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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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As the real me I have been introduced by a responsible adult to a rising 11 year old US lad. We chat sometimes about how he can cope with being a little victimised sometimes, and when fun turns into bullying and how to stop when it does that. He's almost 11 and he thinks within his age and experience. Fun is fun. How can fun sometimes become bullying? that sort of thing. So I use me as an example of someone who was held down and tickled unmercifully by a probably innocent gentlemen when I was on holiday and about eight years old. My young friend is starting to get it.
Today we somehow got onto 'That's so gay!'
He doesn't like to use it but hears it often. We got there as we were talking about whether a boy could say another boy was good looking. He said, reasonably, "But if U say it ppl say ur gay"
I told him I was gay and he didn't flinch. I like that a lot.
I've given him absolute permission to show any responsible adult he chooses anything we say to each other, by the way, and told him that nothing I say to him is a secret, though it is private in a one way manner. I keep his stuff private from his family, but he has no need to do the same for me. We agreed that the only good secrets are things like birthday presents, but that privacy is important, but may be broken by him if he ever feels he needs to.
We chatted about bullying, about the It Gets Better Project and about how awful it must be to be teased for something you can't help like being left handed or having black hair. He needed no persuading. He agrees.
Then he asked the hardest question I've ever had to answer "How do U know if U R?"
I checked. He did mean "How do U know if U R Gay?"
I had to think hard. Remember he's almost 11. He'll have had The Talk either at home or in school, so I told him I expected that he'd had The Talk and wasn't going to talk about sex to him at all.
Instead I talked about love, romantic love, and how, probably after age 13/14 he'd find he fell for a girl or a boy and how it didn't matter at all which he fell for, but that would probably give him a clue. And we talked about good parents loving their kids whether they came home with a girlfriend or a boyfriend.
Then we talked about kayaking white water!
I feel privileged to have had such a sensible chat with an 11 year old with no obvious hangups and, like The Elephant's Child, a satiable curiosity. I don't expect we'll ever mention gay again. But I do expect he gave it all a lot of quiet thought. He's a nice lad with a good family. No idea where he lives, nor do I want to know, not until he's at least 18 anyway.
[Updated on: Tue, 16 August 2011 12:41]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Very well done, Timmy.
What with global communication available to all it is no wonder that many young ones are out there bashing around on the WWW and making life discoveries for themselves. It is a responsible thing for adults to pay attention since the little devils don't always identify their age.
I garnered several young readers when I was posting elsewhere. That was one of the reasons I came to Iomfats. The philosophy of a site is very important and just the words Place of Safety is like a beacon of hope in the night.
If a reader mails enough times then clues begin to leak through, the most blatant being a mention of school events. I would never ask an age but most of them eventually offer the answer, and then the nurturing urge kicks in.
I rarely talk about the stories unless it is in context with their young lives. Bullying is the foremost topic these days and I think in many ways the LBGT community has managed to raise that profile to good purpose.
There is one very lucky 11 year old out there and...ahem...a lucky grandfatherly imaged adult who knows what he needs.
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
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Very well done Tim.
I often have the gaylings coming to me to talk and ask advice. When we first start conversing beyond the, "I liked your story" I ask first thing what their age is. It is important to know their mental age and that is not always easy through simple conversations. Then I let them know that I am an old guy, not a young kid. I am never pretending to be what I'm not.
If they come asking questions as they so often do, I tell them right off that I will always answer them truthfully as I see it and they may not always like my answers but they will be honest. I also tell them that they may ask me anything. It is very helpful for them to know there is someplace faceless that they can get honest plain answers. When they ask about sex they get honest answers and ALWAYS talk about safety and protection.
As far as personal information, as close as I get is to ask what city they are in or for a zip code and only if I am looking for resources that, through our conversations, we have surmised that they need. Like an LGBT branch or a GSA. I have had them offer to send me info and refused it telling them what they know already, there are bad people out there. I have had them offer to send me pictures and I tell them it isn't necessary for me to see their face when I know their heart. And again, that it should never be done. EVER! Not on facebook or twitter or anyplace on the web.
Now, regarding your 11 year old. How do you know if you are? I think you answered it very well. But some know much earlier. I would ask him,"Why? Do you think you might be?" and then follow with a, "tell me why you think you might be." The first question is really redundant because he wouldn't ask if he wasn't wondering. But what it does is make him say it out loud to himself. For many, this is the first time they have really articulated it to themselves or another. In doing that it sets some things in motion and also tells you the level of their maturity in their answer. Some enter puberty earlier than others. I was well into it at 10 for example. Everyone's body clock is different.
