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Hi Deeej, This isnt meant for you, yours is just the last post I got to befor I got mad.
Im young yeh, Ill agree with that, but im not stupid. I also tested in the top 2% in the nation (that might be why the dean of admissions at Harvard came to my school to talk to me). Ive talked to guys with multiple degrees, I even had the oportunity to talk to Steven Hawking, I really admire him, but as smart as all of them are, that doesnt mean they have common sence. Outside of mathamatics Einstein was dumb as a hand full of rocks. I said Im agnostic, I believe in God, just not the Christian one. Whoever god is, whatever he is, hes not a friend of the Christian churches. Ive read the bible and yeh I have one with red print whoopti do. Are yo uaware that none not one of the books of the new testament Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, were written by anyone who actually knew Jesus? The earliest was written 60 years after the death of Jesus. Are you aware that there are other books that have just as much clam to be in the bible as the ones that are there. did you know that the bible wasnt even a bible till around 300AD? It was put together at the council of Nice, ordered by Constantine. Im young but im not ignorant.
I dont believe for a minute that somehting happened to me when I was 2 months old and made me gay. That is a bit bizzar period. I sure dont want some religious Zelot, deciding that with some shnock treatments and prayers Im gonna be set str8t. that has been provben over and over not to work. Its nothing but pure torture for some kid whoes forced to undergo it. Because you wernt a true homosexual (bi or whatever), you could make a choice, but dont think thats for everyone. Someone wanna make me not gay, kill me, cause thats the only way your gonna stop me.
Sorry Deeej, guys, I need to go sit down.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Brian,
As that post wasn't intended for me I can't do much except respond very generally.
You are one of the most intelligent and interesting people, of any age, I have met online and I always value the content of your posts. You have been through a lot, you have a difficult life and I respect you enormously for coming through with your reason and sense of humour intact.
There's a reason I have tried to respond to every post countering mine, even if it drives me up the wall: I dislike being patronised, and I dislike being told I am wrong, without any useful evidence being given as to why I am wrong. I dislike the hypocrisy of being told on one hand that one must obey every single word in the Bible, as it is impossible that a single mistake could have crept in over centuries of copying, hearsay, translations, editing and so on -- even assuming that the original writers were genuine, which itself is pretty questionable -- and yet, peer-reviewed, impeccably researched, self-consistent and eminently sensible studies are discarded out of hand because they contradict what it says.
As for being "made" gay or not -- I don't believe for a second you chose it. I certainly chose nothing -- it just "happened". The machinations of the human brain are firmly within the domain of science and religion should have nothing to do with them. Whether science concludes that it is predetermined genetically or through environmental factors (and it may never be able to do either), the fact remains that many studies have already been done that conclude that it is not possible to change most people's sexuality. Anyone who states that it can be achieved for anyone (unless backed up by fantastically reliable evidence, which religious people themselves will never be able to provide as the results will be tainted by self-interest) is self-deluded or wrong.
Best wishes,
Deeej
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I chose my sexuality as soon as I knew I had an orientation that was "unacceptable". I am choosing to define sexuality as the outward expression of my orientation in precisley the same manner that religion is the outward expression of faith.
No-one ever said they have to match!
So, at 13, when I was finding to my horror that my orientation was gay, I made sure that my sexuality was wholly heterosexual.
I chased girls while wanting to chase boys. I seduced them, I made love to them (Actually I had sex with them, but they seemed to enjoy it), and I married one (out of love, but not out of orientation).
I express my sexuality to almost everyone as heterosexual. I have chosen my sexuality.
My orientation is widely apart from my sexuality. I have been unable to choose my orientation. My orientation is best expressed by what arouses me, both as porn and as erotic thoughts, anbd by what does not arouse me as porn or attempts at erotic thought.
I can become aroused by any story about sex, even heterosexual sex if well written, but not by pictures of naked female bodies, however well presented and beautiful.
I am aroused by pictures of attractive male bodies and by pretty much any story about homosexual sex, even if written badly.
My orientation is homosexual. But I have chosen my sexuality, the outward expression, as the sexuality diamttrically opposite to homosexuality. I need, want and crave male embrace, male company and male penetrative sex. I have no interest in female embrace, though enjoy company, and am uninterested in heterosexual penetrative sex.
