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kipper
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Getting started |
Location: U.S.A.
Registered: March 2013
Messages: 2
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Have you ever wondered why you are gay, yet you knew you were gay long before you admitted it to yourself. Are you ashamed of being gay? It's not easy at first to admit you are gay. You hear everyone tell you that people are not born gay they become gay as time goes along. In other words they made themselves to be gay. Or did they drink the wrong CoolAid.
Well, stop and think about it. Do you believe you can not be gay if only you try your best to not be gay? I tried that route myself. It won't happen for you no way, no how, no matter how hard you try! Many have tried and spent thousands on shrinks, but still they know inside their mind they are still gay! They finally realize there is no shame in being gay! God don't care what you see yourself as, he only knows his intention was for you to be gay and to worship him.. That is why it took me so long to admit I was gay, because I tried to be straight because the bible said we will go to hell for leading a gay life. Those Bible thumpers will go to any extreme to convince a person their position is the only position acceptable to God.
If God is supposed to forgive us for our sins if we only ask him, then why is a gay person too guilty for his forgiveness? That is according to our friends the church goers. And I believe he made a lot of us gay, but for what reason I don't know and yet I wish I knew. But I do believe there is a plan and until we fulfill Gods wish we must stay on this earth.
Being gay after-all is nothing but a state of mind. Yet we seem to hide it from our friends and family. I know I do.
Sure there are the brave ones that somehow are willing to show the whole world that their gay. I truly admire those people for not fearing an ass whooping or damnation from the straight tight ass people that condem gays. There have been a lot of us killed for being gay.
I've been married to the same girl over forty years now. I thought I could stop myself from being gay by marrying and having a family. That sure as hell didn't work. Believe me that don't change anything in your life. Your either gay or straight there are no in betweens. It comes down to how you handle it. It is never easy trying to live a double life. Constantly torn to go both ways. It could drive you crazy.
Except I believe there are many that claim to be straight yet have a desire to experience the other side, but have no balls to try it out.
I have never stopped thinking about a dick and how I would enjoy having sex with a good looking guy I see on the street. As much as I tried to not be gay it seemed the more my mind wanted a dick in my mouth.
Do you believe in God? I do! Believe me this is not a sermon.
I'm not that church going guy that tells everyone they are going to hell if they don't admit to believing in God. Nor am I trying to preach to you to repent your sins. I haven't been inside a church for a sermon since I was 15 years old. Still I spent enough time before the age of fifteen learning about God and the teachings of Jesus. I'm thankful for those days as it has helped me to ask myself so many questions about being gay and was I born to be gay and how I feel I was born gay. Which I'll explain below.
The more I think about being gay the more I believe it was Gods plan for me. Yet I still don't know if I have fulfilled the why and what he sent me here to accomplish. Again this is not me preaching a sermon here. If you believe that move on to another story right now.
As I looked back over my 70 years here on this earth I realized there has to be a God and he did indeed want me to be gay. I could not rationalize it any other way.
So I'm sure you ask, how can I be certain of God. I'll try to explain these things in a way I hope you can understand them, the way I do.
I came from a normal family. At least I thought it was fairly normal compared to some of my friends and class mates I grew up knowing. I'm not dissing them, yet I saw things that made me look twice or three times to try and understand how a family can treat its own so cruel and mean. There was no incest in our family. I never was approached by any guy on sex or to share something like books of naked people or a reason to try sex with them. Like you show me yours and I'll show you mine. As much as this really does go on, it never did for me. This is one reason I believe it was not myself trying to be gay.
There was never anyone trying to guide me toward being homosexual. In fact none of my family ever even mentioned gays or talked in our family gatherings about the homo people we "us kids" then knew as queer. Of course by the age of ten I was aware of what a gay person was known to be. This, like most of you was learned from schoolmates. Amazing the things we learned from each other in those formative years.
The word gay was not mentioned until I was probably 25 years old. Before that everyone that went to parties were going for a gay fun loving time. Gay meant you were having fun in life.
But soon after I was twenty five people said you must be gay to say you were having a gay old time at the party last night. Everyone was dumbfounded by statements someone made about gay if you used the word gay in your description of a great party or some other venue. My how times were a-changing as the old folks would say back in those days!
