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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Is this place any more safe than any other?
If it is, then what makes it so?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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sometimes unconditional love is hard to understand but it is here and that is our strength.just as in any other household,toes will get stepped on and some will try to put shaving cream in our BROTHERS shoes,but what the heck! rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I never mentioned love, conditional or otherwise.
I was asking if this place is truly safe. If it is, then how/why?
Here there is indeed friendship, but that doesn't imply being safe. You use the term "brothers".... Sorry I don't see that either. All I see are casual aquaintances at best.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739
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By design and intent this place is safe. That does not make it so. By design a swimming pool is safe too. But each has its dangers.
Some of those dangers are there because design can minimise them but not eliminate them. The same may be said about lifeguards minimising danger.
But it is the clientele which makes it safe or unsafe. That means you, and me and the others. So, to turn this around, "Are you safe for those who are here?" I do not mean this to be addressed to Marc, it is general; nor does it need an answer. After all, if you are here as am predator it is unlikely that you will say so.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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tim...of usa
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Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
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so totally agree with you on the "friend" part
all that is here is a bunch of 'cyber' names i do not take the make believe world of anything cyber as being real.
we are told what we want to hear and made to feel "safe" but to what ends?
my biggest problem is i am to real for most people to deal with on a regular basis, i dont pull punches and i say what is on my mind. do i cyber piss people off? hell yes do i care ? hell no.
if any one takes cyebr land as being REAL they truly need to get a life.
just my humble opinion
peace
tim..of USA
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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this place is as safe as we make it. It is not perfect. We find people here who we like and trust. We find people here who we dislike and won't trust. We have disagreements. We have arguements. Sometimes we hurt people. Sometimes we get hurt. That is true here. That is true anywhere in life.
What makes this place safer than most is that most of us have a sense of community and we do try to support each other. We constantly remind each other that we want this to be a safe place. We encourage each other to share our opinions, thoughts, and feelings. Many of us do. When we have disagreements, we hash them out, then move on. Sometimes that takes longer than it should, but it eventually happens.
This place isn't perfect, but it seems to work better than other places I have seen on the internet. That's why I stayed.
Think good thoughts,
e
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You see, what I have the problem with is the ever present acclimation that this place "is safe" when it isn't the place that is safe, it is us. Or at least those of us whom we have taken the time to know on more than a cursory level.
It is to me liken to the fart heard in a quiet classroom......
The kid that says "Ewwwwwwwwwww" first is invariably the culprit.
Likewise the place that says "it is safe" usually needs to be watched the closest.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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For me anywhere on the internet is safe because things are totally on my terms. I know that with 99% of people there's a massive ocean in the way and that gives me a fair bit of security. Also I know I can just walk away at any time. Also, people usually don't offend me on the internet, they can annoy me, sure, but it is never really offensive. I'm not sure why, perhaps because to a certain degree most people I meet on 'net still aren't real people, some become real people once friendships are really established and find out lots about each other and share a lot of things, but yeah, in a forum/ message board environment people are just acquaintances, but they still want to help, here. So that makes it somewhere safe and somewhere comfortable. That's my thoughts, anyway, although somewhat poorly expressed.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Now I must admit my memory is crap, especially with people. But, Tim, aren't you the one who shared with us pretty much a whole relationship, start to finish and the emotions that went with that, short lived though it was? And you told us the details of why you are "freaky?" That's some pretty personal stuff.
I don't remember you pissing people off here, and yeah sometimes I also only remember what I want to, but I do feel like most of us won't simply tell people what the want to hear - yes we may be diplomatic or try to be inoffensive, but I think most of us express our opinions pretty well even when other than what the recipient wanted to hear.
I do believe some people need a place to feel safe, even a cyber place, where they can be themselves and discuss what they don't dare talk to others about.
To me, yes, this is a cyber place and that part is "virtual" but I've learned so many details about so many people over the years and shared my demons and life and family as well. I've also gotten to know a few folks better elsewhere or in e-mail. So, although one or two may be playing games, I do feel that most of the people here are very real humans.
Yes, I *DO* probably need to get a life, and cyberfriends are definitely a compromise, but we all do the best we can.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739
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I think you had better make them plainly and in full.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739
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It's at the head of the board. It is the "rules of engagement" when we post here. Itis a part if the design that creates the posisbility if safe pasage and safe conduct:
I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love.
Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving!
So much is here. help, advice, deep discussions, freedom to do anything except judge, insult anyone or flame them
If you have something to say, break the ice and say it. This place thrives on discussions, even hugely controversial ones.
Please use care and charity when you discuss here, and realise that absolutes are unlikely despite your or my certainty in them.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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This topic is a no-brainer..Simply put,friends dont hurt each other.Restraint,tolorance and some measure of understanding is required.There sure is a lot of difference between abuse on this site vs personal insecurity.IE the abusers are insecure. rob
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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It would appear that there are several long-time posters that somehow feel that because of seniority,they have earned their place in the pecking order.Sorry dudes,there are no prima-donas here.ALL ARE EQUAL.I would hope that these so-called insecure prima-donas somehow get their comeuppence.It is the bullies that make this an unsafe place.People that think their shit dont stink.Judging by the supportive private e-mails that I have recieved it would seem that there is some merit to my criticisms!Perhaps Marc and Saben will never consider me a friend-so be it! However I AM their friend with the exception that I will not allow them to bully me and I will speak out.Other than that,I will continue to offer unconditional love no matter the circumstance. Several years ago,I as a very lonely man was unaware of the cyber world out there,Timmy,his stories and his personal contact has had a profound effect on my life and for that I am greatful.By myself I have done no great deeds nor managed to dazzle the world with sage and brilliance.Sometimes I question my purpose.All I can say is that these stories and the efforts of authors has impacted my life very much. rob
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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Casual aquaintances indeed-- how sad thats what you think we are. rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What I am doing is to try to convey the real notion that this place is not safe meerly because Tim"my" says it is....
It is a place.... Like any other place....
It has all the good and the bad..... Just like any other place.
If I ruffled some feathers.... Well then so be it....
But the truth be known.... The only way this place can possibly be safe is to proclaim less that it is, and avow the fact that it has the same potential for harm as any other place on the internet.
I am throwing NO stones here.... I am just trying to be realistic
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Thusly, does that include your certainty in the safe nature of this place?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Sure as far as all can post and reply.... there is an equality of opportunity to do so....
But what about the newbie, the person that has never before posted online before? Surely you have to admit that it is a bit daunting. If a new person makes a post just because it says it is safe atop the screen does this not open an opportunity to potential harm?
And I did not say "harm here" now did I....
Is it not possible that an unsuspecting innocent might just think that because it is said to be safe here that they might feel safe in more unscrupulous places found on the net?
Is it not possible that this "place of safety" can be setting up a false sense of security for unwary newcomers?
Please try and assimilate this notion,
On a personal note, Rob, I don't ever disclude the possibility of friendship with anyone.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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With but one exception, I have never met anybody here in person. Yet, I consider several people here to be friends (most excellent, and, above all, most real friends), especially those who for some reason thought enough of me to seek me out away from here (in chats and through e-mails) and who continue to do so (for which I am most grateful). These are friends who I probably would have never met otherwise. I hope we can meet in person some day; but until that happens (or even if it never does happen), these friendships which have come about from my having so brazenly made my presence known here have indeed gone quite far beyond anything that can be termed only "virtual". OK, it's not (at this stage, anyway) the kind of friendship which involves actual physical contact with another person (as much as we might like it to be); but I don't feel that disqualifies it from being real. I know that if any of these friends were to suddenly disappear from my computer screen for any reason, I would feel the loss just as acutely as I did (say) the passing about a year and a half ago of a school chum who was supposed to grow old with me.
Yes, I admit, perhaps I do need to "get a life" by going out and making some "real" friends; but at the same time, I think it's so sad that anyone would feel the need to disparage any friendships made here just because they don't meet the standards of what (in that person's eye) constitutes "reality". They are most real to me (as I feel they must be to anybody else here who have made similar friendships with others), and I would only ask that these feelings be respected.
We do not remember days...we remember moments.
Cesare Pavese
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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How can it be considered more than casual? I very rarely communicate with people other than through this MB. How can you or anyone expect more of an interaction other that at it's most casual level?
I am not saying that I have never made friends online. I have made several. But to assume that a reply to an occasional post constitutes true friendship is a bit much don't you think?
