base instincts then they are quite willing to embrace it. Of course, really religion should be about putting off these natural instincts and learning to control them, it is just abused by weak willed humans.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Anyone can gain power, authority, and influence over others who have needs to be fulfilled. Most of us have such needs and can be vulnerable. Nearly everyone has a basic need to succeed and a need to blame someone or something when we fail. Persons who make us feel better by placing blame elsewhere often gain our trust and confidence. They take the negative feelings we have towards ourselves and turn them outward towards others. They take unfocused anger or hatred and focuse it against a particular issue, group, or person. They stir it up and turn it into passion. They surround a person with those who are of like mind and can reinforce the negativity. This also gives a new "convert" a sense of belonging and community, no matter how perverted that community may be.
When religion can be added into the mix, it can become even more powerful. Religion itself is powerful because it fulfills needs for community, devine and moral authority. It helps define our world and ourselves. It brings meaning to life and gives it a purpose. Voltaire once said "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him." People need something to believe in and the greater that something, the more comfort it provides.
Religion takes the responsibility for moral authority away from Man and places it in the lap of a Supreme Being. If that being is seen as being greater than Man, Man must listen. If Man sets his own rules, morality has no ultimate authority. But if the rules are set by an omnipotent being, Man has no business challenging that morality. Man can then live in the comfort of knowing that while he is fallible, there is a greater being (a greater good) that is not. Religion fills the need for stability.
However, God (if God does exist) does not communicate clearly. He does not reveal His wishes to everyone. Instead, He seems to communicate directly with a select few "religious" leaders. They interpret His "word" and give direction to the masses. Unfortunately, some of those leaders are corrupt. They interpret and pervert the "word of God" to suit their own needs. This is when religion goes astay. A corrupt but charismatic leader can easily corrupt many people and can turn otherwise nice people into bigots full of hatred.
I'm not really sure that makes sense, but I tried.
Think good thoughts,
e
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Now, we have to understand how religions came about. Marc as a philosopher is likely to have the most authoratitve sources here.
But, as a generalisation, a religion formed based around a fear of natural phenomena as a way of appeasing the huge and very real power that caused those phenomena. Note that I am neither saying "there is a god" nor "there is not a god".
Astute people noticed that they could control people if they were seen as being able to influence that power in some manner. Odd practices of appeasement arrived. Ritual sacrifices, human sacrifices (a way of getting rid of an opponent?).
Gradually the embryo religions became rule oriented, and created structures which either looked as though they were benign or genuinely were (or became) benign.
Deities were named (or specifically not named, as I think Judaism teaches?). Pantheism, monotheism and polytheism (there presumably are other fomrs?) formed, and people started to believe in what their religious leaders told them.
The religious leader was the one in charge. The holy books were only given to the leaders and only they could read them. This created power. Absolutepower, over the way their people could live and die.
Yes, I know this is simplistic.
Established sects split into sub sects with different rules, or prospered alone, or withered and died. Charismatic leaders took control and created their sect in the way they chose. And some religions were created by "get rich quick" merchants like L Ron Hubbard and his money making scheme called "The Church of Scientology".
People move towards religion because of a deep experience in their lives. Depending on the religion the sect either takes control, or provides help. In some cases the provision of help is seen by others to be taking control.
As more people move towards a sect it takes power form its massed congregants and takes on a life of its own. It become effetcivbely a tribal marking, separating me form you and showing me why i am better than you, UNLESS you join me. "It's my ball, and I am taking it home!" is quite relevant here.
Much too long a post
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I once posed a question to a class and then left them to come to a collective conclusion.
It was.... How did the concept of a "god" come into being.
The answer, after much debate was rather poetic....
It was.... Thousands of years ago, when pre-man roamed the earth there was a moment in their development when one of them were finally able to stand fully erect. This posture gave him the ability to stand and stretch, looking at the stars and seeing the bright points of light above him he reached to try this new tasty food. Not being able to grasp hold of the stars to sate his hunger, he came upon the notion that it must be food for an entity greater than himself, something capable of devouring the stars.... The Sun....
