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a quote from the movie "stigmata," also believed to be part of rare scroll whose existance was denied by the Vatican:
The kingdom of God is within you and all around you. It is not within buildings of wood or stone. Split a piece of wood and you will find me. Look beneath a stone and I am there.
i always liked that, and it seems like a lot could be smoothed, if only.
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The vatacan denies many many books.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Who is fostering their beliefs on anyone..What was asked and mentioned was if THAT SOMEONE had ANY beliefs to start with and just plain decent people dont chew around the edges of another person for their jollies!!!..rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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This thread has so much potential to raise hackles that everyone has to play nice.
I dontp; expect direct criticisms ofothers in it. The vbiews expressed will be very personal. By all means ask for clarification, but that is as far as one can go here.
Well reasoned views are required. no more and no less.
They need not be long, but they do need to be well expressed.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I don't understand why we look inside boxes and put inside a box that which I see as unbounded or bound by our feable imaginations.
Now it's been a while since I attended bible study so I could use some help on this. I seem to remember a passage somewhere in which one of the patriaches in genesis wrestled with a celestial being (God?)over the erection of a stone as a place of worship. The objection to this being that God did not dwell in a stone but in the hearts of human kind, it seems to me there was mention of there also being no need for priest or kings either.
Another thing that has always bothered me is why do we seek other people if we want to find God, I mean if I am right about the passage I mentioned it would seem that The Great spirit is inclusive not exclusive.
Truth at best is always subjective and even more here. Are there immutable truths? I think I see some but here again that is subjective.
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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In the UK we have had wars over religion and the church. Internal wars. We had Henry VII: RC; Henry VIII RC until he was not allowed a divorce, and then declared independence; Edward II (no idea,and too young); Mary: RC and burned protestants alive; Elizabeth I; Protestant and burned RCs alive.
Edward II would have loved this message board. He was one of us. He lost his throne (and his life) because of the favours he showered on his b/f Piers Gaveston. (He died a very gruesome death at the hands of a group of his barons: a red hot poker was stuffed up... well, I'll leave you to finish that one.) Christopher Marlowe - a contemporary of Shakespeare and also one of us - wrote a wonderful play about Edward II.
However, if you meant the son of Henry VIII then you meant Edward VI (what are 4 digits between friends?) He was rabidly protestant and died very young.
Sorry to be so pedantic. You know I love you.
 )
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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of course I meant the VI!
It was via a cow horn. The king's Body must not be allowed to show a wound. But we digress.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I believe everyone has the right to his or her own beliefs. Yours are as valid as mine.
Core values, seems to beg the question: Do we require religion to supply our values? Or is it possible to have values despite a lack of religion in your life?
I think some require it and some don't. Many good and kind people in this world do not go to church. And others go every week.
Both sets of people have values. And both sets of people have value.
Cherish them all.
As for 'dislike', I disagree but will let that go.
Peace and Love,
And may God bless you,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Thumps the bible, saying that my views or opinions are bad just becaues they conflict with their views....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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WHAT values?...Describe please....rob
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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I just Knew that some would fall into my carefully laid trap when I mentioned CORE VALUES...Core means intrinsic or center,as in the center of the earth.A tiny child,most believe,is born with certain instincts.Some will call this as being a conscience...Now I must return to earth...rob
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I walked into that with my eyes wide open. I just think some people are good and some not. You need only look to the headlines to see bad people in both areas.
We need to look a bit harder for the good ones.
Live and Love, (for JAMS as well since he mixes em sometimes .... hehe)
Levin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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A solution if I may be so bold to offer is to substitute MECHANISM for religion...Afterall religion is simply the mechanics that people employ in reverence to whatever deity they worship..Why the anger at someone that values a love of GOD and faith??????????....rob
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Girl--you make good sense. Every post you have made is a delight to read..Very refreshing..the outlook that you present on this board is astonishing...Stick around kiddo this place NEEDS you!!!!!!..rob
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No Message Body
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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read carefully (all) posts
[the word (all) replaces the name that was posted here previously. The message is better directed at all people than at one, and that one perosn took reasonable offence at being named, so I editted it out - timmy]
[Updated on: Fri, 19 September 2003 13:45] by Moderator |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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timmy wrote:
> This is a topic for true discussion. It is not one for seeking to convert others to one's own view. Each "side" of such a discussion will always be right, you see. So the objective is to understand different views.
