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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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OK, now I have been away, perforce. Back occasionally for moments at a time.
Some things are frankly out of hand.
One of you asked along the lines of "Why do you allow closed minded people in here?"
The asnwer is simple. No-one here is closed minded unless they prove it by never in their lives ever taking a new opinion on board. Everyone so far has learnt at least one thing by being here. But they all have points of view which have major or minor segments which are incompatible.
And that is good, as long as they also do not get strident or insisting on their viewpoint holding sway over everyone else's.
So, I will not be banning anyone, asking anyone to leave, nor indeed asking anyone who wishes to leave to stay. I have only ever banned persistent spammers. I don't expect to alter that policy.
What I asl of you all, without exception, is to put your points with less emotion, when a disagreement looms, and even agree to differ.
Or, to put it another way: "Play nice!"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Well, my point was purely that people who don't even seem to listen to a point of view and seem to prove that point by replying to a well thought out post with nothing other than flames should really think twice about being in such a sensitive environment. If it were my board I probably would ban someone like that, however I understand that you have different policies in managing your board and I'm sorry for not respecting that, earlier. I guess while I tend to think of myself as tolerant of most things, but I still have a ways to go. Next time I will take some of my own advice and think more before posting, instead letting an offensive remark trigger a negative reaction. I withdraw all comments I made and if you see fit to delete them then go ahead. Let's hope these squabbles can come to an end.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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tim...of usa
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Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
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simple point saben...by you banning some one you yourself become close minded.
peace
tim...of USA
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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When someone says...."I don't mean to offend, insult or deride but.....here's a thought" I have to assume that it is exactly what the person thinks.
I am a pure to the bone southern baptist and could have discussed the cultism and the rigidity of churches.
I am an American and could discuss the lack of quality education and the 'sheltered' lives we supposedly live.
I simply do not wish to offend, insult or deride anyone else's preconceptions of who I am.
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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I agree ten thousand percent That is why I politely asked the gentleman to (take it off the board) and contact me by private e-mail out of respect for the other members of this forum.Actually if truth be told,I really do not have an issue that has to be forced on others as my opinions are not all that important. I must say that I have learned a great deal from this forum.The humor and honest love impresses me greatly. rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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On balance all our idiocies, mine included, may remain on display unless I am asked very specifically to remove something by the author.
It is a part of learning.
Your fulsome apology is more than sufficient. I cannto speak for the other party(ies?0 involved, but I am sure they will also retract any unpleasantness, and both accept yours and apologise for their own where necessary.
Now it is time to move ahead. A little bloody, a little pride dented, and some things to think through on all sides
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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It says up above "This place thrives on discussions, even hugely controversial ones." If nobody said anything that anyone else might just conceivably take as offensive, insulting or derisive, then the place would be barren and bland and not worth visiting. What is not welcome (to me, anyway) is posts that are deliberately insulting or offensive. It's not so much what's said as how it's said.
Anyway, don't I recall a number of threads in the past about American education and the like to which a certain smith has contributed? And most usefully, too. Don't you want the board to carry more than Trekkie threads? No - before you blow up - no offence, insult or derision whatever is intended by that! Truly!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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You have hit the nailonthe head. It is imtemperate language that kills places such as this, not the content of the discussion. In addition I use the word "discussion" very purposefully. I refuse to use "debate" since it implies winners and losers.
I also want to mention the primary purpose, which is to provide succour to those in pain. We need to ensure that all feel welcome.
Additionally there are some who feel neglected here. They post and "we" do not reply. That needs to change a little, I think.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I will once again say a plea to all of you on behalf of Timmy.
PLEASE don't get me wrong, I DO NOT speak for timmy. He is more than capable of doing that better than I can. I merely want to say to all of you my thoughts on "playing nice."
1. This is not a difficult thing to do.
2. Showing respect for someone else's point of view shows others that you are smarter than those who resort to sarcasm or name calling to hide the truth of their point or it's lack of substance.
3. It shows Timmy just a little bit of the respect he deserves.
4. It would make me happy too (not so important, but I said it anyway).
5. You are leading by example for those who also disagree, or disagree with you. You are then less likely to have to take that same type of abuse.
6. IT IS THE RULES HERE AND THEY ARE NOT TOUGH AT ALL!!
7. Easy one: Do unto others as you would have them done unto you.
8. Your point of view retains a bit more credibility when you show respect.
9. Many of us here learn from each other, do you want them to learn bad behavior?
10. Important and controversial topics are the ones most worthy of honest and intelligent debate. Please don't take that away from us.
OK, enough of my ranting. I do like each of your views: From my Baptist friend, to Muslims, Jews, Catholics.... and so on. We each have a right to express our spiritual lives the way we see fit. Respect your neighbors right to that as well and the world will be a better place.
In the words of the wise philosopher Madonna (hehe)
Respect yourself.
Love to all,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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You guys ahve all been very nice to me. Why can't you be nice to each other? I mean seriously I believe that I am the youngest on here closely followed by smith... We get along jsut fine  Can't you guys try to .... If you're gonna say somethign super mean how about not saying it.. Cuz all you do is argue with each other. That said onto the good stuff..
