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This is one of the most horrific cases of child abuse I have ever heard -- all the more so because the doctors involved apparently thought they were doing the right thing.
I am very suspicious of psychology for that reason: because it is so hard to get actual proof, people pretend that their unproven theories have validity, and make horrible, life-changing decisions based on them. Then only a few years later, the theories are debunked, but there is no way those who have been affected by them can be put back to how they were.
I cannot believe that, having ruined David Reimer's penis, his doctors thought it would be better if they castrated him too. It shows complete lack of respect for any wishes that he might ever have to have children of his own. It is quite obvious that as a woman he would never have been able to have children of his own.
I agree, Brian: if I'd been the father I'd have difficulty preventing myself from strangling Money. I don't think that's a redneck instinct at all -- it's a universal paternal one. Unfortunately, I am not convinced at any point it was clear to the parents that Money was an idiot and totally wrong, until perhaps David was 13 or 15, by which time it was far, far too late (either to strangle him or to block his "treatment").
David
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Hi, Ken,
I, too, believe in God, and I'm sorry that you've got the impression that believing on God 'is thought to be a mental disorder by most who frequent here'. I haven't been here for long, but one of the reasons why I lurk around here, and write a few silly words now and then, is that I know that we respect each other for who and what we are. (See the answers by e.g. JFR, Timmy, Deeej, NW and Cossie.)
You say 'I do not think he made me this way.' When I was young I suppressed the gay part of me, I married, and we were given two wonderful children. The marriage ended in a divorce, but I still consider myself lucky, now being a father and a grandfather. When, at last, I had the courage to accept myself for who I am, I went through a mental process of re-playing moments of my life, which confirmed, repeatedly and beyound doubt, that I am gay. Some day scientists may find a definitive answer to why people are gay, bi or straight. So far there are speculations and little more than that, and your guess is indeed as good as mine. But is it really important? The horrific story about David Reimer confirms what we already know, that tampering with a person's sexual identity is terribly wrong. Why, then, shouldn't you and I accept ourselves for who we are? I am sure that God does, and that he loves both you and me.
.. then I would not be able to believe in Him anymore .. The reason why I believe is not that I have insight into all mysteries and know the answers to all questions. There are lots of extremely difficult questions that will remain unanswered to both believers and non-believers. I am not even sure that the questions why I am gay, or whether it was God's intention, are among the most important ones that I have at present:
My youngest brother is suffering from myelomatosis (uncurable bone marrow cancer). Chemoterapeutic treatment brought him back to life two and a half years ago, but he still has it, and sooner or later it is going to kill him, unless there is a surprise for us, brought about by God, medical invention, or both. One of the good things that has come with it, which both he and I have benefitted from, is a new closeness and friendship between us, and an exchange of words of brotherly love that our parents never taught us.
One of my young students, one of our nicest, gentlest and most charming boys, is now worried sick. His eyes, usually sparkling with life, reflect sadness and sorrow. Not long ago his parents split up, and now his mother is critically ill. It feels so unfair, and I don't understand why God should want things like this to happen.
To me there is only one valid answer to all this: What I choose to do about the things that are within my reach, including how I treat myself.
This earlier post more than covers what I want to say:
http://forum.iomfats.org/w-agora/index.php?site=forumiomfatsorg&bn=forumiomfatsorg_placeofsafety&key=1110727369&action=view
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Hey David sorry I couldn't reply to you earlier, but you have apparently reached the same conclusion about this that I had. You and I agree about this one I think. I read the book about this case and had some hard times repressing my rage towards Dr.Money.
It might interest you to know that when David Reimer confronted this when he was about 13 and learned the truth about himself, he insisted on being changed back into a boy as much as was possible. He refused to see Dr Money again but was forced by his parents a couple of times. He was completely uncooperative with the Doctor from that time on.
At one time he discovered who the doctor had been who had botched the circumcision and went to visit him carrying his father's pistol with him with the intent to kill him. He found the doctor in his basemment office of this hospital and realized at once that the doctor didnt know at first who he was. He proceeded to tell the doctor who he was because he wanted to make the doctor know who it was that was about to kill him. When the doctor realized it was the boy he botched that circumcision on, he started to cry and begged forgiveness from him. David realized that this guy had been feeling some real remorse about it for all those years and that it was an unfortunate accident.
The book was really emotional to read and so if you get the chance, go find it at the library. Sorry if I initially mispelled the name, but I thought I had copied the name of the book and author ok.
The parents went along with this as they were told it was the best way to deal with what had happened. I dont really blame the parents too much in this as each time they went to the "experts" with their concerns that maybe this wasn't working out right, they were told it was just their inadequate way they went about dealing with their daughter. That it would be ok if they were just more patient, etc. I think really that the whole family was a victim here. Note also that not only did David take his own life, so did his brother a few years later.
Ken
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Second time lucky, I hope! This time I’ve written the response in Word and pasted it across; I’m certainly not typing it a third time!