Hence the sun, moon, and stars as well as their cycles, their rhythm of passage through the "heavens" developed into a basic form of worship.
The concept of death, along with the ritualistic treatment of the dead in the form of the burial rite spawned the notion of "what happens after death". This idea, in and of itself has been food for debate throughout history and will continue to be.
As one would expect, this area of thought could be expanded to include every group of organized worshipers known today.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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As for mormons, it is well documented in "One Nation Under Gods"(forgot the author's name) that after the mormons isolated themselves in Utah, folks who tried to quietly leave and go back to civilization were tracked down and killed. Thank goodness for the transcontinental railroad. Prior to that there was virtually no escape.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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Very well put and very informative.Where I have a problem is when some sects or religions mentally and spiritually rape our young people.This is why I posted.Actually do parents have the right to subject or expose their children to such abuse?
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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With reguard to parental dictates pertaining to religion, there are virtually no statutes governing how a church administers its policies reguarding children, unless there is clear evidence of real, palpable physical abuse.
The constitutional rights to/of separation of church and state and the freedom of religion preclude litigous introspection.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Rob, I'm having a real issue with your choice of words in many of your posts. I know you express your opinions passionately, but to use the word "rape" repeatedly in this context is a bit over the top, and offends people who do believe that parents and the church both have the responsibility to teach children what they believe to be the truth. In fact, parents are legally bound to do what's best for children.
Please understand that conservative and/or religious people could just as easily say such things about you if you express your views to young people. "Brainwashing" them that sex outside marriage or legal bounds is okay, teaching them that "unnatural" sex IS natural. It's all simply a matter of perspective and opinion.
I don't disagree so much with your ideas, just that you consistently use offensively strong "judgemental" words to express your opinions.
It's hard for me to keep reading, and yet what you say is often worth reading. What should I (and others) do?
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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just sprinkle a little sugar here and there.You got to admit that when one of our posters described in detail some of the abuses of his church and that his wife was lending support to this abuse,coupled with the crap that his youngest son might be going through--any sane and decent man would see red. and when a certain nameless member seemed to support this church I really blew my stack.I have read most of this persons posts,in one he describes people as being weak and close minded shallow.I responded.I just wish I had a cyber hammer.But you are right about my caustic nature.I guess the truth will tell.The person clearly demonstrated his character. rob PS I do hope that we all carry Brent in our hearts he does need our love and support.
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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How 'bout some whipped cream and a cherry on top? Agreed - there are those who carry things to the extreme in every group.
Thanks for remembering Brent. Maybe we can be his "Church of the timmies or something."
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Brent has been hurt by the leaders of the church, so of course his response towards it is not going to be favourable. What I've been trying to point out is that there are two sides to every story and that the church feels justified in its actions and does have a valid point of view. You fail to see that people ALWAYS have a motivation for their actions and in the vast majority of cases think what they are doing is right. I was never trying to belittle what Brent is going through- what happened to him was wrong. But I was pointing out that the Mormon church should not be judged because of its actions. To which you said "Fuck you".
Now, due to the nature of these forums, that personal insult was not dealt with and now things have escalated and will continue to escalate unless you SHUT THE FUCK UP. Most of today I've been controlling myself and not posting to things that I found to be a personal affront and an insult to my character, why can't you just drop it! You don't like me, I don't like you, I don't want to take this off the board because I don't want anything to do with you. My other public posts have merely been in the hope that my actions would seem justified to other people who's opinions I do give a damn about. End of story. Please drop it now, as I've been trying to, otherwise it will continue, nothing will be resolved and no-one will be to enjoy this place as they should.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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With all proper and due respect why shouldnt the Morman church be judged by its actions.Question two is what social value does this church serve? rob
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Well, that was a decent enough question, but if you really want a response, take it off board, my email is saben4@student.monash.edu I'm not participating in religion discussion with you here.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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thank you for the site info--good story rob
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I've been reading and soaking up your thoughts and concerns. I sure appreciate your posts. So nice to know y'all are out there.
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Excuse me 
Umkay 
Re: the threat of death sure helps 