None of my heterosexual experiences has been a bad experience. All have been pleasant, some erotic. I have not been "put off women"
So I am able to argue that "homosexuality is a choice" as far as my sexuality goes, but absolutely not as far as my orientation goes.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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So, Jim, what was that all about? Some interesting viewpoints, some flames, decent discussion, yet you are silent.
I don't think you left. And I know you are not a bigot. So what was it all about? What is wrong and what do you need?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Yes.....
They do.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Silfer wrote:
>(snip)
> And at last, a quote. "The mode of the religious is faith; the mode of the mystic is expirience" - ESR.
This quote intrigues me so much that I'm gonna have to think it over some more - I may start a new thread based on it.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I can't stay silent in the face of intellectual provocation!
First, Deeej is absolutely right in arguing that the words of the Bible cannot in themselves prove anything. Fundamentalists argue that it is the word of God and is thus literally true, but that is about as meaningful as insisting that the moon is made from cheese. If there is a God - and you'll remember that I'm an agnostic, not an atheist - then he certainly didn't pop down from Heaven one wet Friday afternoon and write it himself. It was written by men. Literalists will say that the writers were inspired by God - but where is their evidence for that? No doubt among the Biblical texts there are many which are the work of writers who believed themselves to be inspired (which doesn't of course mean that they actually WERE inspired) but equally many texts may not be the product of inspiration. It has to be remembered that the Jewish nation was led by a triumvirate comprising Prophet, Priest and King. Prophecy was a path to power, and it is impossible to believe that some individuals did not take that road with power in mind - just as it is equally obvious that some leaders of the religious right are using religion as a power base. It is also difficult to believe that both prophets and priests were not on occasion influenced by political necessity. Taking a philosophical view, the Bible can only be seen as an imperfect source, representing the best efforts of a particular religious group to explain their place in the world in which they lived.
Handyman has cited the fact that parallel stories - especially tales of a great flood - exist in other religions, in a contect which implies that this is evidence of the accuracy of the Bible. It isn't. As I have already pointed out in a previous post, Judaism, Christianity and Islam all stem from a proto-religion which underlies all of the Old World monotheistic traditions. Whether a given tale is part of the canon of a particular religion depends largely upon the time at which that religion split off from its root. The popularity of the flood story makes it extremely likely that a massive flood did occur, and there has been much speculation about when and where - but since it occurred early in the monotheistic tradition it need not have been 'universal'; it need only have affected the relatively limited area in which the early believers were living.
Navyone aptly quoted Voltaire. It is, to my mind, extremely significant that almost every ethnic group down the centuries has adopted some form of religious belief to explain the otherwise inexplicable. Man is a thinking creature; he NEEDS explanations. Why should Jews, Christians or Muslims be right, whilst Hindus, Buddhists and Zoroastrians are wrong? Because we say so?
I don't regard science as infallible - history clearly demonstrates that it would be very unwise to do so. Nevertheless, the scientist tends to adopt a more rigorous approach than the fundamental theologian. Carbon dating may not be infallible, but science does show that isotopes decay at an absolutely regular rate, and where historic dating evidence for archaeological remains is available (and historic evidence goes back for around three thousand years) the results of carbon dating are remarkably consistent. There are thus good scientific grounds for believing that the method is valid. To say that it is invalid because it conflicts with the Bible is NOT logically tenable, because no evidence has been adduced to demonstrate the accuracy of the Bible. Mere belief is not evidence.
Current scientific thinking assumes that the universe began with a 'big bang'. As that thinking is largely theory-based, I am not absolutely convinced that it is correct. But, even if it IS correct, what was there before the 'big bang', why was it there, and why did the 'big bang' happen? There will always be questions, and I see no reason to deny the possibility that the ultimate answer may be the will of God. But I see every reason to treat the Bible for what it undoubtedly is - a 'best guess' explanation for the people living at the time it was written.
And finally - I have to say that I rather resent the attempt to patronise Brian. He is one bright guy, and I see no reason to believe that time will change his core beliefs. I know that we all (well, at least some of us!) become a little wiser with age, but the principles in which I believe are those in which I believed when I was Brian's age - the only thing that has changed is that experience helps me to argue more cogently!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Mwahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Your so cogent! ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I'll introduce you to BDSM if you don't watch out!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Might check out Michael Peterson's story Malcolm. I believe it may touch upon that subject at some point.