What it sets in motion is self awareness and self examination. And depending on his answer you can go on to tell him what things to look for and that none of it is definitive until he is older. For most,at age 11 they are still in the "girls are yucky but maybe not ALL of them." Or they are picking out one that is pretty. Or they are still looking at their best mates. But generically you handled it straight forward and that is what was called for.
Having said that. The one thing you should not do is to slough it off as idle curiosity. They are asking for a reason and giving them stupid analogies like birds and bees is a disservice. They came looking for answers and not knowing where to find them. Or telling them something like, you're too young to wonder about such things, you'll just know when the time is right does not give them the information they are seeking.
If you talk to him again and you broach that topic again, you might ask him a couple other questions like, "Do you know someone who is gay? this is helpful in knowing how his family might respond to him being gay if he turns out to be. If he says, "ya my mom works with a guy who is gay" or "My dad's brother is gay" or "My older brother is gay". these also tell you different things about his home life. Another question might be,"What do you think your mom or dad would say if you told them that you were?"
If he is then that is something he needs to explore before coming out with it over breakfast. He can ask probative questions to find out. like, "A kid at school said his brother came home and told his mom that he was gay. What does that mean?" That lets him lay the groundwork to say, something like, "Is that ok that he's gay? Some kids said that he was a pervert and some said like so what! they looked at me and I didn't have any answer because I never thought about it."
This can help him know what to ask and how to ask it to see if his family is homophobic or not. That will be important when determining if he has a trustworthy support network. And he will need one, whether it is his family or a counselor.
My goal in that type of situation is to make them comfortable with themselves, with asking me questions and avoiding a life ending scenario if it comes to it. Knowing the parents stand is important. And letting them know they need to explore it before blurting anything out can mean the difference between a supportive family and a kid on the streets."
Your young friend did not ask, "What's it mean to be gay." He asked, "How do you know if you are." that is a very important distinction. When he asked that, depending on the maturity of the conversation, it might prompt me to find out if he knows what it means or more precisely, what 'HE' thinks it means. It might avoid a situation like the kid asking his mother where he came from and the mother telling him about the birds and the bees and then finding out that he just wondered because his new friend Tommy is from Cleveland.
It's a delicate walk to be sure. And if you come across one who you think may be contemplating hurting themselves, never be afraid to ask the question, "Do you sometimes think about hurting yourself?" or "Do you think you might hurt yourself now?" If the answer is yes, then refer them to an organization that can help immediately. In the U.S. the Trevor project 866-4-U-Trevor ( 866-488-7386 )I am still looking for suicide hotlines for gay youth's in the UK and other countries. If anyone knows of any I would love to hear about them. I usually try to find a LGBT near them as I know they will have resources to help them.
Do not think that by asking the question that you might be giving them ideas. If they are already contemplating it, then they will surprise you by saying yes. They are out there seeking help. their lives are out of control. IF they aren't then that will be apparent as well. But asking will not push them over the edge. If anything, saying it will help them to get out some of the anxiety they have and just talking about it to someone listening may save their life by diffusing their feelings.
Your young friend of course is obviously not in that condition but I thought it would be good for others who read here to have this information.
The Trevor Project is a 24/7/365 suicide hotline specifically though not exclusively for gay kids. they are super. They also have resources for teaching kids about hate speech and counseling. Their resources are downloadable and priceless. Try the "lifeguard" course. Their website is:
http://www.thetrevorproject.org/
2 specific areas to see are 'Suicide Resources' and 'Educators and parents'.
I have found it a great wealth of information that has helped me save more than a few lives. And I have to tell you, that feels pretty good. I may have squandered my youth as a gay male but nothing can be done about that. but helping to make sure others don't softens the loss within myself somewhat. I confess being jealous of our youth today and the environment they are getting to live in. It is far from perfect but at least they don't want to "cure you" with electroshock therapy. Today they have a new name for that by the way, "Electroconvulsive Therapy".
Wisdom does not come with age. It occurs because of it.
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It's ok to ask if that feeling is an erection or just butterflies in his stomach. Or you could say, "By feelings do you mean like butterflies in your stomach or something a bit lower?"
You aren't tutoring, you're asking about a bodily function. You also aren't suggesting that you are trying to start anything either.