>
> We must also recognise that there are different faiths here as well as different religions. And that no faith or no religion is the state for some people. We can do this without getting angry, without raised hackles and witout making those of one persuasion feel picked on by those of another. So let's do it. We have a huge wealth of brainpower, and of exerience here.
I am registering some exasperation here. I said right at the start that no-one had the monopoly on being right, and yet I am starting to see "points scoring behaviours".
I am not keen on references to bible thumping, to traps and the like, nor am I keen on triumphalism and self hugging. There is nothing to be smug about in having a faith. It is to give one's self inner comfort that one has it, or to explain otherwise bewildering phenomomena. I am not right and you wrong, nor you right and I wrong.
So, again, play nice. Prove to me that you can discuss an adult topic as adults, whatever age you are, and whatever your convictions about deities or lack thereof.
If I break your skull with a cricket bat I see your brains spill out, but I do not understand what is inside your head. So put the weapons down and grow up, all those who fight.:'-(
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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We will drop this now ..... I will not provoke mor name calling.... the end
Thank you
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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PLease think both of the example set and the audience's perception. I make this post here not to single out any one perosn but to single out any and all such instances.
The post above is simply an example of posts that have no place here. I iintend to flag all such posts. I hit this one first.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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wow, thank you rob; very, very much.  i hope you had a happy day today.
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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You see, it is the very mechanistic ritual that turned me away from my faith.
I met people who declared the bible to be "inerrant" and thus fooled themselves into believing that mistranslations were verbatim correct. A trivial example (!) is the parting of the "Red" sea - a feat which would have required an inordinate quantyity of "deity power", when it was another, shallower, marshy "sea" that was crossed, needing minimal deity power and maximal local knowledge of routes and tides. Anyone caught in Morecambe bay too far from the shore at low tide will know that even a galloping horse cannot outrun the swelling tide.
This is simply an example. But such examples showed me that peole were gullible and easily parted from their money in support of a priesthood that was at best ill educated, and at worst practiced sophistry on a grand scale.
It seemed to me that either no deity could exist that allowed such things, or that the deity had a sense of humour and perpetuated a huge practical joke on the priesthood of judaic and christian faiths. In either case, at that point in my life, I wanted nothing to do with such a deity.
Because of that I still do not attend centres of worship, and choose my own prayers.
Most important, if I am mistaken, then the god in whom I believe will have infnite patience to talk this through with me at the right time.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Mechanics was simply a term.ie the operation of a engine--The mechanics (way) or a process of doing something....rob used a ten letter word and all jumped on him....rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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Doesn't matter how many letters it has or how few. It was precisely that ritual that maded me aware theat religion is not a good thing.
The higher ranking the cleric the finer his robes. Yet surely they should become simpler as his rank rises?
I don't think anyone jumped on you. There is nothing personal in this, surely?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Sweetheart YOU have made my day.Even with all the turmoil in your life you can still be cheerful and bright and lift a persons spirits--not by your pain,but by your boundles spirit.Found me a new site ,American western lore.Very family intensive,but sure interesting.Young orphen boys growing into manhood,young ladies growing into womenhood too.I bet the American fronteer was exciting,but it was cruel too.The treatment of orphens in the US is not a pretty story....HUGS...rob
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Peace to all.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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This is your board Timmy and I guess your word should be law but on that last response I would have added (this is only my opinion).You made it sound like religion is bad for all....rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The word used was "view"
View essentially is a matter of perspective.....
Example... You are at one side of a room.... I at the other.... If we are both looking at the same object.... we both will see things differently.... We still see the same object but to each it is different.
The same rules apply to concepts.... you look at an issue with your knowledge and experiences which allow you to evaluate the concept... However, my knowledge and experiences vary from yours and because of that the concept may hold a different meaning to me as it does to you.
