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Or even (sorry, the parent was in capitals unnecessarily): οι πολλοι
P.S. There's no such thing as "the hoi polloi", unless you have a a stutter.
Yours pedantically,
Deeej
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What is special about this forum is the relatively low-key, friendly and intimate atmosphere which has developed over the years; for this reason ...
I couldn't agree more, Cossie. Which is why I stopped by, and have stayed here, most of the time as an observer, though. This group is a place of safety, and I hope it is going to stay that way for all of us, including those who have their stories published here, (.. and people like me, to whom English is a foreign language.)
Everything here is open to the public eye, and to public scrutiny, without access restrictions or 'extras' behind closed doors. Still, I see this group as an intimate one, the way both you, Cossie, and Timmy describe it. What makes this forum stand out among the others I know of, is Timmy's efforts to keep it a place of honesty, friendship and encouragement, where positive and sincere words of advice are frequently offered, but where adverse criticism is avoided.
I have been diligently attempting to teach him the finer points of acting like a Scotsman ...
Please, Cossie, don't you think that this fine lad has got enough to cope with?
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Dear Timmy,
We are not speaking of "the right to speak" here. ..
Indeed. The way you regulate conversations here is what makes this place very special, and avoiding adverse comments and criticism does not, in my opinion, limit one's right to speak. It may, however, require that the speaker spends a little time on reflection, considering how a message will or may be received, before speaking out.
It seems to me to be beyond our abilities.
I hope not!
Sailor
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I've no idea who Roper and Ebert are, Brian. But I'd be interested to hear why you think Das Boot was boring.
As for LotR -- yes, all three films made a hell of a lot of money. Yes, they were on a grand scale, with amazing effects and wonderful photography and a very credible cast list. I don't know what Roper and Ebert said about them, but if they said they were "bad films" then I (and the vast majority of audiences, critics included) would have to disagree with them. But there is a whole field of "critical theory" that extends beyond the sheer entertainment value of watching a film. Film as an art form, film as politics, film as commentary on real life. You may think it's all a pile of tosh, and that's your privilege. I do, too, when it stops being the artists themselves who come up with meaning, and they instead leave it to the critics (modern British art comes to mind -- though I have to say I have no real interest in it, and so am probably swayed by the British tabloid mentality). Disagreeing doesn't make those people who subscribe to that point of view wrong. Just of a different mind.
For example, I believe that the second and third LotR films should not have received all the awards they did. Not because they were worse than the first, but because they were, simply, "more of the same" -- no longer original. As films within themselves, it doesn't diminish them at all -- they are some of the best sequels ever made. But the fact is, they were sequels. Does that sound snobbish? Maybe it does; but I don't begrudge the film-makers for making them. They completed the story, and they made a hell of a lot of money. I'd have done the same in their place.
>I think Ill decide which movies are good or bad.
Brian, one question -- how do you decide whether a film is worth seeing or not, before you've actually seen it? Do you accept the recommendations of other people? Your friends? Do you read reviews? The soundbites on the packaging? Reviews are, of course, only a guide, but I find it difficult to believe you ignore them completely. After you've seen the film, it is of course your privilege to disregard them.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think you need a rough breathing on the definite article, oh pedantic one
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> Marc wrote:
> > But what if it is "special" because it is not special..... Or is upsetting in some way? What is a piece is special to one but harmful to another?
>
> I am speaking of the writing. It seems to me to be unlikely that the writing can be harmful, though one might not always wish to look at the topic that is written about. I do not relish descriptions of wounds, for example, but I can recognise when the writing cuases a vivid picture of a wound.
>
> As for the rest, why always look under stones for reasons? Stones conceal creepy crawlies, but may not have reasons there. I thought it would be interesting. I thought it would be helpful. I thought it would encourage the less skilled and highly skilled alike. I thought it would perhaps encourage a new reader to an author whose work they had never looked at. I thought it would be fun. I thought it would be educational. I thought it woudl stimulate conversation.
Why look under stones.... because there are stones to look under.... I am bringing to light the things others are overlooking or not seeing....
If this is going to work then all posibilities of catastrophy need to be addressed either now, before the fact (which is what I drew as your wish in your origional post) or later, when these issues present themselves in actual threads.