He didn't say that wrestling around with him or laying on top of him brought it on either. that indicates that the response was more emotionally induced. I think that I would tell him that that can be normal whether straight or gay. Even straight boys will at some point find a smile on a boy that stirs his heart and even his loins. Tell him that is normal with all the new hormones that are flooding his body and his mind. Tell him to give himself some time to figure them out before deciding.
Just tell him that it might be or it might not, only he will know for sure. but not to hurry into making a decision or labeling himself until he is sure. There isn't a rush. There is lots of time for relationships and feelings to build. Just tell him not to be afraid of his feelings either. That if he is it's normal and ok and if he isn't, that to is normal and ok.
He's fishing I think. He is looking for confirmation of a condition he has already recognized within himself. Could he be wrong? Sure. But not real likely. I knew I was different at 5. By ten I was sure. And I am anything but fem. I suspect his awareness started long before his hormones decided to turn on his erection pump automatically. Way back when things were still hand actuated.  )
Don't be afraid to talk sex from a health stand point. You may be his only source of truthful information. And deciding that he is too young to do something is not going to stop him from trying it and perhaps getting hurt. Instead talk to them factually and tell them that such and such should only be done when they are much older and really know the person. For now cuddling and kissing is the order of the day.
But having the knowledge of what is involved in such an advanced act as penetration may prevent him from blindly trying it and getting hurt. Whereas knowing that stretching patiently and using a lubricant can reduce the possibilities of being torn open and hurt badly enough to go to the doctor or hospital will likely put that on the list of much later in life. Not knowing can have the opposite affect.
It's scarey for most kids once they know the mechanics of it. The ones in danger are the clueless ones that give in to the hormones of the moment because they didn't know what could happen. Most will stop at oral or digitally manipulating the anal region. That is one I only speak of if questioned.
Don't place too high of a value on American sex education in the schools. their curriculum is stupid in most places and focuses only on heterosexual mating and prevention of conception and of course condom use. Little if any mention is made of gay sexual practices other than to say, always use a condom.
Wisdom does not come with age. It occurs because of it.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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If it returns to the conversation, then yes, all of that is grist to the mill. It' an area where he needs to be very careful because he is using a shared chat ID. One has to be exceptionally careful in this country (UK). There is an offence of "grooming" a minor for sexual acts. It would be irresponsible of me to open this up to such an accusation, nor so much for my own sake, but for the child, who would then feel the huge guilt of the society-created victim.
I take your point about US sex ed. We have a better view, but we still only teach mating and not a whole lot more.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I'm going to echo Tim's statement about "grooming" with a cautionary note of my own.
I speak with authority & knowledge gleaned from reporting on the Americans & their political landscape for the past 30 years coupled with parallel international political changes, that has virtually rendered conversation with a minor, UNDER the age of 18, (Note NOT age of consent, but 18.) where a discourse over matters of a sexual nature even in the slightest degree ensues will leave the adult open to prosecution.
It really is that simple.
Examination of the legal codes in the U. S., UK, and now several member nations of the EU show that specifically, electronic means, IM Chat, Skype, email etc., are particularly scrutinised and in more cases than not, a simple misinterpretation of intent or statement by the offending adult if so deemed by that minor's parents or guardians to be sexual or cause offence will bring a rapid response on the part of law enforcement.
This of course excludes the minor's themselves misconstruing intent or the adult's desire to be "helpful."
My advice? Stay as far away from any scenario that puts you in contact with minors in what would be construed as an "unsupervised" advisory capacity.
Tragic? Yes- but it is the reality of the world that we live in today. "It Gets Better" videos and have means to refer parents or teachers or even published on blogs and websites of lists of organisations for young persons to turn to is by far a preferred method by which one can avoid ANY display of what others may view as improper or inappropriate contact.
Need I remind the gentle readers here? The corporate christian and extremist Islamic spokespersons along with their Jewish counterparts almost always equate being Gay or Lesbian with paedophilia and or outright preying on the young. This is a fact.
Personally? I think any adult talking with kids about sex who is not rightly licenced as a teacher, or health care worker/professional, or a parent related to that child is an idiot.
Tragic, yes, reality though folks............of course then there's this:
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We certainly do live in different world to be certain. And by all means protect yourself.
Perhaps I've been lucky so far. I always try and ascertain if they have a viable support network and have been fairly lucky so far. And I always try and turn them to it when it is established that a safe one exists. I always emphasize that they are the support network they need to depend on. I also do not give information not asked for directly. I am not educating them about something they are not asking about. I have worked with one young-man's therapist and we, jointly have salvaged the boy and created a viable good healthy human out of it.