I somehow knew I was not a normal hetro guy at the age of ten. It was then I realized I enjoyed looking at the boys I thought were handsome or beautiful in my eyes. There seemed to be plenty of good looking classmates all through my school years. I especially liked boys with blue or brown eyes, very dark eye brows and darker and longer than normal eye lashes and blond hair. In fact they had eyes most girls would die for for themselves. Girls had to spend hours to get such good looking eyes yet those boys were born looking beautiful and had to do nothing to get those eyes.
I did enjoy looking at beautiful girls too. Dreaming of what they might look like in bed. Thinking I would definitely like to fuck so and so. I then was informed that there were three types of people. Straight, gay and bi sexual. So I knew then I was a bisexual guy that was happy to get sex from whichever came along first.
And don't you just know it. Sex with a girl was much easier than I could have imagined. I had no idea of how to get a boy to swap blow jobs. Getting a girl to fuck was much easier.
My first girl I fucked was when I was eighteen. That too took a while to hear my friends tell it. Some claiming they had screwed a girl at fourteen. But I believe most of them were just puffing up their chest. It sounded good to another listener. Of course there was a few that did but most were just BS ing.
Then there were more girls to screw as time moved along. Of course that stopped after I got married at twenty five years old. I believed in being faithful. That was until she cut me off on sex when I was in my fifties. This hit me hard. Yet there never was a reason given.
Then about this time the internet came along. Oh what a boon that was for the starved introverted sex fein like me. The more I got to look at cocks on the puter the more I decided I needed to fulfill my desire to try sucking a dick. In my mind I felt it would not be cheating on my wife if I had sex with a guy. That was my justification for trying gay sex.
The internet made it so anonymous to find a safe encounter. By safe I mean a guy that would not out me nor that anyone else knew to be queer and recognized by my friends.
I was over fifty years old before I had my first true gay experience with another man. And had now been married close to thirty years with two children. This time I truly found what I had been missing for way too many years. Of course I was hell bent on making up for that lost time after this first encounter. I've been lucky and not contracted any diseases. I tried to be extra careful. I refused quite a few guys I was not sure of.
In school I knew by the ways I thought of boys and what their dicks looked like, I was gay. And I was always hoping to see their dick as we took our whizzes in the urinals at school. Sometimes I was lucky enough to see a good looking cock but I had to be careful I was not spotted trying to look. Cause you should know by now I had been caught a few times looking and was labeled weird or queer. It took a lot of conversation to convince my school mates I was not queer. That was not something a guy needed in his teen years back in the late fifties. Times were very different for queers back then and you could have been ass whooped in a hurry.
So you ask. How do I know I was born gay. Because I had no training in any way shape or form to lead me into the gay side of life. I had not been in a homosexual encounter that would have sent me into thinking only gay thoughts and dreams. Of course we heard stories about gay people and each of us said how bad a queer had to be. We each tried to outdo the other on how much we disliked queers.
I somehow knew when I was about five I liked boys cocks. Yet I did not have those thoughts and dreams about dicks until the age of ten and on till this day.
Well I digress here for one thing that happened when I was fourteen years old. My buddy I had known since the age of ten and fifth grade, taught me a few things about the gay side of life and a few other things I needed to know about sex. Yet this was not truly a gay encounter as we know it to be. I think you'll agree after you hear my story about this encounter.
Perhaps we both were gay but too afraid to face the reality of such a scary future or outing ourselves to each other if the other claimed to be straight. I never trusted anyone about gay sex or any sex for that matter.
Now to tell this short story of how this came about. My buddy and I pitched a tent in his yard for a sleep over. I had never spent a night out of my families homes or out of a bed. This was a first for me. As the night progressed you know boys do not go right to sleep when they hang out together. We talked and talked about everything until he brought up girls from school. We discussed which girl was better looking and of course it soon went to admitting which one would be a good fuck. Sure we settled on the best looking girls yet still admitting we had never even kissed a girl yet. We each knew we had not dated yet.
He suggested we try kissing each other and see if we had our technique worked out so we would not be labeled queer or goofy when we had our first dates with a girl. Of course I was ready to try this with him but was very leery of him outing me as being the queer in our group of friends and schoolmates. I did not trust him, and he said we could make a pact that neither of us would ever out the other on this subject. Well I had already known him for four years by then so I knew if he said anything I would just accuse him right back on it and tell the others we had made an agreement to keep our mouths shut on this. I felt my case could be believed as well as his.