If all you wanted was for everyone to stand and cheer your idea then you shold have asked for that rather than a discussion as to wether or not it is a viable idea.
>
> I did not think I would now be feeling highly discouraged and demotivated.
I did not want to either discourage nor demotivate you.... But if looking realistically at the possibilities of this all going wrong does discourage or demotivate you then perhaps it should just pass into oblivion.
No one probably remembers, but we tried this at the GWG when it was alive and the fiasco that insued was palpable.
But whatever, I know nothing......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I know, I know! It has been causing me great distress. But how can I do it on your board?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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>You can not expect the one without the other.....
>If I see something done well I will say so......
>If I see something done badly I will say so......
>And yes..... spelling and punctuation counts....
> Why look under stones.... because there are stones to look under.... I am bringing to light the things others are overlooking or not seeing....
>
> If all you wanted was for everyone to stand and cheer your idea then you shold have asked for that rather than a discussion as to wether or not it is a viable idea.
>
> I did not want to either discourage nor demotivate you.... But if looking realistically at the possibilities of this all going wrong does discourage or demotivate you then perhaps it should just pass into oblivion.
>
> No one probably remembers, but we tried this at the GWG when it was alive and the fiasco that insued was palpable.
>
> But whatever, I know nothing......
I am not going to bother. I have lost interest in this for the reasons above. You have picked the idea to death. And it has been an example of the very thing I wanted to avoid with authors, so it is just as well.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Forget it. I am not going to bother. Stories remain off limits.
What could have been useful, fun, instructive, educational, amusing, helpful, inspiring, or just plain interesting cannto happen without huge negatives being heaped on the idea.
I shoudl be really pleased it happened to me in stead of to an author. I am meant to be resilient.
So, I had an idea. Most people understood it and liked it, but it was still hacked to death and now lies bleeding in a ditch. It was not even the cncept I proposed that was savaged, but something else.
But I have lost interest, totally. I started losing interest when I was told that "If I see something done badly I will say so......" despite that being already off limits.
I know why some people return to just lurking now.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I was unaware that MOST people were involved with this thread....
Some were, yes.... but most... I don't think so....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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If the question can be condensed into a couple of sentences, how about a democratic vote?
Personally, I have no objection to feedback or constructive criticism. I'm not sure if it's on the cards, but I quite like the idea of confining criticism to a separate page so that it doesn't directly affect -- or worse, upset -- the community based around this board.
David
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I dont know a whole lot about nothin, but I do know this. it is easy to critisize someones elses work, but its a diff story when someone critisizes yours. You can yell no no no no all day long and you know its the truth, your feelings get hurt. Especially if its someone who you like to think is your friend. "There is no knife that cuts so deep as the tongue of a friend".
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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And that, Brian, is why I am not going to expose people to the risk. It is precisely why I put the thought here: to see how people would react. And since even the thought causes a fight the idea is stillborn.
Sorry, Deej, no vote. I could do it easily enough, but it is pointless. The question has to be along the lines of "If I do this will you play by the rules" and it has to have 100% signup. Since that is not going to happen, no vote.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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>it is easy to critisize someones elses work, but its a diff story when someone critisizes yours.
It might just be me, but I much prefer it when people tell me straight away that they don't like my work than they um and ar and hope I won't ask them for an opinion. It happens all the time at university -- I make films, I come up with screenplays, I write essays, and sometimes the staff or other students are fiercely critical of them. In that case, I do usually feel unhappy about it, but I don't automatically assume they have it in for me. If someone doesn't like a piece of work, it could be because it's simply atrocious, or he doesn't like some of the details (so I would find out which, and improve them), or maybe he or I just have very differing tastes. If any of those three are the case, his opinion is constructive, and I can bear his opinion in mind when working on my next piece of work.
>Especially if its someone who you like to think is your friend. "There is no knife that cuts so deep as the tongue of a friend".
You seem to be assuming that someone who criticises your work (but not you in particular) is not actually a friend at all. I don't understand why it is not possible for someone to criticise something in a tactful way without jeapordising a friendship. If somebody wants to upset you, he'll find another way to do it, anyway.