No one is right... and no one is wrong.... it all.... just is
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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No Message Body
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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robert bryce wrote:
> This is your board Timmy and I guess your word should be law but on that last response I would have added (this is only my opinion).You made it sound like religion is bad for all....rob
It seems hardly necessaryu to do that. You see I am posting my opinion, as are you. I might argue with legitmacy that all posters should post "This is only my opinion"
But, having read the words you want, I will not use them. It is not "only" my opinion. It is my opinion. I express it clearly, and in a manner designed both to show my reasoning, and to show that the opinion is mine, and is personal.
From the evidence of my eyes and my ears, religion is bad for all. Note, please, that I have not said a thing about faith. I ap speaking about religion, no more and no less. And religion, as you have said so clearly is the mechanistic ritual of public expression of a faith which may or may not lie underneath. This italics are my words not yours, and those without italics are the words that you have used translated into the words I use.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Values are a learned trait. They are instilled by family as well as other influences as a childs circle of experiences begin to grow. Other influences are teachers, friends and their parents, religous leaders as well as public figures of authority.
Granted when a child is born he/she responds to the gentle cooing of the mother and father.... This apparently to the child is a good thing because the chile smiles.... Hence love....
The consciense is a concepy brought about by authority figures of all the categories mentioned above. It is the persons ability to weigh the pros and cons of right and wrong actions and behaviors.
On a sociological level, there is a wide diffential as to what is considered right and wrong according to the culture in which you are raised. What might be considered wrong in one culture might be considered an act of utmost heroism in another.
For instance, Here in the United States of America, it is illegal, immoral, and just plain considered to be in bad taste to participate in canabalism. On the other hand, in remote locals of Papua New Guinea there are some tribes that consider it acceptable to devour an enemy after he has been defeated.
These two opposing views of the same general concept are accepted in both areas.
Now is it right for a missionary to enter the tribe of New Guinea natives and summarilly condemn them for practicing canabalism?
I know my example was a bit extreem, but it is an extreem world in which we live. I needed an example that all persons with good consciense would agree that here it is considered wrong.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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You stand up for what you believe without degrading anyones opinion. You stated your views, and no one was "bashed" so to speak.
You and I don't always agree (though I agree with you here), but I respect your right to your views. As well as your 'free speech' right to express those views.
I believe we as a planet should stand by free speech as a natural law.
Only in my idealistic head so far.
Much love to you every day of your life,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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and i see a lot of very good people in the newspapers too just like here.we just have to learn to agree to disagree.I respect a person that has well thought out opinions and the life experience to support those views...rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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robert bryce wrote:
> and i see a lot of very good people in the newspapers too just like here.we just have to learn to agree to disagree.I respect a person that has well thought out opinions and the life experience to support those views...rob
How about a child, with no experience worth a candle, and opinions that are yet to be formed?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Even little kids can think just ask any young parent and you can bet the farm that their testing the parents limits all the time.Good effective and loving parents SHARE their values with their kids cause thats the right thing to do....rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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And the good and loving parent who is bigotted against a segment of society and passes that bigotry in a caring and loving way to their child as a value that "all decent people share". What of that parent?
And we come back then to the original question at the top of the entire thread.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But everyone has beliefs. It is impossible not to. Even is one does not believe they have to believe that they dont believe so invariably a nonbeliever believes.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Is it the right thing to do when the father drives through town and comments on comments of the group of black people waiting at the crosswalk with the "N" word used predominately?
The parent is exhibiting values..... His values.....
How can this be good fot the child?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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both these posts go beyond the bounds of being silly.It is beyond me that anyone can take the original post topic and twist it so.Any respectable person can readily see that these two above responses are patently absurd.There is a diference between teaching VALUES and teaching bigotry and hatered....rob
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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Many people's values are entrenched in bigotry. Their parents were taught, they were taught, they are teaching their children.
As Marc said, on a trip to the store, a parent can teach his child to cheat, to lie, to steal, to hate. All the child has to do is watch and learn.
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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i think bible thumping is one heck of a good pasttime...Sounds to me that a lot of people dont like thunking bibles or is it bibles that dont thunk or maybe people that dont thunk...hehehe...rob
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Re: When I meet someone........ 
Re: Church, Religion, Faith, Core Values. 
Sorry but .... 
Re: Church, Religion, Faith, Core Values. 
Spilled brains do not allow understanding 
*wholly bewildered* 
I am sorry Timmy ..... I did not mean to accuse anyone ... 
