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I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love. Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving! We have had to make new membership moderated to combat the huge number of spammers who register
Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77861/#msg_77861
I sat down to write the other day when my muse started up on one of his rare, inspirational jags, and before I was done for the day I was just a couple hundred words shy of 40,000. To this point I've not divided it up into chapters, and I'm definitely not done with the story. My question is this: What is your idea of a good chapter length. I'm thinking 5-6 K as a good length but wonder what some of the rest of you story writers think?]]>Teddy2021-06-11T03:57:24-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77862/#msg_77862
How to know when it is Finished will bring you towards the answer.
You need to consider the purpose of chapters. What do they signify? If you are just makkng random breaks so the reader can go and pee or poo, that is not a chapter's purpose.]]>timmy2021-06-11T05:59:38-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77863/#msg_77863
But the fact is that I'm not asking this question so much in an effort to gain some sort of advice as to a magic number that a chapter must have in order to be done correctly. I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious what length, if any, the rest of the authors here have as a target for their chapters.
For me, when all is said and done with this story it will be broken up into chapters of approximate equal length, give or take a thousand words or so, but the breaks will also come in places that are naturally good stopping places, or at least that's the goal. Some may end with a bit of suspense and others may end when the protagonist in the tale falls asleep for the night. ]]>Teddy2021-06-11T07:24:25-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77864/#msg_77864
That said, my opinion of chapter size may different from the ideas of many others.
My favorite authors vary widely in chapter length. I have seen chapters as short as a thousand words, and as long as 20,000+ words (though the long ones like that usually frustrate me a bit). My favorite of recently read stories (defined as having been published and read in the last three months) has chapters ranging from 2,619 words to 7,988 words. But the story was one of the best I've read in a long time. The chapter breaks were at reasonable places in the story, and did not interrupt the flow at all, with two or three cliffhangers, depending on an individual's definition of cliffhanger.
In print books, some of the worst chapters I've seen is where an author or editor arbitrairily forces a chapter to be roughly the same length, unless it is an epilogue or prologue. That is my opinion. Other opinions may vary widely.]]>Bisexual_Guy2021-06-11T07:59:07-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77865/#msg_77865
"Teddy wrote on Fri, 11 June 2021 08:24"
On the other hand presenting a story that's 170,000 words long without chapter breaks can be problematic for the reader for any number of reasons. Also I'm not a big fan of the writing school that says we must leave some sort of cliff hanger or other suspense filled break between chapters. That gets particularly annoying, at least for me! LOL
But the fact is that I'm not asking this question so much in an effort to gain some sort of advice as to a magic number that a chapter must have in order to be done correctly. I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious what length, if any, the rest of the authors here have as a target for their chapters.
For me, when all is said and done with this story it will be broken up into chapters of approximate equal length, give or take a thousand words or so, but the breaks will also come in places that are naturally good stopping places, or at least that's the goal. Some may end with a bit of suspense and others may end when the protagonist in the tale falls asleep for the night.
--
One may, of course, 'sectionalise' and indicate sectiins with a printed device.
What matters most is flow.]]>timmy2021-06-11T08:04:35-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77866/#msg_77866
As for chapter size, I do believe over long chapters can deter readers. I'm pretty sure I know the author to whom BG is referring. If so, he discovered from posting on another site where readers figures are visible, that if he posted his stories as a whole they obtained far fewer readers than if he posted in chapters of the length mentioned.
I am definitely of the view that chapters of not more than around 5-6000 words are the best option. Indeed, it seems that the 2-4000 area is the most common seen there. I suspect, although I have no evidence to support this, the preference for short chapters may be driven by the number who read on mobile devices.]]>ivor slipper2021-06-11T08:58:03-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77867/#msg_77867
In a real book, I'm happy to read a novel with chapters about thirty pages in length but on a screen I like more frequent breaks, not necessarily new chapters but breaks indicated by a subtitle or a row of asterisks. The chapters in my current story, The Au Pair Boy, are about 2,500 words in length. If faced with story of say 20,000 words with no breaks I think I'd give up fairly quickly.]]>Jolyon Lewes2021-06-11T12:16:05-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77868/#msg_77868
As a reader, if the story is moving along and I'm engaged, a short chapter at 2,500 words is not a problem--in fact it can (should?) add drama and excitement. Correspondingly, a longer one that runs over 10,000 words is fine if it's engaging and the story is moving. It's all in the story. I try to write with a target range of 7,000 words per chapter(or 15 pages in Word, the word processor I use), and then adjust accordingly. Most run over, but the important thing is that as I'm writing I know subconsciously that I'm trying to develop this part of the story within a certain size frame. I also find doing so leads to much less editing afterwards. Like the old saying 'begin with the end in mind.'