David
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Hi Deeej! If its the kind of movie I like, then I will listen to friends who have seen it. It seems that all the movies I like and thought were good are the ones that all the critics disliked. It seems to be a rule of thumb with me that if the critics dont like it, it must be good. I dont go tot he threaters any more cost to much, and they are coming out on DVD so fast I just wait. I just watched "The Lion, The witch and the wardrobe". OMG.....was it good or what? I have read the series some time ago and the movie was done so well and stayed true to the book and I have heard that they are going to do the rest of the books in the seriers. I hope they are as awsome as the first one.
The Lord of the Rings was three books. Instead of trying to cram all three books into one movie and ruining the story, they did three movies one for each book to complete the story. By the way it was the third movie "The Return of the King" that swept all the oscars. Elija Wood was awsome as Frodo. The parts were played so well by all the casts. Orland Bloom, wow.
You want an example of critics being stupid and wrong. "The Blair Witch Project". They made millions from nothing but hype. The critics were in bed with the movie distributors on this one. This movie absolutely positively sucked. It almost caused a riot at the theator here. The owners wound up giving their money back. I think it ranks with "Attack of the Moon Men", which is supposed to be the worst movie ever made. "Attack of the Killer Tomoatoes" was at least funny.
But its my opinion and does not reflect the opinions of the owners or management. Then again, Im the one who thinks Sponge Bob Square Pants is a terrific cartoon.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Perhaps I'm just being naive, or not cynical enough. I suppose the way that Timmy's simple question at the beginning of this thread became contested so quickly is a good indication of where things might lead.
David
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I think there is a diff between asking for and expecting Critisisum and uninvited critiques. Its like if you were painting your house and you got finished and were proud of your work, you did the best you could do. A friend comes along and says, "Wow, where did you learn to paint? Your house looks like crap and the colors and the job are really nasty". Ive seen friendships desolve over stuff like that.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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>I just watched "The Lion, The witch and the wardrobe". OMG.....was it good or what?
It wasn't bad. But I grew up with the BBC 1980s TV version. It had much, much lower production values, but it did have a wonderful score (Geoffrey Burgon) that I really, really missed in the film version. And the BBC version was closer to the book -- I felt the film version was looser with the source material, and had a few Americanisms that jarred with me.
Both of those criticisms are irrelevant to someone who has not seen the BBC version or read the book.
>By the way it was the third movie "The Return of the King" that swept all the oscars.
Yes, but that was a political move. If the first had been a standalone film instead of the first of three it would have swept the Oscars by itself. Instead, they held back opinion for two further films. Which would have been fine, if they had all been one entry. But they weren't -- they were presented as three separate films despite being shot back-to-back.
>You want an example of critics being stupid and wrong. "The Blair Witch Project". They made millions from nothing but hype. The critics were in bed with the movie distributors on this one. This movie absolutely positively sucked.
I agree with you there. I thought it was diabolical. Original, but diabolical. I'd have slated it if I were a critic. I like classical Hollywood continuity -- so much, in fact, that I am planning to devote my life to it. However, the fact is, there were people who liked it. I won't support them, but I don't object to good-faith reviewers who gave it a good review, provided that they actually thought the film was good, and weren't simply going along with the hype.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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What I was looking for was precisely not a critique.
The concept was that, if (for example) you found a piece of prose or poetry that you felt showed excellence, you could highlight that excellence and say why you found it excellent. There was to be nothing negative.
As Deej says, things degenerate fast.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I agree with you there -- uninvited criticism can be unpleasant. In a public arena (politicians, scientists, artists, writers, etc.) cannot expect not to be criticised, though -- it comes with the job. The only question is whether publishing a story on a web site counts as making it public. When I write something on this board, for example, I am making it publicly available, but I only expect a response from the smallish circle of regular posters. If a guest popped out of thin air, contradicted me, and disappeared again, I would be offended. If someone I knew and respected did the same thing -- even if it could be considered rude in some circumstances -- I would usually appreciate their frankness.
I still, personally, think that constructive criticism (and I do not think that is a contradiction in terms) is useful. But I take your point; if someone wants to be criticised, they should say so, and in the absence of such a statement, it is more polite to leave them alone.
David
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To anyone who was thinking of criticising that first sentence -- sorry, I've beaten you to it! It was atrocious!
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... or even, that second sentence. 
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Let's face it, what could have been a good idea is now a dead duck. You could write another 'parrot sketch' out of it.