It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
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Dave
The only reason for me to point out that we have free will is that it explains a lot of things for me. For instance of course your reasoning makes the conclusion that whatever we are, God made it that way and that is correct but for a couple of things you are seemingly not considering here. First of all if we make the assumption that God created us, then your logical assumption is that God is responsible then for all we do after we are created. I am sure that God could have created us without free will and we would all be living here inperfect harmony. Adam and Eve would never have been kicked out of the garden of eden no matter how much evil in the world because no decision ever made by Adam or Eve could ever go against the will of God could it? They would not have had the free will to eat of the tree. (Yes you dont have to point out to me that this story is like a fairy tale) The story gives the reason for what is all around us. My thinking of this has drawn me to the conclusion that God needs us for some reason. He needed angels for some unknown reason didnt He? Well, maybe having those angels without free will is not satisfying what is needed and perhaps we are going to replace them in some way since we can have the free will to choose good over evil. I surely hope you are not going to argue with me that there is no evil?
As to Christ bringing a sword, yes you should read the whole thing in context as it can be twisted around a lot if you dont. He is implying that by His coming into our lives it will cause a lot of conflict and isnt that true? We are having this discussion in part because of that conflict. To answer why God allows all the evil to happen to us gets back to my previous paragraph. As to your comment as to why God would make such a mean and nasty creature in the first place. He didnt make us mean and nasty, our free will allows us to be nice and kind or mean and nasty as we see fit; isnt that farily logical to see?
Ken
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Ted
I surely agree with you on that point and I am only trying to get some of the guys to see that when someone who says they are Christian does mean and spiteful things to them, it is surely not God's will or wish to have that happen. Since we have that little problem of free will it is not possible to prevent that from happening any more than we can prevent a murder if someone is intent on it. Well that movie was made about the "thought police" and it is a kind of scarry thought isnt it?
I think it means more to be nice to someone you dont know than to be nice to your friends as they can repay you and the stranger cannot normally do that.
Now let me say that I really like the discussion with Dave and the others about this topic and I think it has been a nice discussion free of derisive commments and mean spirited talk. Thanks to you all!
Ken
Ken
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Timmy,
Please dont think I would ever advocate such a thing to be done and I have read Marc's story and it got me as close to crying as I have ever been. I agree with you that what has been done to so-called sub-human gays is really outrageous and I have spoken out in disgust about it before.
The part you stated about "as their God made us" makes me state again that God did not make you gay and I believe that strongly. I dont know if some of us were just weaker than others and maybe it was some kind of other reason but I dont blame it on God. I have also said I dont necessarily think we can change but some can find hetorsexual love and be happy with that since many gay guys say they are bi. To do something like was done to Marc and do it in the name of religion is exactly what I was saying about what Christ said. I think He cries a lot too.
Ken
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Hi ted,
Yeah I can see that we are almost alone on this one. I am sorry that it can cause some of those here so much pain to even consider some of the points I am trying to make. I dont necessarily take the Bible as the only means of knowing some truth and I can concede that there are probably errors, but to reject the message because you dont like the messenger is not good reason. If there was no Bible I would have the same doubts about evolution. I know that most of the value of the old testament was to give us moral lessons which seem to have been proved by the test of time. Does anyone think that it makes no difference if we murder one another? Yes and the commandment was thou shall not murder, which is a lot different than thou shall not kill. I am not really a bible scholar by any means but I do know that there are some things written into it that are probably there for the power it is going to give the leaders. I know that there were a lot of struggles in the early church and it is perfectly reasonable that there were. It took years for the deciples to realise that a lot of what Christ said was metaphorical.
I just look at the basics and know that the church is not really a building or some set of man-made rules but it is in our hearts.
I know I am also fairly simplistic and take things at face value many times when I probably should look further. I simply look at evolution and creation and have a harder time believing we all came from a simple cell. The mathematical odds of even that first simple cell coming together, given that all the genes and dna and all that was around to make the protiens etc, is astronomical. I can email a sermon given by a preacher in Cali who I heard one time in about 1994 I think it was, who goes thru this whole thing and the odds are greater than the number of all particles in the universe. He used figures from noone who was a believer in God nor anyone other than avowed atheists for instance and it is really good. If you let me know, I will send you the MP3 but it is fairly large. kenlynes@usa.net I dont have to hide behind that hotmail one I dont think.
Ken
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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One can train one's self in any way one wishes.