For everyone who knows me knew that i had long hair hehe. Well I just got it cut and it looks usper cool. For once the fact that my hair curls at the end is a good things and I really like it
~Andy
Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
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I always like new ideas, or soemone I can learn and grow from.
The quality of people here is far above average and anyone here has the right to speak (even those of you who remain silent).
So to the negelted and silent few(or anyone else here):
You have access to my e-mail and I would love to hear from you if you are afraid to post here, or just want to chat. I am very busy lately but I will try to respond as soon as possible.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Hey Andy,
Always good to have a "good hair day" hehe
Hugs
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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No Message Body
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I know pople also want to see peace break out. Plesase help that by not pouring fuel on the fires
I am not readng the posts about it. I am just asking us to return to our business here, please. In civility "on stage" and "behind the scenes"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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No Message Body
Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What about when a post or reply is carefully thought out, precisely worded to come directly to a fine point, and it is thought of as being abusively harsh.
Even when it is impossible for a person to buffer it with fluff or totally off the point chatter.
It is hurtful to be doing ones best, and yet be constantly rebuked, ignored or abused for it.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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Even the most discordant topic can be phrased in such a way that the topic is the thing discussed, and the manner of the discussion is not an issue.
Not fluff, not off the point chatter. A simple phraseology, expressed well, and with vehemence is the key to getting such a point across.
I think, again, it is the difference between the techniques of debate, where points are won and lost, and of discussion, where we may talk quietlyand calm;ly about something, even a very challenging thing, without offending by our words.
Make no mistake, though. The topic itself may upset people. The effort that is required is to seek to present such a topic in a manner where the presentation does not add to the upset.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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Aren't you all glad that I have not been participating in the discussions for a coupla days? Not having had the time I return and find the threads far too long for me to be able to find the patience to sort things out (I am a Steve of little brain...)
But here's one thing that might be pertinent to several of those threads: Kevin wrote: "Easy one: Do unto others as you would have them done unto you." Without wishing to stir up a hornet's nest I think that this is the root of most of the wrongs that well-meaning people (including members of churches etc) do to other people. I think that this recomendation goes back to the Founder of Christianity. There was a great Jewish sage who was his elder contemporary who said the exact opposite: "Never do to someone else something that you would not like them to do to you: that is the whole of God's law." If everyone were to observe this rule our societies would be much nicer places to live in.
If you have not worked out the difference between the two statements, here is the way George Bernard Shaw put it: "Do not do unto others as you would have them do unto you: your tastes may not be the same."
And here's another hug for Kevin.
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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To my limited intelligence it seems that your sage is saying exactly the same thing as Jesus, not the opposite. Two negatives make a positive. As for GBS, he was as usual just being provocative ...
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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The difference is that there are some things that people would want done to them that aren't universal. However if you stick to NOT doing things you WOULDN'T want done, it is a bit of a safer bet.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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ye gods. I must re-read before posting. I know I typed "without"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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Never type to someone else words you would not like typed to you.
This is a complex place we call our internet "home". We can't see each other's eyes; we haven't walked in each other's shoes.We all come here for our own reasons. If we feel frustration or anger or old pain, then we may type to others words we really do want typed to us, to keep fueling the fire in ourselves.
There's a huge difference between Steve's two statements and they correlate with Marc's post asking how many times do we start to reply and then delete. How many times have you read a post and wanted go find that person and hug them very tight? How many times have you wanted to whack them up the side of the head knowing that post was going to hurt someone else or inadvertently hurt you? I think maybe what we forget is that the person we are responding to directly with the capitalized curses or the incorrect usage of violent verbs is not the only person reading the reply and what is being said may trigger unwanted memories or thoughts.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is, words, once spoken, can never be taken back. Measure your words or they may live to haunt you.
Peace and a {{hug}} to Kevvy for trying
smith
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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Mihangel, let me give a decidedly non-contemporary example of the difference (so as to avoid guilt feelings etc). If, in the middle ages, I were a monk serving the Inquisition I would be really convinced that it is in your best interests to burn you to a cinder at the stake in order to save your soul from the perdition that your situation surely entails (in my view). The Jewish sage, Hillel, says, "Don't do it! He will not appreciate you doing that if he does not share your view!"
So it's not "I must do to others what I would like them to do to me", but rather "I must NOT do to others what I would NOT like them to do to me" and no harm's done either way. Vive la difference!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Every post or reply of a serious nature has the potential to hurt someone. If we are to reign in our thoughts or comments in the hopes of not hurting anyones feelings then we might as just stare at a blank page.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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The first topic is the subject matter. That may hurt.
The second is the words used. They may be crafted not to add to any hurt that the topic causes.
A difficult message may be delivered well. The converse is that some easy messages are delivered badly.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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And getting wires crossed too? What I didn't understand was Steve saying that Hillel's message was the exact opposite of Jesus's. The exact opposite would be "Do unto others what you would NOT like them to do to you". Which seemed ridiculous.
smith says there's a huge difference between the two messages. I can't see that. To me, they're the same but with a different slant. Like "I agree" is nearly (but not quite) the same as "I don't disagree". Or (in Steve's analogy from the inquisition, and indeed in posts on the board) "be tolerant" is effectively saying the same as "don't be intolerant".