So we proceeded to kissing each other and trying to teach each other the finer ways of kissing someone. This went on for probably a half hour before we agreed we had it figured out.
Now I did forget to mention he and I had been jacking off together for a couple of years by this time. As I said he taught me a lot about sex. This was also done with a few other boys from the neighborhood. Typical boys trying out that new found toy between our legs. But all we ever did was jack off until we produced cum and then go back to fucking around as we called what others would say as play time.
So after that half hour of kissing we jacked off and then we soon went to sleep.
The next night we agreed to sleep out again.
So this time we talked about the night before and then he brought up blow jobs. I said "of course a blow job would be great" yet I knew in my mind he was trying to get me to be the blower. I was not then or ever going to divulge the fact that my true desires were to suck another boys dick and by now his dick too. I would have never told him I was really gay. I was sure if I had he would out me to our friends and schoolmates. So we talked and talked and he agreed if I sucked him he would suck me. Finally after much talk we agreed to do the dirty deed. We got into the 69 position and he would say "OK go, suck me," To which I said "No you suck me first." I said "Your not going to out me as the queer guy of our group." We argued over this for at least ten minutes. Then he said "OK on the count of three we both start sucking each other." I said "OK." Well we must have done the three thing a dozen times yet neither touched the others dick. Finally he said "Ok lets try this." "You put your lips on my cock and I'll do that for you." "No sucking just a short taste." I said "Ok."
Yet it was I that put my lips over his dick first but only for a second or two. I was truly in love with the taste and feel of a nice hard yet soft cock in my mouth after I had done that to him. I knew from that short two seconds, going forward, that someday I was going to be a cock sucker and I was for sure gay! I hoped it was going to be with him that night but somehow I did not trust him enough to be the aggressor and go first. Which proved I was smarter than I might look.
Then it was his turn to do me. He took forever but he eventually did put his mouth on my dick. We then talked about the taste and the feel of each others cock in our mouths. So he suggested we actually do the blow job thing. So I figured he had done as much as I had to further this along and now he had no way of denying he too was a cock sucker as much as I was.
So we got into the 69 again and I admit it had been a fantastic feeling of his cock in my mouth that first time. So I was willing to go a little further this time on him. I sucked his cock about four strokes and he had not begun to do me other than he had his lips around my dick. No other motions.
This really pissed me off and I told him so. I said "You agreed and now you won't do it!" "Why?" He had some lame excuse that I truly forgot over time yet that was the end of our trying to blow each other. We still continued to jack together up until we were both twenty years old.
Still as far as I know he never talked about our encounters. I know I had never talked about it to anyone.
I still believe he was as gay as myself but I had no way of getting him to admit it to me. I often thought about a way to bring the subject up without him thinking I was the agressor.
So now I go back to why I believe we are born gay and that there has to be a God that makes us who we are.
You know they say we are a part of the evolution of this planet. I just find that too hard to believe.
Because!
If evolution formed every thing on this planet by osmosis or the coming together of certain chemicals like are formed in a petri dish. Then why are we not seeing new life forms, forming every so often in nature even to this day. We have lots of recorded history. The petri dish is still there. Certainly something should have appeared by now that would prove the evolution theory. Those chemicals will always be here on this earth. Remember, was it the chicken or the egg?
Yet we have never seen another human or neanderthal that seems to have walked out of the jungle or crawled out of an ocean! We loose species of animals every year that never return, Why? If evolution formed all of this why is there not new species appearing every so often in our lives including replacements for the lost species.
The reason I believe.
God made all of the heavens and the earth. He put every animal and critter on this planet as he wanted them to be, for us to marvel at and wonder why they are so beautiful. Yes even man and woman are wonders of this world we live in.
Nothing in this world will give a man or a woman more enjoyment than having sex with each other. Not money or anything else in this world can truly make us as happy and fulfilled as good sex can make us feel. That was Gods gift to mankind. Oh he did give sexual enjoyments to some of the monkey species.
So I ask you. "Would you rather be rich or healthy?" "Have a great sex life or make money?" I want sex and health over anything else in this world.
I always thought if my sex is good I can be happy enough to make a decent living. That is all a man needs. We can only sleep in one bed at a time yet many have many beds but no one to share that bed with or they share it with someone they do not really love or even like. That is just going through the motions of a life not really worthwhile nor fulfilling. Paying for sex so they don't get tied up with someone they think will abscond with their fortune.