I am very careful never to ask for identifying info and always keep things above board. And you are right, the predominant perception is that all gay males are predators. A horrible fact.
Even with the therapist, I have given ID and all conversations to him so that he may help draw the boy out of his hell, which he seems to have done successfully so far. He often gave me guidance as to the directions of inquiry and directions that he would like to work on towards making him have a healthier self esteem.
I also do not look for them. They come to me whether through a referral of one of the other kids I've helped or from reading one of my stories. But I do not hang out in chat rooms or the such.
So I am very careful to keep myself above board and transparent to inquiry.
I know and can positively show that I have saved lives and I have been through the social studies by the courts for my own son's adoption. So I have these things working for me should anything go amiss. I also have a doctor that can and will vouch for my methods and integrity.
But when it comes to the world of litigation there is always the chance of ending up there to be certain. Having spent a great deal of time on the stand as a detective for many years, I do not fear the court room. My bottom line is this. I'd rather face an old court than to face a young corpse. Sometimes that attitude is what is required for bad laws to be changed. At least in this country. We also have the advantage of innocence until proven guilty. It's only the parents who are guilty until proven innocent when child protective services is brought into the situation.
I hope the world wakes up and see the reality of it. Our kids are killing themselves right and left. And most of it for lack of honest education or just an accepting ear. Not a tolerant one but accepting. The difference between the two is support. Tolerance is acceptance without support.
The ones who need to worry and SHOULD worry are those sleazy mucks that give us a bad name and have painted the gay world with a wide brush. The ones with all the crap porn on their machines that traffic in young flesh. I have spent a good part of my career trying to recover those taken and abused. Perhaps one day they will see that they have the same problem on the straight side of the street. They just don't get the press.
I hope I don't become an example of bad things happening to good people. But it is not my nature to turn away from what I know is the right thing to do.
So be safe and make changes where you can. I can certainly understand your trepidation.
Wisdom does not come with age. It occurs because of it.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I fear that having saved lives is no defence against the charge of grooming. Men own penises, and that is all the evidence that is needed against a man.
In my case with this lad I was introduced by an adult in his family. I have been careful to forbid knowing his location and to forbid any type of photograph being sent in ether direction.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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While you may or may not think that private solo conversations with a minor, even with the tacit approval of a "responsible parent or guardian" adult is sufficient and may still be considered "safe"- sadly the fact is that its not.
Because the American law enforcement community is populated with rather anti-gay and quite frankly narrow minded individuals whose job it is to investigate crimes against children, targeting any site or collection of persons gathering such as even this site is regarded as policy and "smart."
Hence a law enforcement official reading this thread and the previous statements would likely draw a negative interpretation that runs counter to reality.
Adding to this is that a majority of those law enforcement types are evangelical by upbringing or beliefs, you have a recipe for said investigators making "assumptive" judgments.
As a journalist, I have seen this time and time again- and no, I am not discounting the heavily catholic police contingent either.
The following best illustrates my point:
Brian Tashman, policy writer & analyst for Right Wing Watch covered the following exchange from the anti-gay Liberty Counsel's Matt Barber and Liberty University School of Law's professor Judith Reisman.
Barber claimed that the anti-bullying group GLSEN (the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network) “sexualizes children” and is “running interference for the pedophile movement” and “making [children] receptive to potential advances from adults.”
Reisman said that “the whole point of the objective” of GLSEN’s anti-bullying efforts was to promote pedophilia. She went on to claim that “the aim of homosexual males and now increasingly females is not to have sex with other old guys and get married but to obtain sex with as many boys as possible.”
Barber: Now I talk about the sexual anarchy movement and their larger goals, the pedophile movement is one branch, the homosexual activist movement is another branch, you know the pro-abort wing with Planned Parenthood and people like that. Part of the homosexual activist movement for instance is GLSEN, the Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network, they partner with the National Education Association and create a curriculum that seeks to indoctrinate children into the idea that homosexuality is normal, natural and good. This sexualizes children and aren’t they really running interference for the pedophile movement here? By sexualizing these children, making them receptive to potential advances from adults?
Reisman: Well yes of course Matt, that’s the whole point of the objective of the activity. And I don’t distinguish them, this is all part of the pedophile movement.