It may seem on the surface a bit harsh... But it is reality as I see it.
But I do leave the door open.... After all, is anyone so poor that they can't afford a friend....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739
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You have said:
It is to me liken to the fart heard in a quiet classroom......
The kid that says "Ewwwwwwwwwww" first is invariably the culprit.
Likewise the place that says "it is safe" usually needs to be watched the closest.
So, the implication I have received from you is simple. I have received it personally, not "generally". Theimplication I have received form your words is that, because of the title I have chosen to give this place and that has been here sine the messageboard opened two iterations ago that I am somehow deceiving those who come here into it being something which it is not.
You also give an example of the boy in class who farts. So, if anyone protests that you are incorrect, they are tarred with the same brush. "Methinks they do protest too much" is what I hear from you.
I have, for the past several days, tried my very hardest to calm this place down from the major disagreements that were raging. I do not see your posts as helping this. We have discussed often in private methods and tone of posting.
And you are right, not all are equal. I have said before that some knowledge I have behind the scenes allows some people to continue posting with a different "style" from others, since I know that each perosn is not equally challenged by adversity. Enough, however, is now enough.
I do not know what your agenda is any more, if I ever did. Certainly it is true that no-one ignores your posts any more. If that was your intent you have succeeded, but at the cost of what?
I will not stand by while squabbles and accusations reduce this place to rubble.
You may say that you are throwing no stones. But what I see is nasty, knife twisting, bitter, mean spirited delivery of innuendo after innuendo.
I am hurt personally by this behaviour. I feel hurt, upset and let down.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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Then let me level the playing field good sir should I discern bullying in any form,I will respond and those that do feel threatened,let them suck on bananas. People,either by position or wealth of power do not scare me.I with equal oppertunity prick windbags.An equal oppertunity prick if you will. rob
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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sweetheart-this glass house can withstand all the stones you can throw. rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But these are your words Tim
This place is safe. It gives the safety to espress many things.
They ring loud and clear.... Over and over again....
Now you know that I know your intentions here and we both know they are honorable.
But what scares me is the notion that a place which preaches its safeness could give a false sense of over confidence to an unwarry person. Say someone who has been here ventures to a place not so safe, is it not possible that one might be lured into something entirely unwholesome, all the while thinking that his first experience was good and fine, therefore this new place will be as well?
A truely safe place will not only express it's intents, but it should warn as well....
Don't you think?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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It seems like Marc is saying, "By saying this place is safe, we have made it less so, by giving a carte blanc sense of security which may splill into other communications."
That sort of makes sense, if a naive person becomes too comfortable here and assumes other places are safe, or e-mails from people referring to this place are necessarily safe, harm can be done. I doubt this was meant personally, but see how it could be taken so, especially with the (bad, IMHO) fart example which could be taken to imply the board owner (who is they one pronouncing safety) is himself is unsafe.
I think it's a stretch Marc, but see the point, if this is what you mean.
Part of the purpose of the heading is to remind us to do our parts to make this place safe by sometimes pulling punches and not "getting personal." That is perhaps, IMHO, more important than encouraging the unsure to participate.
It's not stated or implied, but to most of us it's obvious that timmy has no control over private e-mails or other forums, as the youngsters awknowlege in another thread. He does what he can, humanly and sometimes seemingly a bit more, to simply keep this place alone reasonable.
We've discussed in the past "warnings" and I think pretty much reached consensus that warnings themselves would make unsure people less sure about their involvement here, and this is explicitly a place to welcome the unsure.
I don't know if it's advisable and I may have offended a few like smith and AdamAnd when they started here, but I personally try to make a point, via a personal e-mail to both welcome and encourage, but also warn new participants, especially if it appears they may be disclosing too much personal info. I don't have a wonderful gift of words, so maybe I say it poorly, but I hope it's warm and personal and has enough of my life details to make me seem real enough to understand the warning.
I guess if this is a big concern, maybe you could take on that role, Marc - a bit of a welcome committee and a bit of a warning? Until someone posts their e-mail address, I don't see much potential threat at all.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739
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I was beginning very seriously to have problems with your words, as you saw.
I think it is not my role, however, to say "While I think this place may be safe I am not so sure about anywhere else." People use the world, let alone the internet, at their own discretion.