You have to love and be loved to truly love life as God intended. Gay, lesbian or straight makes no difference.
God has his ways of taking care of those that desert him. I know I deserted him and was a very sinful person for most of my years. And I'm still a sinner and I'm sure I will be on the day I die!
He gives us, Cancer, AIDs, accidents of all sorts that make us unable to enjoy our lives as we did when we are young. That is the punishments for those that have sinned really bad or not fulfilled his reason for us being here.
If God likes us and feels we were good to him he will take us from this earth in one fell swoop. No pain or suffering has to be done. But if we have disappointed him we get to experience sickness or cancer or any of the things that make us miserable until the day he finally thinks we have suffered enough.
Now of course you can choose to pooh pooh me about this but I do hope you will consider these things as another way of believing in what this world is about and what it has to offer us before we die! I'm truly not trying to preach to you or ask you to go to church and beg God for forgiveness.
I do not believe in that stuff myself because I don't believe in the church or it's people.
My thoughts about church is. It is the only place you can find the true hippocrates of this world. The church and the preachers want your money. Yet they do not spend any of it on the things most needed in their communities. They pretend it is for the missionaries or to build a new and grander church for you to worship God in. God don't need a multi million dollar building for you or me to worship in. And guess who said to tithe ten percent of your wages? The lazy preachers! This of course is my belief. Your free to have your own beliefs.
He wants us to help the downtrodden and weak by whatever means we are capable of. Hoping they will recover again and be useful citizens to society soon.
He only wants to know we believe in him and try our best to do as little sinning as we can. Yet he tells us he knows we are going to sin. He knows I am gay and you are too if you've made it this far in my story.
I believe God wants us to be happy and treating our neighbors good and not to be judgmental about others. Cause we all live in glass houses no matter how much we want to deny that statement.
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Kitzyma
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Likes it here |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 215
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Kipper's extremely long post starts off as a relatively interesting tale of the experiences of a gay kid growing up in a time and place that is foreign to me. Then it descends into a religious rant against evolution. Then it goes on to tell us how an all-powerful, all-knowing God wishes us to live.
The supposed argument against evolution indicates little understanding of science and even less understanding of logic. A little research would have provided examples of much better arguments that genuinely educated people have been putting forward since Darwin published his theory. Life is too short for me to refute every single point in the post, but:
"Then why are we not seeing new life forms, forming every so often in nature even to this day. We have lots of recorded history."
Oh, the arrogance of humankind! Life has been evolving on this particular planet for over 3 billion years. Our recorded history goes back perhaps six thousand years. There are huge parts of our planet still unexplored, mostly in the seas where life probably originated. Yet something can't have happened because we didn't see it or record it.
"Remember, was it the chicken or the egg?"
This old saw shows a lack of knowledge both of biology and logic.
"Yet we have never seen another human or neanderthal that seems to have walked out of the jungle or crawled out of an ocean!"
Is that an argument for or against anything?
"We loose species of animals every year that never return, Why? If evolution formed all of this why is there not new species appearing every so often in our lives including replacements for the lost species"
There are new species evolving all the time - new species of butterfly adapted to grimy cities, new bacteria adapting to our antibiotics, new viruses adapting to live in humans instead of birds, etc, etc. The net balance of new species versus extinctions can be positive or negative depending on many factors, including human interference. Actually, this post indicates the writer has little or no idea of what the scientific definition of 'species'.
Several times in his post this Kipper clims he isn't preaching, yet that in itself is the big give-away - it is clear that he doth protest too much. There's as much preaching in this posting was was in most sermons I attended in Catholic church as a child.
The idea that cancer and AIDS are punishments from God are insulting to our intelligence as well as being a calumny against any supposed just and loving God. Children far too young to 'sin' suffer and die from such diseases. Such diseases exist in other non-human species, and have done so long before humans existed. Does that imply that such species are capable of 'sin'?
"He only wants to know we believe in him and try our best to do as little sinning as we can. Yet he tells us he knows we are going to sin. "
Ah, here we have it! This is a double sign of those who are certain of their own righteousness - the belief that they know the wishes and wants of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being, plus the total disregard of any logical inconsistency.
Yes, despite all the protests, he IS preaching. And not even doing it very well.