If you can't say something nice, then don't say a word. If you have to critique a story, then keep it to an email.
This thread began to turn distinctly unpleasant at one stage, which as far as I'm aware is not what this forum is for. If saying what is not right causes distress, then it's not for this forum. That kind of comment needs to be done elsewhere.
The difference in meaning between saying, "I thought that was crap" and instead saying "You usually would have done better" is not a lot, but it is the 'intent' which is vastly different. Either way though, it's not really what we wanted is it?
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Deep
I was counting on you, because Google didn't touch it. I think it would be interesting if you could 'catch' dyslexia like a virus, and suffer with it for a week or two, like the flu (unlike my whole life) - you'd be a changed man! Perhaps for the better, we'll never know.
Regards-
Rick
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What "we" as you say wanted is a panacea of positive threads as they could possibly relate to segments of stories.....
Well, some people might see something positive and others might not... it all depends on the reader doesn't it?
To put quite a fine point on it those with opinion or commentary other than glowingly pristine would be ordered not to post....
Now that is not realy fair is it?
Also, what of people not here yet? How can anyone mandate how they would respond to a thread?
Not everything is always rosey and cute gay boys running through the streets blowing kisses at all they pass by. Sometimes there is a thorn on that rose....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You said.....
If saying what is not right causes distress, then it's not for this forum. That kind of comment needs to be done elsewhere.
So if I see something as not right here and take the risk of causing someone distress because I make it known that a thing is not right.......
I should go elsewhere?
Is it not wrong to let a wrong go on without doing something about it?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It is sometimes impossible to prevent unpleasantness or what is perceived as unpleasantness. Equally it can be very difficult to remain assertive instead of becoming aggressive while miantaining a point one believes to be important.
But the exercise proved that we could not do it. That is interesting in itself.
What saddens me is that it need not have died. It was not a hard thing to ask. It would not be a hard thing to achieve.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Marc wrote:
> What "we" as you say wanted is a panacea of positive threads as they could possibly relate to segments of stories.....
>
> Well, some people might see something positive and others might not... it all depends on the reader doesn't it?
>
> To put quite a fine point on it those with opinion or commentary other than glowingly pristine would be ordered not to post....
>
You keep beating an irelevant drum. It seems not to matter that you say you understand points about segments and encouragement. You appear to be saying that you want to highlight all the negatives in something as well as the positives, though those were stated to be outside the parameters posed. And the phrasing you are using is oratory, not discussion
I am wholly at a loss over this behaviour, the more so since it has single handedly made me withdraw what was a positive concept. I have seen horrid little barbs all the way through this thread and I do not like them.
As for your fine point: You are absolutely correct. A post that was hostile to a work woudl be both removed and the poster asked not to do that. Why? Because in this putative segment that is outside the rules. It would have been neither fair nor unfair. It would have been the rule.
I truly would like the scathing comments to cease, please. That behaviour is not acceptable.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I'm not sure if you were addressing me, Mike, but I think I'd better stay out of this. I don't feel especially strongly either way -- I hope no-one thought I was arguing with anyone.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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let me see if I can prive this one way or the other. It is exception time. I have a story that was rejected by Nifty. I am creating an exception. You cannot offend me over this, so we will use it as an example. You have no idea why I wrote it, or who it is about. You have no idea about my mood about the tale, whether I love it or am ambivalent towards it. You don't know if I am easy to upset or not.
So, No rules. None. Deal with positive and negative. Tell us all if anything is good and highlight what is bad. Let's see what happens.
The floor is yours with
http://iomfats.org/storyshelf/iomfats/shortstories/misfit.html
Let's see what you would do to someone else. And if the grammar and punctuation and spelling is important to you, maybe you'd better handle that too.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Positive: There's something very familiar about that story. And I identified strongly with one of the characters in it. I have no qualms about the style, nor technical things such as grammar and spelling.
Bad points: Well, the only bad point I can think of is that the banter looks a little bit odd written down -- it would work better cinematically, or in real life. But I can hardly fault it; it really set the scene, and the story would have been poorer without it.
All in all, very evocative. I'm aware I may be projecting my own thoughts onto it, so I'd be interested to read other people's reviews. I can only think that the reason Nifty did not accept it was that it doesn't depict a relationship -- only the loss of a potential relationship. It is a very sad story.