If we all followed to the letter smith's rule about not posting things that might dredge up somebody's unhappy thoughts or memories (and I know exactly what he means), nobody would ever dare say anything worth while; as Marc points out, and as I've pointed out more than once. What's important is considering what it is you're saying and how you say it. Suppose you have a matter to raise which you think is interesting or even important. If you're aware that it might dredge up somebody's unhappy thoughts or memories, you phrase it so as to minimise that risk. And of course, for all you know, you may dredge up someobody's unhappy thoughts that you can't possibly know about. Unless it's a Trekkie-style thing, there's bound to be a risk in posting anything.
smith seems to be saying - at least if you take his words to their logical conclusion - that if there's any risk, don't post, however much thought you've put into the phrasing. If we did that, the board would fold.
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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smith is not saying don't say what you want to......smith is saying to watch HOW you say it. smith will not try to say anything else............
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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In a single sentence which probably sums up quite a lot of these recent happenings, "we need a Message Board with an edit button"... If you are at all interested in moving to a different system I'd be happy to set something up, timmy, but it is your house, it is your call if you want to put a new room in the attic. I have thought for a while though that perhaps a more modern style message board such as PHPBB2 would be an investment and perhaps others share my view. I'm sure you've got reasons for staying with this though, but I just thought I'd raise the suggestion.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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We have had the discussion about edit buttons quite often.
An edit button allows a poster to post somethng. see replies, and change the original meaning to make the replies look absurd.
This software has an edit facility. We turned it off on purpose. It was considered very seriously, but people would use it to make more than "typing changes".
We are all capable of putting a corrective post out. That leaves a true audit trail of what has taken place.
Kind as your offer is, I will decline it. We may move this board to Mysql at some point, but that is really work for work's sake. We took a long time to select the software, imperfect as it is, and to make it look the way we want. It aint broke, so it doesn't need fixing at present
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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You wrote "WHAT is being said may trigger unwanted memories or thoughts". Not "HOW it is being said." OK, you said that too, but not in that sentence. If you MEANT to write "how it is being said," yes, fully agreed. Though (having removed the reference to you) I still stand by the rest of my comments.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But what if one does his best and it is still hurtful?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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then one has done one's very best. But one must also look at it as a learning experience. You will recall from your teaching days that a student may do his best "this time" and improve on it "next time". So it is with all things, I think. We learn and improve.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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As with all things.....
But when one does ones best and then is continually rebuked for it.....
Your volly.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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In posts and replies meanings and intentions can get muddled. Sometimes it is hard to come up with "just the right word" so as to float above everyones feelings.
I understood the general gyst of smiths reply. Taking into account his age and range of experience it wasn't hard to garner his meaning.
But, I also understood exactly where Mihangel was coming from as well. What if a person came upon the reply out of hand? It might be very hard to understand what really was meant.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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Thank you Timmy for your insight and wisdom. I do not like bullies and I dont think anyone else does either.I really am greatful for your tolorance (sp).I know that this should be a safe place to express ones views with the respect due others. Please let me make my position quite clear.I detest abuse in any form and will speak out.I further detest any entity that supports such abuse and gives succor to such agency.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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However, to be a true rebuke it requires a depth of understanding by the rebuker of the rebuked. It may be that such understanding is missing.
Alternatively it may be that words that left the person "speaking" are perceived differently by the person "hearing" them from the way they were meant when "spoken".
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I think all here agree with you. We seem to be having a very odd pseudo-fight on the board at the moment, where people are actually arguing much the same thing from different vantage points.
This place is safe. It gives the safety to espress many things. However I do get frustrated when things turn to vitriol. I am pointing no fingers at anyone here. Indeed I have not even interceded behind the scenes.
I htink no-one here is bullying. Opnions are being expressed with "enthusiasm" and at least one person is feeling rebuked, I think.
It is time to mend all fences. One can never have too many friends.
I suspect that emotions are heightened at present by the situation in Iraq. I express no opinion about that comnflict now, nor will I particularly welcome any unless prayers for all who are hurting and have list loved ones and friends. But I think it alters the way people perceive each other.
So, as I have tried before, let us ALL drop these cudgels. let us accept that, as at the top of the board there are no absolutes, and let us get on with living. This is th einternet. It is like the real world, but somehow not.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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If the hurt was not inflicted intentionally, the apology should be accepted. If it isn't, simply know that you have done your best and try to do better next time.
While smith's statement that "words once spoken cannot be taken back" is quite true, those words can be given back. If the apology is accepted the effect is just that.
Think good thoughts,
e
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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In the example of the monk, I think, that if his belief holds true that burning someone at the stake would save them from perdition, he WOULD want someone to do the same for him. So even if he did not do something to another that he would not want done to him, he would still burn the guy because he WOULD want this done to himself.
Think good thoughts,
e
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Disagreements, etc etc etc 
Playing Nice 
Re: Playing Nice 
I tend not to delete posts or threads if it can be avoided 
The fight, such as it was, is over. Please respect that. 
And Amen !! 
Hey, J, out of your own mouth! 