…
Reisman: We know that pedophilia, which was the original Greek they say it’s ‘love of’ but of course it isn’t, it’s ‘lust for’ boys. And there’s a strong, clear, cross-cultural, historical reality, people don’t want to do deal with, but the propaganda has been loud and strong to deny the fact, the aim of homosexual males and now increasingly females is not to have sex with other old guys and get married but to obtain sex with as many boys as possible. That’s the reality. I wish it weren’t, but it is.
*******
Even the so-called "stories" posted elsewhere on this site, could damn near fit some definitions, narrowly, of soft porn should an over zealous prosecutor from deep in the American bible belt so decide that by his/her "community" standards, those stories could be construed in violation as such.
Oh and please folks don't bothering jumping into the tired First Amendment arguments as a prosecution would be under the existing post 9-11 Patriot Act mentality. I seriously doubt such occurrence obviously, but my point remains.
The days of "safely" having a private discussion with young folks in the American nation are gone. It may be safer in the UK and the rest of the EU to a degree better than the U. S.. This is 1000% true if you are LGBTQ.
Until the onerous is removed, and this vocal but politically powerful minority is finally marginalised to the point where outrageous statements such as those made above are no longer relevant in the national discourse regarding human sexuality- I reiterate my earlier statement:
"Unless you are a duly licenced professional or related to the minor, you are an idiot and putting yourself at risk talking to a child without another adult present."
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DesDownunder
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Likes it here |
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Registered: September 2010
Messages: 127
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To some it may seem off topic, but where grooming laws exist, I think they should also cover religious instruction as well.
Of course, such a statement is going to cause religious people to run around the room screaming about protection of religious freedoms.
It is quite logical to claim that if even an innocent discussion on sex between an adult and a young person is regarded by the law as "grooming" a minor for sexual acts, then it seems only fair to protect the child from being corrupted by religious indoctrination. This too is a form of "grooming" whether the older person has ulterior sexual motives or not.
The difficulty with such laws is that it is almost impossible for a person to defend themselves from the accusation of "intent" to groom.
Whilst paedophilia is rightly condemned, the reaction of modern cultures to everyday interactions between young people and adults, often overlooks the fact that in ancient times (and even not so ancient times) children often witnessed adults engaging in sex, without thinking twice or even batting an eyelid.
Victorian prudery seriously limited social discussion on sexual matters. It is not surprising that even today, there are naïve young people who, when they finally get married, look at their partner and ask, "You want to put what, where?"
The point here is, that restrictive laws and social customs of limiting dialogue between younger and older generations overlooks children's natural ability to cope with sexual discussion, provided it is not coercive or manipulative. Our societies are a long way from being able to exercise the balance between protection and education of minors, without grooming them sexually, or indoctrinating them with religion, or for that matter, molesting their intellects.
For those of you who are horrified about tying sexual grooming with religious indoctrination, let me point out to you that religion already ties the two together when it regards sex outside marriage as a sin, and condemns a number of natural sexual practices as abominations. It has to describe such things before they can be prohibited, otherwise the kids won't recognise what they shouldn't be doing. Therefore unless the religion agrees to exclude all references to its sexual commandments and stories involving "*knowing* in the Biblical sense," from their teachings with kids, the religious instructors should also be subjected to the laws of grooming.
Well, we shouldn't hold our breath waiting for that to happen, but it might be an idea to abide by the new version of an old saying, "When in the presence of children, adults should be neither seen nor heard."
DesDownunder
Call me naive if you want, but life without trust in the goodness of others would be intolerable.
Religious indoctrination: It gets better, without it.
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Oh yes, Des...I can give you a direct connection between religion and sex:
When I was twelve, a time that I was still under the influence of a devoutly religious Catholic mother (she was told if I did not attend church that SHE was going to hell) I went to mass every Sunday and that meant confession on Saturday.
That old "Bless me Father for I have sinned" routine I despised. So of course I had to tell the old bastard priest something in the confessional. "I have had impure thoughts, Father"...quoting back the crap they tossed at us in religious doctrine classes (aka. catholic brainwashing).
I did not mention any personal sexual activity, what twelve year old would? It was always the priest who brought it up with that old: "Did you engage in masturbation, my son?"
My first thought was to reply "I am not your son and it is none of your damn business." But I didn't say anything of the kind. I did however walk away from the church at age fourteen and told my mother she was bound for hell, see ya there!
If I was to ask a twelve year old about his mastubatory habits (and we know they all do it...didn't we?) I wouldn't be here telling you this because they don't allow internet in jail. >
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes yadda yadda yadda 
Re: Out of the mouths of babes yadda yadda yadda 