Incidentally, I hope that it isn't set in the present day, though I fear terribly that is is. I would like to think that at modern British schools people don't really care about other people's sexualities. But I suspect they do, even if it's only due to ignorance: I was terrified of mentioning my sexuality for years, in case it changed others' perceptions of me for the worse. In retrospect, it probably wouldn't have done -- but I didn't know that at the time.
I'll revisit this thread again tomorrow. Sorry -- I'm too tired at the moment to write a fuller review.
David
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Oh good. another story to make me cry. The story was good in that it shows the cruelty and the beattin gdown that gay boys have to endure. The absolute fear most of us live with. The desire for something you dont feel you can ever have and death is the only reliese. Its a good story Timmy. I cant understand whyy Niffty rejected it, but guess it was to much of the truth for them.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I came on line a couple of hours ago, and read the posts added to this thread in the last twentyfour hours or so. I closed down and sat and thought for over an hour about what was happening and whether I should stay silent or post again. I came back on line and read the whole thread from beginning to end. I am so deeply disillusioned that I simply cannot let the matter rest without comment.
Marc, many of those who post here are to a greater or lesser degree aware of your background, and for that reason you are allowed more latitude than any other regular poster when you resort - as you not infrequently do - to rudemess and insults. Yet when you posted on 12 April news of your unfortunate problem was met with unanimous concern, sympathy and support. The support might have been even more constructive if the facts had been coherently explained.
That happened because there is a feeling of community here. It's a strange situation, since most of us have not yet met and indeed may never meet, but on line we mean something to each other. We help each other. We joke with each other. We sympathise with each other. I think of the people with whom I exchange ideas, jokes or opinions as friends.
Timmy has always maintained a policy of prohibiting criticism of hosted authors on this forum. He proposed that we might consider allowing positive criticism, and (or so I inferred) allowing recommendation and discussion of stories hosted elsewhere. It is his forum; he had no obligation to invite discussion of the proposal before implementing it, but it is entirely consistent with the ethos of the forum that he chose to do so.
Apart from yourself, the only poster who was not entirely supportive was Rigel - and his observations were perfectly valid and were neutal rather than critical. I don't disagree with your views on criticism as a general principle; if I chose to post at awesomedude.com or gayauthors.com I would do my best to be balanced, and that would inevitably involve adverse comment as well as praise. The point is, that is NOT what Timmy was suggesting; he was seeking to be supportive to hosted authors, many of whom are new to the writing game, whilst being informative about what was worth reading elsewhere. Against the background of this forum, that seems to me - and to the vast majority of the others who have posted - to be a perfectly valid objective. You are clearly intelligent and I cannot believe that you are incapable of appreciating Timmy's motives.
You have said many times over the years that you NEED this forum, and I acknowledge your status as the first participant poster. Surely you can appreciate that others need it, too? After all, that's what it sets out to be - a place of safety in which posters have a liberty of expression which they may not be able to enjoy in real life.
What goes before is by way of background before I can ask the real question which provoked me to make this post. Would you rather destroy the ambience of this forum than agree to comply with the view of the majority? I am not suggesting that your views are wrong - I am simply saying that other places exist for literary criticism and that is not what we are seeking here. I have always subscribed to the philosophy that the ultimate morality is to seek the greatest good of the greatest number, and if that means subjugating my own instincts, then so be it. I make no pretence to be infallible. Please Marc, can't you do the same?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Greetings Cossie
There are any number of threads that I do not post to (hard to believe since I'm sorta all over this board), but literary criticism would just be yet another thread that I would avoid. My point of view does not match our host nor most of the participants on the board. I think that that is perfectly OK.
I will not criticize what I can not do. All I can say is whether I enjoyed a particular piece or not. If I'm not wrong, everyone who posts here would like to think of themselves as a 'writer', and the truth is that it is a rare talent. We express ourselves as best we can, but a 'writer' is a level that only a few achieve.
Some time ago I asked after the biographical details of a writer on this site. I was/am amazed to find that he is still a kid. I sincerely regret that I in all likelihood will not be corporate then he hits his stride. In the mean time I would never criticize anything he did, even if it doesn't appeal to me. 'Talent' has a right (obligation) to explore all of the corners and fringes of the art, that is how truly remarkable things come into being, and a lot of shit in between is the price we pay for it.