Tim summed it up: what matters most is flow. In my mind the assurance of that flow comes from a flexible framework.]]>Bensiamin2021-06-11T15:16:16-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77869/#msg_77869
"Quote:"
"ivor slipper wrote on Fri, 11 June 2021 01:58"
40,000 words in a day Teddy - that's very impressive! I'm lucky if I can manage 4,000 :).
--
Well, You have to understand the 40,000 words was simply writing wihout looking back. I struck on a storry concept, settled quickly on the beginning, the end, and how I wanted to get from one to the other, or in other words what I wanted the story to accomplish. From there my muse took over and I wrote. No editing, no going back over previous sentences or paragraphs, nothing but letting the muse tell the storry, mistakes, unproductive side trips and all.
That type of poductivity is rare for me, when I do write. I figure I'm maybe between 1/2 and 2/3 done with the tale at this point then comes the hard work of going over all that work irioning out all the rough spots and removing all the inconsistencies, etc. For me that's what's the most time consuming. When I'm finished with that, hopefully my editor/beta reader won't have too much to do when I send it off to her! lol]]>Teddy2021-06-13T03:53:49-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77870/#msg_77870
35,000 words short story on the site. There was, and is, no way of breaking it into chapters. When I wrote it the stream of consciousness was such that there was no pausing, no breaks. I wrote it on holiday, in pencil on paper, and trabnscriubed it. As I did so I edited it. Editing it showed me no break points.
I only know it to be 35k because I asked Open Office to tell me just now. I had thought it to be longer.
Only our readers can judge if the length of a tale is fine, and that is because the writing either gets them to the end or does not. So, again, I come back to flow. Does the flow carry you forwards, inexorably, to the end?
If it does not, will breaking it into chapters improve that or just offer a handy fire exit to the bored reader?]]>timmy2021-06-13T07:18:33-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77873/#msg_77873
]]>Merkin2021-06-15T15:32:59-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77874/#msg_77874
"ivor slipper wrote on Fri, 11 June 2021 08:58"
40,000 words in a day Teddy - that's very impressive! I'm lucky if I can manage 4,000 :).
As for chapter size, I do believe over long chapters can deter readers. I'm pretty sure I know the author to whom BG is referring. If so, he discovered from posting on another site where readers figures are visible, that if he posted his stories as a whole they obtained far fewer readers than if he posted in chapters of the length mentioned.
I am definitely of the view that chapters of not more than around 5-6000 words are the best option. Indeed, it seems that the 2-4000 area is the most common seen there. I suspect, although I have no evidence to support this, the preference for short chapters may be driven by the number who read on mobile devices.
--I have posted long stories as one continuous file, and have received both positive and negative comments from readers on the practice. Even though the stories were posted as one file, there were clear breaks in the action every so often, where a reader could stop if needed. The general consensus was that it was too much trouble to scroll back through a single file and find the place where a reader had left off, and that clear chapters are preferred.
The end result is that I TRY to write in chapters now, as most people felt it is simply easier to read a story that way. Reading 40,000 words all in one sitting takes time, and people are busy. Having chapters simply gives readers a place to stop for the time being, if they need that. And, some readers LIKE to have stories posted in chapters, so that they can look forward to the next one.
I still often write a story as one file, and then separate it into chapters at the natural breaks in the action, which results in chapters of varying length. But I am also writing some stories in distinct chapters now, and keeping them to a more uniform length. A concession to uniformity for the reader's sake.
I prefer chapter lengths around 7500 words, myself, when reading. A multitude of separate, very short chapters is irritating to me. Just my opinion.
]]>Geron Kees2021-06-15T15:41:48-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77875/#msg_77875
I myself prefer reading chapters that tend to be in the 2,500 to 3,500 word general area, though 4,000 is no problem. But how interesting and capitivating the chapter is should be taken into accout. A relatively quiescent one probalby is best if it's short. An action-filled, exciting one can be longer and still hold the readers' attention.
When I write, I tend to want my chapters to fall into the above specified lengths, and I write them with that in mind, which then means the flow and pace will accommodate that length. So I have a goal with each chapter: to have it meaningful and move the story forward but to have it come to a natural, unforced resting spot at its end.
There is a problem writing for online posting that isn't there with published works that I feel we have to keep in mind. Published works frequently have long and short chapters mixed together. What we have to be aware of is that the reader is stuck with waiting for the next installment before moving on. If a book has a 1,200 word chapter and the reader wants more, he can simply keep reading. Not so for us. So I rarely write short chapters. Doesn't seem fair to the reader.
Oh, and Timmy's right that short stories can be any length. It's chapter stories that need more planning.[/font-size]]]>cole parker2021-06-17T23:27:40-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77876/#msg_77876
"cole parker wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 23:27"
There is a problem writing for online posting that isn't there with published works that I feel we have to keep in mind. Published works frequently have long and short chapters mixed together. What we have to be aware of is that the reader is stuck with waiting for the next installment before moving on. If a book has a 1,200 word chapter and the reader wants more, he can simply keep reading. Not so for us. So I rarely write short chapters. Doesn't seem fair to the reader.