You can beciome fit enough to run a marathon. You can overeat to the point of immobility. You can meditate and lower your heartrate. You can swim fast, sprint, walk a tightrope, shoot with accuracy, read music, play the bagpipes. Some of these are great achievements, others not.
But what is the point, if the thing you are training yourself to do is wholly against your nature?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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>The mathematical odds of even that first simple cell coming together, given that all the genes and dna and all that was around to make the protiens etc, is astronomical.
I have no problems with you not believing in evolution. I am concerned that you would automatically believe a preacher on the subject, though. Have you followed up all the references and checked to make sure that all the statistics are valid? I have difficulty believing that he would be an unbiased source on the subject.
Secondly, I still don't understand why it is logical to say that if evolution does not exist, then God must be the answer. It's taking something quantifiable, logical and rational and substituting something so unquantifiable that you are entirely giving up on science. It's your right to do that, but don't tell me it is rational.
Also, astronomical odds against life by evolution? I have no problem with that. If intelligent life had never been formed in the first place, we would not be here to see it. So any intelligent life has to find itself marvelling at the sheer luck that brought it to the position that it could reflect on itself.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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If God did not make me gay, and if I grew up a model heterosexual and always expected to be and wanted to be heterosexual but discovered I was gay, then I was created gay.
So, if it was not God that did it, but if God created everything, then there can be no God, because God does not make mistakes.
Alternativeley, if there is a God then presuming to interpret what was created as "that lot is imperfect so was not created by God" is tantamount to denial of God.
If you say that other things caused me to be gay, and you choose to believe in God, then, since those other things were part of my upbringing by creatures that God created, then God caused my upbringing to make me gay, and thus imperfect. But, since God does not make mistakes, this disproves the existence of God unless my being gay has a purpose known only to God. And if my being gay has that purpose then I regret God cannot exist, because He does not create (your words) gay people.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Basing all your thoughts on one collection of writings, some of which are histories and others of which are fiction is wholly arrogant.
There are many faith based belief systems with many allegedly holy books. Yours is as valid as theirs. Not "valid and theirs are not". So we have monotheism standing alongside polytheism and alongside those faiths where there is no deity at all.
The Greeks and the Romans were not wrong. They has very effectives deities. So did the Norsemen, so did the ealry inhabitants of the British Isles. The Gauls had a good selection of deities as well. Are the Japanese damned to eternal torment because they do not agree with the very blinkered view the bible creates? Well, somehow I doubt it, and they are certain of it.
The answer is that you should believe whatever you choose to believe. But you shoudl also recognise that no-one else actually cares. Unless, of course, they want to control you or be controlled by you.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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hi Deej, :-*
I understand your views. i just wrote in answer to the points you raised. I don't want try or expect to convert anyone. It takes a calling from God for that. The bible indicates we'll all get that calling either now or in the next life. Since reading one of timmy's further posts I curtailed this reply, removing my summary of the contents of the bible.
addressing your first point:
>The amount of unexplained and not understandable info is a greater chasm to bridge in the theory of evolution than in the bible explanation. (have to study both to know this). simply the bible is a better 'story' so to speak. it explains not only origins but reason why things are as they are, etc. evolution says it's: blind chance, linked with selective breeding, survival of the fittest.
I've heard mathematicians have run the numbers & figured out that the possibility of things coming together as they are (favorable earth climate, etc) is statistically impossible. universe not been around long enough for the things formed to have been so by random (or even better) chance events.
addressing your second point:
>well, in bible terms magic is separate from God having negative witchly connotations. yes, here in 2 dictionaries magic means an effort to control or forecast natural events thru charms, spells, mysterious qualities that seem to enchant. so..
I always enjoy reading your posts. Many make it a lifetime without any particular religious convictions. no biggie. I think if one has love in his heart & aspires to higher motivations he'll make a positive contribution to society. but many of us need or look for help & guidance & rules for our lives.
Even bible says that not all are now called to live this way, so that sorta negates my (erased) point of studying said book...to those not so inclined.
The concepts of heaven & hell as popularly taught I find not in the bible. While the words are used in the bible the concepts referred to differ from popular thought. Also the fact God would condemn people to eternal punishment is repugnant. the statements in the bible dispute this common teaching. The destination of heaven as a place for 'the saved' is also not evident. And what is well evident about a beneficent Kingdom of God established here on earth over human subjects is harley even known.
