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I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love. Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving! We have had to make new membership moderated to combat the huge number of spammers who register
Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76275/#msg_76275
Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin. My help has been in topping (careful!) and tailing it, and turning his work into pages here, plus creating the index page to the segment. I also migrated the couple of cues into the same segment.
Bensiamin has not been alone in his work. I'll leave it to him to mention others
I'm sure you have material to contribute. So contribute. He'll tell you how.]]>timmy2019-11-26T10:27:03-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76282/#msg_76282
There will likely be errors identified, especially in the table, so please comment and send them my way. Any other material for consideration I am also happy to receive. The pages will make some uncomfortable, perhaps even angry, and that's certainly not the intent. This is not an anti-faith scree. Rather, it is an attempt to objectively set forth the factual and historic role that religion has had in the anti-homosexual mindset that is still far too common in many so-called advanced societies.
As Timmy says on the landing page for the section, "The good news is that you have no reason to stop believing in the faith, the deity or deities, the religon you wish to follow," conversely "No faith? No deity? Atheist? Agnostic? Humanist? That's ok, too." The purpose is to provide some objective information, especially for those trying to sort out their sexual identity, and who are struggling with what their religion tells them not just about homosexuality, but about themselves! That's where I was over twenty years ago when I found this site, and it's resources were a life saver for me!]]>Bensiamin2019-11-27T01:32:45-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76283/#msg_76283
Teddy2019-11-27T02:42:47-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76286/#msg_76286
Many thanks to all who had a helping hand it assembling, compiling, organizing, editing, and making it available. The information in there takes some time to completely digest. I hope it can be helpful to many over the years.]]>Bisexual_Guy2019-11-27T17:20:18-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76289/#msg_76289
American_Alex2019-11-28T15:57:44-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76291/#msg_76291
....a bit like saying the best way to deal with homosexuality is to be straight...
]]>cm2019-11-28T23:53:12-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76295/#msg_76295
"cm wrote on Thu, 28 November 2019 23:53"
That may be so, but there are plenty of people who feel differently. These pages on the site are designed for them rather than those with your views. It seems somewhat intolerant to just dismiss the difficulties that some people of faith have by telling them to simply abandon their closely and sincerely held beliefs.
....a bit like saying the best way to deal with homosexuality is to be straight...
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I am atheist in all my thinking, yet I welcome these pages, encouraged them. I recognise that others have a right to their belief systems. I disagree with the basis of their belief systems, yet I know they are firmly held beliefs. While those beliefs do me no harm I hold them to be harmless. They help those who believe in them
As a person who adores males over females I have tried to be one who adores females over males. I have failed. Trying and failing hurt me, and badly.
Your assessment, cm, of that post is on the money, and put better than I was able]]>timmy2019-11-29T00:27:23-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76297/#msg_76297
"cm wrote on Thu, 28 November 2019 15:53"
That may be so, but there are plenty of people who feel differently. These pages on the site are designed for them rather than those with your views. It seems somewhat intolerant to just dismiss the difficulties that some people of faith have by telling them to simply abandon their closely and sincerely held beliefs.
....a bit like saying the best way to deal with homosexuality is to be straight...
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Thank you for these words, cm. Well said.
With that, I'll quit while I'm ahead! 😮😇😊]]>Teddy2019-11-29T01:10:52-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76301/#msg_76301
A Place of Safety: I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love. Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking not the person giving!
As has been said, being religious or having faith is a personal choice. It certainly isn't necessary or appropriate to push the extreme alternative of atheism, which also happens to be a choice. To do so misses the whole point of mythology and spirituality. Mythology answers the big questions, spirituality has to do with a sense of peace and purpose. There is a lot to be said for achieving a sense of peace and purpose, by whatever means, especially given the world we live in.
]]>Bensiamin2019-11-29T04:54:05-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76302/#msg_76302
Well, that's not true I have to admit, If it can be called a "belief system" it would be Love. But then all great philosophies have said this.]]>arich2019-11-29T05:25:53-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76303/#msg_76303
I took from American Alex's comment that it would be a good move to abandon those formal religions (especially the anti-homosexual sects), but I don't think he was talking about belief in general (so no need to crucify the guy).
When you start with religion as a topic you might expect strong reactions, one only needs to look at our history. The - how to deal with religious sects - guide pages essentially advocate finding a more tolerant branch of one of these formal religious bodies so you may continue to practice your religion. I'm not sure what you do if you are Muslim, but that's an aside.
There does however exists a strong anti-formal religion sect opinion that holds the premise (referred to by American Alex) that the best thing for humanity would be the demise of those sects and not their continued support (given their atrocious history). That is not at all saying one should abandon belief in God, but one should abandon being a member of a (harmful) sect.
There is nothing wrong or bad with joining together in worship and praise, finding solice in a group. However, the history of these major formal religions leads to the conclusion that they serve the people who head them and imprison their adherents, wrapped in guilt and fear. They have a history of persecution, secrecy, and atrocity; are exclusive and excluding of those who do not conform; and would convert the whole of humanity to their beliefs (often leaving a choice of convert or die).