--
As a reader, I can't deny that I feel a bit let down if an installment is less than, say, 3000 words, especially if previous installments have been significantly longer. Like buying a product where the box is twice the size it needs to be for the contents.
However, as a scribbler, I feel it a courtesy to the reader to mark changes of scene etc to indicate suitable places to break for a pee or if the reader doesn't have the time available to get right to the end of the chapter/short story.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the overall length of the full novel. An author asked me to look at a story for him. We both had reservations about it's length at 120+ chapters, which would represent a committment by readers to follow it for the best part of a year even if installments were posted three times a week. Although the chapters were between 3000 and 5000 words, I suggested it might appear less daunting for readers to combine the chapters in pairs so only hitting them with around 60 chapters, even though the total number of words remained the same. If I remember correctly, quite fortuitously, the combined 8000 word chapters were much nearer to all being the same length.
]]>Pedro2021-06-18T11:16:15-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77877/#msg_77877
"cole parker wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 16:27"
There is a problem writing for online posting that isn't there with published works that I feel we have to keep in mind. Published works frequently have long and short chapters mixed together. What we have to be aware of is that the reader is stuck with waiting for the next installment before moving on. If a book has a 1,200 word chapter and the reader wants more, he can simply keep reading. Not so for us. So I rarely write short chapters. Doesn't seem fair to the reader.
--
Which brings up a whole other sub-topic. I've seen others say, though not many, that like me they prefer to wait till an online tale is complete before reading it. For those of us who do that, chapter size or chapters at all, are not quite same issue, but only lend to the ease of what a couple of you have already mentioned, i.e., stopping for a pee break or another margarita, in much the same as putting in a page break or devider indicating a break in the time flow or change of venue for the tale being told.
All of which was one of the reasons I asked this question in the first place, because for me, the binge reader, chapters are not as relevant as they are to those of you who prefer the serialized format.
Timmy mentioned his longer "stream of consiciousness" tale he wrote, which is pretty much what the first 40,000 words of my current tale are. Since that initial burst of creativity life has gotten in the way and I'm only doing a few hundred words at a time, due to the need to earn a living. At any rate, like Timmy says, the stream of consciousness aproach tends to complicate the whole chapter concept. Still, I think I will be able to divide the tale up into chapter sections that don't detract from the overall readability.]]>Teddy2021-06-19T18:42:10-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77878/#msg_77878
luvtwinks2021-06-19T20:11:06-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77880/#msg_77880
But then, kind of like how Pedro and Teddy have brought up, sometimes I take a look at older stories (here or on sites like Nifty), and if they consist of a huge amount of chapters, I'm more likely to turn around and go start looking at other stories to read. I don't even stop long enough to see if the chapters themselves are long or short.
I don't know if there should be a "set" length for chapters. I know that when I wrote "An Apprentice's Adventures," I wrote it in a single file and then divided it up into chapters of roughly equal length (about 10 pages, give or take) once I was through. If I were to write another multi-chapter story, would the chapters there be of similar length? I don't know. I remember that when Timmy first approached me about publishing "Adventures" here, we talked a bit about other stuff that I'd either written or was working on, and we did briefly discuss a story that I'd started prior to "Adventures" but had never finished (one reason was that I was writing each chapter in separate files, and was unhappy with the length of each of the chapters I'd written so far - about 3 pages each).]]>Mark2021-06-21T01:53:14-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77881/#msg_77881
The longest single-chapter story I have on this site is 13000 words (the latest one where I wanted to write about asexuality). My initial instinct was that too long for a single instalment, and so I sent it to Timmy as both a single and a two-part story. I asked Timmy to pick whichever he felt worked better. He chose the single instalment option - and there's no doubt he was right. His reason? That it simply flowed better that way. Which kind of underlines the point he made first in this thread that it really IS about flow and not length. ]]>cm2021-06-21T15:19:06-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77887/#msg_77887
timmy2021-06-27T19:58:56-00:00Re: Chapter Size
https://forum.iomfats.org/./mv/msg/9459/77888/#msg_77888
"timmy wrote on Sun, 27 June 2021 12:58"
Flow is an interesting topic I have a firm belief that the only thing that should interfere with flow is the end of a story. Thus, if a chapter end interferes with the flow the chapter has ended poorly or the next has started poorly. Reading must flow over chapter ends. That does not prevent a change of pace, a change of point of veiw, a time (or other) jump from happening at a chapter break, but it must flow well.
--
It might be good to define what is meant by the term "flow".
For me, it's a good flow if it doesn't leave me scratching my head going, "Wait... What???" or wondering if I missed something by mistakenly turning two pages instead of one. ]]>Teddy2021-06-28T01:48:47-00:00