Best regards, TeddyB
PS It can be a pain to address each reply to your posts. I wasn't going to do it but noticed yours.. :-* TB
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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hi marc :-*
just realized your post answered mine. Man! so sorry to hear of that utter cruelty...To a child no less!! God's bound to cry over that! i do..
There's been more crap go in in this world than books can contain. I have good hope that one day all this mess will be put straight.
Myself also, it's amazing what burdens men walk around with in their minds due to heartlessness of others.
Some think human nature is inherently good.. maybe so but there's plenty of evil loose out there too. And purporting to be righteous! You know.
Prayers & regards from NC. Most of my family is from OH.
See ya! Stay happy! you da man! Ted 
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Teddy,
I was a bit confused by your post as the "quotes" (the parts in italics) were not from my post. It's best not to use '>' except when quoting another person directly, and preferably the parent post.
You said,
>I've heard mathematicians have run the numbers & figured out that the possibility of things coming together as they are (favorable earth climate, etc) is statistically impossible.
Please give specific, verifiable references. I've heard mathematicians say it is perfectly possible -- even probable. As I can't remember the specifics I am not going to use that as a point in argument, however, and I wish you wouldn't, either. It gets us nowhere. On the other hand, if you give me some references I can go to the university library, look them up, and investigate what other people have said in answer to them. It'll take a lot of work, but you've fired me up sufficiently to try.
"Statistically impossible" sounds very dubious to me. Maybe very small probabilities for a particular planet over a particular time period; but there are billions of stars, billions of planets and billions of years for life to form, so the chances of it happening on at least one of them are much, much higher. Anyway, if you refuse to believe science on any other front, why would you believe that set of figures over all others?
By the way, have you given thought to the statistical probability that a God exists? How would you even begin to calculate that?
I await your citation with interest so I can find out exactly the conclusions of this particular mathematician.
>well, in bible terms magic is separate from God having negative witchly connotations. yes, here in 2 dictionaries magic means an effort to control or forecast natural events thru charms, spells, mysterious qualities that seem to enchant. so..
Yes, but please remember I am not using the Bible as a point of reference. And if God is able to "control or forecast natural events through ... mysterious qualities" then according to your own definition he practices magic. QED.
>simply the bible is a better 'story' so to speak.
I think the Iliad is a better story than the Bible. Does that make it true?
David
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Hi Deej,
I think there is some evidence for a spirit world. The bible purports to be god's own words & maintained accurately down thru time by his power. you don't need to reference textual variations, i know of those.. that's not the point.
Anyway it's not for all to be open to god's way at this time. Each in due time. Bible says that, not just me. So why persue it..? no man can know it & be convinced if God hasn't called them first (bible says).
So neither can i knowingly fault you, and you will not understand me. It's no biggie. Bible reveals that some knowledge & understanding is now hidden (in wisdom by God) from men's minds & general knowledge until the time is right in God's plan.
It's all good. Yes I agree Europe & the UK have gone secular before the USA. but we're close behind. And it was all destined to happen. God allows humans free moral agency to do as they wish. he's keeping hands off & allowing us to write or lessons in human history.
in due time we'll know if it's all true... when mankind faces total annihilation bible says savior will return & set up world ruling empire in j'salem on mt. zion. finally perfect gvmt over mankind. 
have a nice day! springtime's here! Teddy
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Okey dokey. I won't be able to convince you (because if the Bible is absolutely right on everything, then nothing I can say will ever change your mind), and you won't try to convince me. Let's agree to disagree.
I won't continue to counter your points as I don't think it will help either of us. But can I just ask a couple of simple questions?
i. Why are you so convinced the Bible is always one hundred percent right, and has preserved the original word of God entirely intact? You must be able to admit, at the very least, that there are small discrepancies in the translations -- the English versions we read are very different from the originals, and we still have versions in the original languages, so we can compare them. Or do you read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek?
>in due time we'll know if it's all true... when mankind faces total annihilation bible says savior will return & set up world ruling empire in j'salem on mt. zion. finally perfect gvmt over mankind.
ii. Isn't God coming to earth to rule us directly essentially cancelling free will? Is that the idea? Can you give me the book, chapter and verse, so I can look it up?
Finally, I would like to say -- issues of creationism, the existence of God, the fallibility of science and so on aside -- that I honestly think you can get more from the Bible by not taking it at absolute face value. Jesus's parables are some of his most powerful teaching, and they are just about the only thing in the Bible we can all agree were fiction. They work much better as allegory than as pure fact.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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And the other holy books? And the other faiths? What of them? Each deity is "the only way", and armies each fight with the same god on their side, but against each other.