I’ve already said that I agree entirely with NW’s suggestion that the writer seems to be having difficulty in presenting the information in a balanced and impartial way. I would however go further; a textbook purporting to summarise current research needs to distinguish much more clearly between statistical information and ‘conclusions’ which are little more than tentative suggestions about what the research might mean. In this field there is relatively little hard information and a great deal of speculation. That, of course, is true of other scientific disciplines – but in most fields of research speculation remains mere speculation until it can be supported by further and deeper research.
Conclusions based upon US research need to be interpreted with especial care, for the simple reason that in the United States views on homosexuality are very strongly polarised. It is difficult to see how a research project funded by the religious right or carried out in a University or other research facility controlled by the religious right could be regarded as wholly free from bias. The same is of course true of research linked to the Gay community or its supporters. Unhappily, it isn’t a topic which attracts much research enthusiasm from academics who are not pre-disposed to one side or the other.
Furthermore, although the fiasco of the Reimer twins is not specifically mentioned, other published work by Money IS cited. This, to me, is pretty incredible. Money published ‘research’ using the Reiner twins in support of his view that gender could be engineered, despite the clearly contradictory evidence of David Reimer’s rejection of his female persona from a very early age. He saw what he wanted to see, and ignored what he didn’t want to see. His behaviour was at the very least grossly incompetent; most would say that it was wholly unethical. Against this discredited background, does it make sense to rely on his earlier published work?
Overall, I don’t think that there’s much meat in the sandwich contained in the textbook. The one really significant statistic is the disclosure that the concordance for homosexuality is 52% among monozygotic twins, compared with 22% among dizygotic twins (Bailey and Pillard, 1991). The figures for female twins are similar (48% and 16% respectively). Translating into everyday English, if one male identical twin is gay, there is a 52% probability that the other twin will also be gay, but if they are male fraternal (non-identical) twins this probability is only 22%. There are of course several relevant questions not answered in the textbook. Were the twins in the study separated at birth or brought up together? At what age was homosexuality regarded as established? Nevertheless, assuming that the criteria in each study were identical, the results constitute pretty convincing evidence that there is a genetic component in homosexuality. Equally, however, the fact that there is a 48% probability that a gay identical twin will NOT have a gay twin brother demonstrates that genetics cannot be the only factor – identical twins have identical genetic inheritance. So there must also be an ‘environmental’ factor – something occurring after conception - as well. We are left with a possible hypothesis not mentioned in the text – that genetics may create a predisposition to homosexuality, but an environmental factor is required in order to ‘throw the switch’. What further research has been conducted in this area? If there is none – why?
One paragraph of the textbook begins with this sentence: “Adult gay men describe themselves as having felt ‘different’ since early childhood.” There’s no attribution for this statement, and I am aware of no scientific basis for it. Certainly some do, and have said as much in this forum, but many others don’t become aware of their orientation until puberty or even beyond. Many str8 kids don’t experience sexual attraction until puberty, though some certainly do have sexual urges at a much earlier age. Why, then, should this factor be seen as significant in differentiating homosexuals?
To establish the true causes of homosexuality, the research needs to be expanded horizontally; are the conclusions drawn validated by similar studies in other cultures and other countries? The conclusions also need to show vertical integrity – that is, they must not be inconsistent with what we know from the historical record. The genetic make-up of mankind has been pretty well constant for many thousands of years. The article quotes the percentage of homosexuals as 4% (a figure which has been challenged in recent years) and goes on to say that an even smaller percentage is bisexual. So the aggregate must by inference be somewhere between 5% and 7%. It must follow that the remaining 93% to 95% are exclusively heterosexual. How can these figures be reconciled with the position in Ancient Greece around 2500 years ago? Greeks were meticulous recorders, and we are told that at the time of Alexander the Great the average age of a male at marriage was 30-32, whilst the average age of a female was 12-14. Though it is hard to imagine that there was not a fair amount of heterosexual dalliance, we are told that the vast majority of males were bisexual, and entered into same-sex relationships as a matter of course in their youth, many continuing to do so throughout their lives. That doesn’t sound like a tiny percentage, does it? In fact, it strongly suggests that social acceptance or opposition has a very material influence upon the percentage of the population which is willing to admit same-sex attraction. Surely it must significantly affect the numbers willing to admit such attraction to themselves, let alone to prying researchers?
You’ll have gathered by now that I’m not impressed with the textbook – but if you disagree with anything I’ve said don’t hesitate to say so!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Jedediah
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Likes it here |
Location: Made in NZ
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 170
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Whoah! - What he said!!
(Malt Whisky must b brain food.)
Cheers
E Te Atua tukuna mai ki au te Mauri tauki te tango i nga mea
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Cossie,
You never cease to amaze me.
Best wishes,
Deeej
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Bad scientists doing bad science.
In the Victorian era there were no end of "doctors" roaming the halls promoting useless treatments and useless paraphanaelia claiming to treat and heal all sorts of illnesses....