Whilst pages about aiding people who are held captive within these formal religions is meant to be positive it nevertheless promulgates their existence and support, when a better solution might be to abandon these sects, but not abandon your beliefs. Is it possible to be part of a Christian sect as a gay person today because that sect has modernised their beliefs, when in the past they would probably have burnt you at the stake? ]]>Talo Segura2019-11-29T08:09:03-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76310/#msg_76310
American_Alex2019-11-29T15:24:09-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76311/#msg_76311
"American_Alex wrote on Fri, 29 November 2019 15:24"
This is the crux of the argument between those who are religious and those who are atheist. Spirituality, faith, and honor are constructs which can and do exist outside of religious dogma, despite the protestations of those from religious communities. The very basis of theism in general is that one group is preferred, while those not a part of that group are shunned. At the root of it, that makes it essentially the same as prejudice, sexism, nationalism, and homophobia, despite all the illogical convolutions which theologians do to make it more palatible to the uneducated masses.
--
nonetheless, the purpose was to alert folk to the fact that these pages exist now, and in one place. We can rail against injustices or perceived injustices, or praise religion and praise faith, but neither of those are important.
That I cannot conceive of a secret scary deity in the sky makes me no better and no worse than someone who can, and I have no more and no less right than they to my opinions.
When I die I will either find nothing, or that I am wrong. When they die they will either find they are correct or will find nothing. Of course the paradox is that one cannot find nothing.
So, if a discussion on the merits or otherwise of religion, faith and none of the above is wanted, create another thread on it, please. This thread is for discussion the pages that are present]]>timmy2019-11-29T16:41:22-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76315/#msg_76315
"American_Alex wrote on Fri, 29 November 2019 07:24"
The very basis of theism in general is that one group is preferred, while those not a part of that group are shunned. At the root of it, that makes it essentially the same as prejudice, sexism, nationalism, and homophobia, despite all the illogical convolutions which theologians do to make it more palatible to the uneducated masses.
--
Actually this is not true. If one takes the time to look at Christ's message, for instance, it's exactly the opposite of that. As are the messages of many others including the Eastern Religions.
Nearly everything Christ's followers have done since his day, however, is a human construct that does exactly what you said. So in short, it's not the message that is an ass, it's the messenger that has perverted the message in order to assign himself power, wealth, and authority over others. ]]>Teddy2019-11-29T19:11:31-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76318/#msg_76318
"American_Alex wrote on Fri, 29 November 2019 08:24"
The very basis of theism in general is that one group is preferred, while those not a part of that group are shunned.
--
Unfortunatly, those claims are not only the basis of organized religion. Take a look at the teachings of Hitler, for example. If you weren't of the "Arayan race," you were inferior, and he did everything he ever did based on that non-religious belief. First, by maintaining that all people of German descent (read: those he defined as Arayans) should live in a single nation. Then that said people should rule the rest of the world. He even went so far as to say that certain specific groups should be put into concentration camps and ultimately put to death (not only Jews, but other groups such as gypsies, homosexuals, and those with physical or mental disabilities) because they threatened Arayan purity.
There were others in history who also did horrible things, and none of them did what they did in the name of religion; in fact, some were, at least outwardly, atheists (Stalin, Chairman Mao, and Pol Pot were each responsible for the deaths of millions in the name of nationalism, just as Hitler was, and each opperated under an atheistic political system - communism).
Now, have there been people who have done very, very bad things in the name of religion? Oh, absolutely. I'm not trying to claim otherwise, because anyone who's ever studied history on even a basic level know that was an incorrect statement. But on the other hand, there have been people who were avoded atheists who have done things that were just as bad in the name of things other than religion, or even in the name of atheism, which could be argued to be a sort of religion as well, or at least a set of religious beliefs stating what its adherants believe about God, souls, heaven, etc. (namely, claiming that such things do not exsist).
So I don't think that saying"We need to abandon it because a few people did bad things in its name" is something that should be used as an arguement for abandoning religion, because if we did that, we'd have to abandon a lot of other things as well, because other people have done bad things in the names of those things as well.]]>Mark2019-11-29T21:07:14-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76330/#msg_76330
"American_Alex wrote on Fri, 29 November 2019 15:24"
The very basis of theism in general is that one group is preferred, while those not a part of that group are shunned. At the root of it, that makes it essentially the same as prejudice, sexism, nationalism, and homophobia, despite all the illogical convolutions which theologians do to make it more palatible to the uneducated masses.
--
That turns out not to always be the case. There are plenty of theists among British Quakers (as well as very nearly as many who would describe themselves as atheists). There isn't a theology,and they don't believe in any dogma, but in questioning and sharing understanding. It is a central shared understanding that there is "of God / of the light" in every human (however one understands that), and any form of exclusion is contrary to Quaker testimony.