And example is in the middle east, where there are two wronged nations, each wth a god fomr the same basic rootstock on their side, neither of whom will give an inch, and both of whom appear to be irrevocably locked in conflict, potentially because of that very deity.
That makes precisley no sense, even to the combatants.
And what of Buddhism, what of the Druids, the Roman, greek and Norse gods? What of the aboriginal peoples of the globe (ab origine = [broadly] "from the original place"). Native Americans were wrong, were they?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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doesnt anyone think its odd that Ken stopped posting? Oh well.
Uncle Jim, dont you have any ocmments sice you are the one who started this post.
Sighhhhhh, I can see why you would take a break when your embarassed.
Cossie???? BDSM , hummmmmmm, wonder if its fun.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I must admit this post really rankled. It came out of the blue and just hit. But nothing to justify it, no follow up, just a load of odd discussion about all sorts of stuff.
So what is the accusation here? I started off tsaking it light heartedly, but it has become increasingly obvious to me thatit was not a light heaarted post
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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BDSM is only fun if rules are obeyed. The thing most people fail to understand is that the person who allegedly submits to the other actually has all the power in the relationship.
Additionally the receipt and delivery of pain is not actually the most important part. The truly important part is the surrender of self to experiences that one would not normally allow one's self to experience, delivered by the other party.
But there is also a very strong message here: Never, ever allow yourself to be restrained by a person you do not trust with your life.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Your right Timmy. This has kinda wandered all over the place. What gets me is that the original post was a statement that, this forum was a place for only aithiest/agnostics and liberals. I guess the point being that if you werent one of these you wernt safe here. I havent seen any sign of this. If Uncle Jim wants to elaborate on this then he certainly can and perhaps get the thread on the right track. I cant see where he was attacked by anyone, or threatned by anyone. Im sure if there was a threat you would have been right on top of it. So, it would be interesting to hear exactly what it was that made Uncle Jim feel unsafe.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Oh yeh, its spring break, Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa HOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I know I do not always get it right. But when I get it wrong it is human error, not malice or prejudice. There is the wonderful paradox that I "hate intolerance".
The aggravating thing is that this thread seemed in tended to disrupt something that does good. No, this place is not real. Yes there are dangers of meeting people from the "online world", and of course there may be perverts here looking to seduce cute young boys. But it does good for all that.
We have prevented a suicide or two, helped a soul or two more, maybe even introduced a couple or two. But mostly the board is for those who lurk, reading and seeing how normal they are, too.
Uncle Jim has my email address. He and I have spoken over an unfortunate incident where he was deceived by someone else. We moved a little to resolving that. But why did he not email me and ask?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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by the way, if you want a particularly challenging and highly moral BDSM story, "The Story of Tim" by Jack Rowan is special. It is, however a difficult read. If you are in any way unsure of stories containing real pain, or relationships that cross the age of consent, please not not go there. For me the story would have been as valid if Tim had been of legal age, so I ignored that part.
I have, however, made it clear thatthe story is not a usual tale for this site on the way in to it
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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some things I dont understand, but guess I cant work out every thing. Why would someone need to hide who or what they are? It dont make since. Now if someone started emailing me or something and hitting on me or bothering me, I would sure be emailing Timmy to let him know. that has not happned. Everybody in here has been special, and been a help when I needed it.
I still dont know why Uncle Jim has posted the way he has. but like I said I dont understand everyting and sometimes need a bit of help. You know if someone is bothering you you dont have to talk to them. If what someone is writting seems to be bothering you dont read it. Thats pretty simple.
I hate to think that Uncle Jim thinks all of us are like that. Course he can think whatever he wishes, but hes painting us all with one brush, and thats not fair.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I referred BDSM in a humorous context. I do not deny that some people find BDSM attractive, and I have no wish to deny them their satisfaction - but I think that it is a very dangerous path for the curious to tread. I have no wish to dominate, nor have I any wish to be submissive (Me, a Scotsman? Don't be ridiculous!) Equally, I find no sexual satisfaction in experiencing pain or in administering pain - in fact the idea revolts me - but, again, that doesn't mean that I would wish to limit the freedom of those who think differently. Indeed, I think BDSM is potentially so dangerous that (as Timmy will no doubt remember) I argued strongly against the posting of Jack Rowan's story on the site because it might tempt young people to move in that direction - though I accept that the story itself is not without merit.