It is clear that no messageboard can guarantee safety. I cannot guarantee that no-one here has bad intentions. I think, however, smith and Andy have expressed it well in smith's thread on safety.
Let is all be clear that design is one thing and actualisation of the design depends on so many other things, especially external influences. The people who come here are those external influences. This is why I strive to calm argumemnts, and why I prefer discussion to debate.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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And I spent two hours sitting here looking for exactly the right words....
and poof.....
they were gone.....
suffice it for me to say.....
There are places out there that can entrap the unwary..... and the sense of ease this place can create has the potential to spawn unwary persons.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But I see it as your responsibility if they walk into that world from your door.
But it seems that I am again tilting at windmills.....
Ok.... there is no problem.... Everything is fine....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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What in GODS good name is this person talking about.Whatever it is,I just wish for some plain honest talk. This place is as SAFE as WE ALL make it.Surely there is room for diverse opinions and beliefs.This is what makes all of us strong,the willingness to tolorate diversity and learn from others.So what if someone tells another to suck bananas or is somewhat harsh in reply.The thing is,that this forum is a source of power for ALL of us.Not a place of power OVER others. Suppose that some get their toes stepped on a bit.Pouting and other childish behavior will not cure the SMALL hurt.If We get stepped on-then just say ouch.Our collective love and brotherhood will MAKE IT ALL BETTER.Sure that sounds sappy and all that. Timmy is a leader and has DONE GOOD in creating this site AND SURE AS HELL deserves ALL our respect.He has mine.But I refuse to roll over and play dead.Bullies disgust me.Religions,sects others that would impose their despotic rule over others frighten me.I dont think it reasonable that others require my silence when i see this foolishness happen! There seems some concern about newcomers to this site.What they will observe is diversity in action.The freedom to express opinion or view.They will also observe that when a member gets a bit out of hand,others will embrace that person with love and caring.I doubt that I am wrong,but this forum is special.unique if you will.It dont take a rocket scientist to see that Timmy has created A SPECIAL PLACE.Endowed with a powerful love for his fellow man. rob
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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put a stocking in it friend love rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739
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I can accept no responbsibility for anyone else's stupidity. It is unreasoanble to allocate it
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739
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Let me give you a simple example. http://www.disney.com is safe. NAMBLA's website may well not be.
Disney does not have a disclaimer on their site about other sites that exist on the net. Yet each side is "designed with the child in mind".
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739
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Somene recently told me about some "behind the scenes self appointed guardians" here that decided to warn new members off. And they have been.
One person advised a young man not to come here. Apparently the place was not in his best interests, or some such message.
Such guardians also cause harm. Where was THAT child to go? The person who told me had no answer to that.
Let me remind you that this place and others like it are known to have prevented several suicides. Fact. Are known to have reacted as though a suicide was to take place, and caused local services to react. Fact. Have created an environment where troubled people can talk about their troubles and maybe save the need to think about death. Fact but less provable. Have allowed people of all ages to come to accept wat was in so many cases a sexuality that was distasteful to them. Fact.
The idea, Trevor, is valid. The results do not work that well. It happens already. I think it is rather unhelpful thatit does, especially since some moral minority has set up behind the scenes to "police" this place. We are already under scrutiny anyway. Judicial authorites naturally scan sites like this one for illegal activity, of which there is none. The setting up of some sort of vigilanty posse around it would be rather silly.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Snyde remarks are about what I expected.... Disney and NAMBLA, hmmm.... clever
But like I said.... There is no problem....
None....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739
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A statement of simple fact. It was not clever. It is fact. You have made your point. It has been rejected. Time to get over it.
I have lost all interest in this topic. It is about time everyone lost interest in it.
You have proven something, but not the point you were trying to make. Though you have said it often enough for it to be a recurring statement.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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His Highness has spoken.....
Never more shall I breach the norm by speaking MY mind on an issue....
Let there be flowers and sunshine through the kingdom....
Huzzah... Huzzah... Huzzah...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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ENOUGH ! We are being fed upon by a predator.Turn me back into a frog so I can swim the Atlantic and stand by your side Timmy. rob
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rbryce
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Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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well perhaps we should warn them about rob getting turned into a frog.heheheho rob
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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by the way,where are those chocolate chip cookies.my computer only has the kind that you cant eat. rob
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