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Hi Kipper
what a long post - I hope you'll excuse me if I don't deal with all of it.
firstly, and far most importantly, it's great that you are recognising and coming to terms with your sexuality. Each of us does it at a different time, and in a different way, of course, and we're all starting from different places. For you,actually having gay sex is clearly important at the moment, but I think you should realise that your experiences are your own, and other people may be very different. Accepting - indeed, embracing - this diversity is one of the important lessons that I think we can learn from our experiences of being gay, and therefore to some extent "different" from the social norm.
For myself, for example, sex is no biggie. Really, it isn't: what counts for me is love. I had a relationship of over a decade where no sex was involved! My current relationship features "occasional" sex - yes, I'd miss it if it stopped altogether, but the relationship would not be seriously jeopardised by it. That may partly because I've been living as an out gay man for around 35 years, so don't feel the pressures on the recently-realised or the coming-out, and is partly just how I am.
Secondly, I think you're being too dismissive of bisexuality. For me, it was a ten-year waystation, where I was genuinely attracted to both ,men and women throughout my teens. But my attraction to women eventually waned. For other people, it's a permanent state (as it is for the man I currently live with). I'm not sure why you're so down on it, unless you feel that it introduces an element of choice, and therefore the potential not to act on the same-sex attractions: perhaps that's connected with the notion of "sin".
This probably isn't the place for a long discussion on creationism, so I'll just say that my own religion (broadly Quaker) recognises that rationality is a great gift, and that any claimed authority (of person or writings) must be seen through that lens. Poetry - as many of us taken the differing Creation stories to be - is also, of course a great gift. Before you dismiss evolutionary theory, I think you need to find out a bit more about it, especially the timescales usually thought to be involved, and the fairly debatable notion of "species".
Now, as to the statement that He gives us, Cancer, AIDs, accidents of all sorts that make us unable to enjoy our lives as we did when we are young. That is the punishments for those that have sinned really bad or not fulfilled his reason for us being here. I'm afraid that this is one of the few areas where I don't think there's any legitimate ground for debate - it's simply claptrap. My partner was born HIV+, and it clearly isn't a punishment for sins he'd committed in the womb (although he's committed a fair few since he came out of it!). you might as well say that being born gay is "punishments for those that have sinned really bad" !
I know it's a struggle to reconcile your religious understandings with your recently-acknowledged sexuality. It's a struggle that many here, in one way or another, have gone through, or are till going through. There are plenty here very happy to share their own understandings, whether they've eventually arrived at a religious, agnostic or atheist position. But if we're going to make this a productive discussion, I think we all have to realise that each of our "truths" or understandings, while they may work for us, are very partial and incomplete: that appreciating and trying to understand the views of others, or at least to treat them seriously, is a necessary starting point.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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Well, Kipper, if you have described a deity with accuracy then it is not one I want to go anywhere near. Vengeful, spiteful and unfair, that's the one. The deity of the christians is a pretty unpleasant fellow. He relies on subjugation and fear. Interestingly so did the Roman Empire, and they ruled the middle east back then. It always amuses me how well the Romans perverted the teachings of a decent man or men, and turned it into a scheme to control their subjugated lands. How fitting that the latest Roman Emperor is about to be elected by a secret society.
But I accept and acknowledge that folk have an absolute right to believe in this rather nasty, narrow minded, spite-filled, bigoted deity. Consider, though, one thing: why does it require human beings to gather in specific buildings and perform rhythmic chanting on certain days of the week? What does it get out of that? Does it need its fuel tank refilled with some sort of psychic energy? If so then it's using every participant for self gratification. If not then is it just playing with the folk like a kid does with toy soldiers? Maybe it's a juvenile deity and these are toy soldiers?
I'm more interested in living as decent a life as I can. I'm a gay man, though I came to admitting it late. I'm not proud nor ashamed. I am neutral, mostly. Sex with another male would be amazing, I know it would. But I am married. So I have a life of masturbation fantasies. I know this, my friends know this, my wife knows and accepts this. We have a good life almost all the time. I do very little harm, and some good. I try to do more good than harm.
I value the sacrifices of the generations who went before me. I hope my life helps those who come after me. I hate dogmatic people and love irony. I try to pay good things done to and for me forward to others, asking them to do the same. I wish your deity were like that.
[Updated on: Fri, 08 March 2013 21:55]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13750
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I'm not so sure. Reading a third time shows me a diatribe against a priesthood...
There is more here than meets the eye 
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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