I'm proud that Quakers here were one of the major groups pushing to be allowed to conduct religious same-sex marriages (when the original UK government proposal was for civil marriages only).]]>NW2019-12-01T13:57:09-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76331/#msg_76331
No is not an alternative. Campbell's big point was that we need a new mythology for the age in which we live, rather than trying to force fit a 5,000 year-old mythology into modern times. Instead of offering that type of alternative, much of atheism (a la Christopher Hitchins and Richard Dawkins) has become strident, focusing on belittling those that believe anything, berating their stupidity and demonstrating insensitivity and intolerance while they're at it!
]]>Bensiamin2019-12-01T16:29:51-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76332/#msg_76332
"Bensiamin wrote on Sun, 01 December 2019 16:29"
It goes without saying that atheism is a position that anyone is entitled to, as Timmy points out, just as one is entitled to a generic belief in spirituality, or a more formalized faith or religious belief. Campbell's work in mythology, corroborated by others, is that human nature requires something to address the big questions of life. The shortcoming of most of atheism, in my view, is that it doesn't offer an alternative.
No is not an alternative. Campbell's big point was that we need a new mythology for the age in which we live, rather than trying to force fit a 5,000 year-old mythology into modern times. Instead of offering that type of alternative, much of atheism (a la Christopher Hitchins and Richard Dawkins) has become strident, focusing on belittling those that believe anything, berating their stupidity and demonstrating insensitivity and intolerance while they're at it!
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I think one can be perfecty content with being atheist without evangelising atheisim. If one evangelises it then it becomes a de facto religion, albeit with no deity.
Choice is key. I can choose a deity and choose to be content by throwing all my intellect and emotion into worship of that choice, or I can choose none and be content with that.
Isn't Buddhism a deity-free religion? What an irony for Buddha that he wanted no worship of himself though.]]>timmy2019-12-01T17:41:56-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76334/#msg_76334
"Mark wrote on Fri, 29 November 2019 21:07"
Unfortunatly, those claims are not only the basis of organized religion. Take a look at the teachings of Hitler, for example.
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It was suggested that Hitler was a professed devout Roman Catholic
Odd, then, how his behaviour was in complete contravention of the teachings of that particular organisation, but ironic that he could have confessed his sins and expressed contrition on a regular basis and been forgiven in the eyes of their deity, or at least by the black cloaked alleged representative in his local church]]>timmy2019-12-02T01:26:16-00:00Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9313/76336/#msg_76336
"timmy wrote on Sun, 01 December 2019 18:26"
"Mark wrote on Fri, 29 November 2019 21:07"
Unfortunatly, those claims are not only the basis of organized religion. Take a look at the teachings of Hitler, for example.
--
It was suggested that Hitler was a professed devout Roman Catholic
Odd, then, how his behaviour was in complete contravention of the teachings of that particular organisation, but ironic that he could have confessed his sins and expressed contrition on a regular basis and been forgiven in the eyes of their deity, or at least by the black cloaked alleged representative in his local church
--
Which is, if I had been politely asked about in my original comments, I would have happily expanded upon. Yes, most facists of the 30's and 40's were at least raised in a formally organized religion. (It should also be noted that even many who were later Communists had at least some formal religious contact during their youth - for example, Pol Pot, the infamous Communist leader of Cambodia who was responsible for the deaths of millions, attended a Catholic school in France in his youth.)
What I had hoped to indicate (and yes, perhaps did not emphasise very well in my last post) was that just because someone was raised in a particular line of beliefs (whether religious or secular) does not mean that they always follow said teachings as adults. Hilter, among other things, was reportedly a very big fan of Martin Luther, and some have even accused Hitler of being obsessed with the occult (the Indiana Jones movies were not entirely without basis, as among the occult items of fame that he is said to have had his followers actively look for did indeed include the Ark of the Covenant and the Holy Grail). Either one alone was hardly the habit of a "good little Catholic boy." And of course, as you have mentioned, most of his activities upon his rise to power as chancellor of Germany were not exactly in accordance with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, or even in mainstream Christianity in general. If I were to describe his belief system in a nutshell, I would say that he believed whatever he thought would bring him power, even if they were inconsistent with his upbringing. If he could ever be conisdered a Catholic for most of his adult life, it was largely in name only.
What I had also hoped to emphasise is that I object to the idea that theism is bad because a few people who outwardly claimed a connection (no matter how loose said connection was) to religion but who did very bad things, and therefore all religion of any sort should be eliminated because of that. Communism did just that, and still those who followed it (Stalin, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao) did things that were just as bad as people like Hitler ever did. (I fully believe that even if there had never been religion in the world, Hitler would still very likely have risen to power and did most, if not all, of the things he actually did; the only difference is that he would have had to blame someone other than the Jews for Germany's woes.) The only thing that was different was the specific banner under which they rallied their followers.
Yes, organized religion often has its faults. Unorganized religion often has its faults. No religion at all often has its faults. While there have been very bad people who have done very bad things in the name of religion and atheism both (and who, unfortunately, will continue to do so), I cannot, I will not, blame all the good people who follow a particular set of beliefs for the actions of a small handful of nutjobs who say they follow said beliefs but whose actions say otherwise. To do otherwise would make me just as bad in many ways as the very people I would seek to condemn.]]>Mark2019-12-02T03:49:11-00:00