Like all media, just because it is out there does not mean that I am going to avail myself of it. This is my argument for allowing pornography. Just because it is available doesn't mean I'm gonna read it. Just because it is on TV.... this will be one more thing that I will add to my parental control list.
Regards
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think my concept was harder to understand than I expected. I do not want literary criticism, except for the story I have posted as a sacrifical lamb to see what happens. And I predict that not much will happen to it.
Criticism implies some sort of skill.
What I was looking for is a very simple "Wow, that was a wonderful passage" set of items.
Criticism implies balancing that with "And this one was rubbish"
So, after looking at the thread, it is clear to me that this would never have worked.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I guess you are right....
I shouldnt have posted something that would present my problems.
It is better to let things just be all nice and happy and according to the status quo.
I shall most assuredly not make that mistake again.
Thank you for bringing this to light.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> I think my concept was harder to understand than I expected. I do not want literary criticism, except for the story I have posted as a sacrifical lamb to see what happens. And I predict that not much will happen to it.
See that is the problem, you insist that critical annalysis is a thing DONE TO a story.... In reality it is a thing DONE FOR a story..... It is a matter of mindset....
>
> Criticism implies some sort of skill.
>
> What I was looking for is a very simple "Wow, that was a wonderful passage" set of items.
Yes it is simple to read a story and praise it.... To validate that praise however might take more insight.... One can drone on mimmicing the catch phrase "Wow, that was a wonderful passage" but to explain why it was wonderful has another set of problems built into the equasion such as other peoples opinions.... also, what of the phrases which are somewhat wonderful, or those that are meerly good....
>
> Criticism implies balancing that with "And this one was rubbish"
Critiquing a piece of work never involves that statement.... I guess that is also another preconcieved mindset.
>
> So, after looking at the thread, it is clear to me that this would never have worked.
As much as you would have liked it to work.... you are exactly right here, it would never have worked.... See, you are all about making some people feel good.... This kind of plan would only have caused contention in the end....
That being said....
As much as I need this place.... I have to reconsider my position.... Tim asked for opinion reguarding his idea.... He never said only opinion that mirrored his.... Just because I saw inherent problems with his plan I was pointed out to be a troublemaker....
I was slapped in the face with a post I made concerning my problems.... Implying that since I was supported there I should have supported this....
If that is indeed the case, the way things are done now then I guess I have said all I can.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I have been away from the Message Board for a few days and have returned to find this long and - quite honestly - very disturbing thread. Timmy's original intention was hijacked - not for the first time. It's unfortunate that some of us (maybe most of us, maybe all of us) have emotion where intellect should be, but despite protestations and promises to "behave better next time" it would be foolish to expect things to change. Apparently, this is the nature of the beast.
Thus far my negative comments. Now for a positive contribution to this thread.
I think that the tenor of this whole thread might have been obviated if, instead of using terms such as criticism and critique, Timmy had used 'appreciation'. What Timmy is looking for is the occasional message on this board telling writers that their efforts are appreciated.
Since I shall be away from the MB again for a couple of days please feel free to flame me and my comments: what I don't know about can't hurt me  .
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think I never used the terms "critique" or "criticism" except to say that thise were not what I was proposing.
Had I used the term "appreciation" I perceive that I would have been jumped on in the same way that I was jumped on.
I think you will agree that it was something quite simple I proposed. I am disturbed that it is impossible to agree to do something simple. The words "William" and "Golding" sum it up.
I have been left, after this farago, wondering why I bother. I feel I have been trampled on and that something I was working towards has been wrecked comprehensively.
Was it hijacking? I don't think so. But it was a set of posts on a different and apparently wilfully misunderstood agenda. They were valuable, though. They showed me how right I have been to stop any story critiques here. Imagine if you were an embryo author and had been subjected to that fusillade of "stuff".
Now I'm a big boy. Let's see what you all can do with "The Misfit". Or did I choose that story for another reason?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You took a deliberately different topic and arrived all guns blazing. You stated that, whatever the rules, you would say what was bad in a story.
That was doing none of what you have just stated.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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