Despite the above, I have to say that I have been amazed by the number of guys who like their bum/butt slapped (in some cases quite hard!) while having sex. And of course, being naturally co-operative, I was always willing to oblige!
Can anyone explain how we reached this point on this thread? My head hurts!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Somehow...... This last bit placed an image into my brain and it felt like someone scratching their fingernails on a blackboard......
It all kind of flashed together..... Kilts all a flutter and ping pong paddles blurring across a rosy red bum....... And in the end all settle down to a nice haggis.....
Shivers......
Now how am I supposed to go to sleep?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I was ok until I read "ping pong". I was never any good at ping pong. I like haggis, though I find it a little on the dry side, but ping pong? And do you use a regular or a pen holder grip?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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cossie wrote:
>Indeed, I think BDSM is potentially so dangerous that (as Timmy will no doubt remember) I argued strongly against the posting of Jack Rowan's story on the site because it might tempt young people to move in that direction - though I accept that the story itself is not without merit.
I remember your strong and coherent arguments. I think that no-one would be tempted into the activity who was not already so inclined. I agree that it can be dangerous, especially in extreme forms. An example is the rathe rodd set of judgements in "R v Brown" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanner_case) where the verdicts were actually reached because "thsi activity might tempt others into doing it if we do not find against these perverted and sick people", and a judgement was made allegedly in the public interest, but not according to the laws. Or rather the laws were bent in order to convict.
While most people are willing to sample spanking and to decide if it is or is not for them, and many people are happy to be restrained lightly in order to feel different sensations, no-one would, I think, be tempted into the advanced stuff without knowing what they wanted.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Brian1407a wrote:
> some things I dont understand, but guess I cant work out every thing. Why would someone need to hide who or what they are?
The answer is not the simplistic "beacsue they can", but rather "because they need to". And we never know what these reasons are.
As an example, we have several people here who are not male. They are here for reasons of their own and are welcome as the personae they project here. Often they are here because they truly like the company of men, but heterosexual men treat them very differently from homosexual men. Yet homosexual men flirt with them as if they were homosexual men, so it is a paradox of safety.
Others hide their real nature because they feel unattractive. "If you saw me you would not want to be with me" is the thought in their minds. So they conceal their personal details such as age, height, colouring, even in one very sad case that is not here they conceal their ethnicity. And they do this because their projected personae are accepted.
What they do not realise is that they are accepted, or would be, as they are in real life.
It is not actually deception, or not a deception of us, not exactly. Nor in many cases is it self deception. It is more a case of being able to fit in, often for the first or only time in their lives. I don't mind people finding a place to fit in that manner.
But I do mind if the intent is to deceive for nefarious purposes.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You actually like haggis ? ? ?
What do you do to counter the dryness?
OK...... Everyone that likes haggis line up over here.......
Everyone that does not like it line up over there.....
WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think we just shifted the tilt of the globes axis......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> Brian1407a wrote:
> > some things I dont understand, but guess I cant work out every thing. Why would someone need to hide who or what they are?
>
> The answer is not the simplistic "beacsue they can", but rather "because they need to". And we never know what these reasons are.
>
> As an example, we have several people here who are not male. They are here for reasons of their own and are welcome as the personae they project here. Often they are here because they truly like the company of men, but heterosexual men treat them very differently from homosexual men. Yet homosexual men flirt with them as if they were homosexual men, so it is a paradox of safety.
>
> Others hide their real nature because they feel unattractive. "If you saw me you would not want to be with me" is the thought in their minds. So they conceal their personal details such as age, height, colouring, even in one very sad case that is not here they conceal their ethnicity. And they do this because their projected personae are accepted.
It took a great leap of faith for me to finally send Kevy a picture of myself..... I do not think of myself as attractive..... If anyone did I would have their head examined.....
>
> What they do not realise is that they are accepted, or would be, as they are in real life.
>
> It is not actually deception, or not a deception of us, not exactly. Nor in many cases is it self deception. It is more a case of being able to fit in, often for the first or only time in their lives. I don't mind people finding a place to fit in that manner.
>
> But I do mind if the intent is to deceive for nefarious purposes.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Who are the alleged ruling class? 
I should make this clear. 