Before that there were snake oil peddelars....
As long as there is an agenda there will be a theory along with a witchdoctor to plaquate it.
In the 60's, electro-shock therapy and ice immersions and sometimes labotomy, coupled with thorazene and other drugs were administered with all the flourish and pomp and circumstance of a three ring circus.
All done in the name of progress in science.
All done with no good results.
Sooooooooo........ Today, you all can bitch and moan about what happened.... You can render opinion on the travesty of the culture that allowed these practices to flourish and prosper.... But, unless you road that pony you have not one iota of a clue as to what that ride was like.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
(snip)
> Sooooooooo........ Today, you all can bitch and moan about what happened.... You can render opinion on the travesty of the culture that allowed these practices to flourish and prosper.... But, unless you road that pony you have not one iota of a clue as to what that ride was like.
Of course that's true, Marc: none of us who have not experienced it can know what it was like, any more than I can know what it was like to be labelled with the infamous pink triangle in the Camps. Or to experience such rejection by friends and family that suicide is seen as the only way out. We have all had our own rides - some rougher than others.
But what matters to me is not that history, but how - out of the empathy that I hope we can all feel for ALL those who have suffered in whatever way for their sexual orientation - we can best prevent such abuses.
This really isn't a problem of science - be it good science or bad science. Science gives us understanding of how-to. It DOES NOT tell us if we should. That's why most research institutions have Ethics Committees or similar, and why courses on ethical considerations are increasingly required for science students at University level. And that - above all - is why my criticism of the extract focussed on the value-laden language it showed: such disguised moral judgenents have NO PLACE WHATSOEVER in a textbook of that nature.
Science & Technology have (probably) given us the power to extinguish all life on this planet through saturation atomic bombing. It really doesn't matter if the science is "good" (the bombs will do this) or "bad" (some life may survive) - the attempt to exinguish all life would be immoral regardless of the science (IMO)! Similarly with homosexuality: the important debate is not whether we *can* change sexual orientation, but whether we *should want to or attempt to*, and what steps (if any) we as a society think it appropriate to take to ensure freedom from any such attempts.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Thanks, NW.
To me, at least, your conclusion is exactly what it all boils down to.
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I think you hit the nail on the head with, "Unhappily, it isn’t a topic which attracts much research enthusiasm from academics who are not pre-disposed to one side or the other."
I agree with a large portion of your synopsis. I hadn't really read the actual excerpt and had merely skimmed it as it wasn't relevant to my current research, but it is interesting that a large percentage of the citations where from the 60's and 70's. I think that right there speaks heavily for the information provided. It does however suffer from making gross generalizations.
What I mainly found interesting was the section on steroids and hormones, and the brain (I was studying changes during puberty and the text had a some easily corrborated information regarding that). The birth order information was also interesting. One of these days when I have access to a large library I shall search out some of the referenced texts in this area. I really hate reading sitations and not having the referenced texts available. I like primary sources in conjunction with secondary sources.
Another thing that may shed some light on the numerous mentions of gender identity in the section is that it directly followed a section on gender identity.
It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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All true......
But one thing you ald the others omit from your mussings is the fact that in your casual discussions of these topics you all bring full to the forefront the experiences of past victome that see the discourse.
This, even for all the benefits of discussion are by no means beneficial to people who have lived through it and therefore are essentialy harmful to their well being in this time and place.
Some things are just better left alone....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What conclusion do you reach for the victoms that read this thread?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc,
>But one thing you ald the others omit from your mussings is the fact that in your casual discussions of these topics you all bring full to the forefront the experiences of past victome that see the discourse.
In other words, because you're here you'd rather we didn't discuss this topic?
I take your point, but I think this conversation is actually very interesting to most of us, who may not have been aware of the research it discusses. It is not in any way "casual", except for the fact that it's being discussed on a board rather than within a university or academic facility. I don't think there is anyone here who would not utterly condemn unnecessary and unscientific "research" where it is based entirely on conjecture and shows no regard for human suffering.
I myself have a particular dislike for clinical psychologists and psychotherapists, because I was in a psychiatric hospital under an inexperienced and stupid woman in 2000 and I have never fully recovered. It doesn't prevent me from discussing psychological research in a critical and scientific manner.
>This, even for all the benefits of discussion are by no means beneficial to people who have lived through it and therefore are essentialy harmful to their well being in this time and place.
Which aspects? I don't think there is anything inherently harmful in the things that other people have said. They all seem supportive to me. If you'd rather not think about it, you don't need to join in the conversation.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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We will always have quackery. Odd that the Victorians never suggested circumcision as a cure for homosexuality as well as for masturbation, but it is now suggested as the panacea for HIV prophylaxis. Ah well.
I never rode that pony of treatment for homosexuality, but I was terrified of it. I would have lied, cheated, wriggled and died instead of riding it. And my fear of it "turned me str8", because it led to my not pursuing boys but pursuing girls, despite being very gay indeed.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I do not disagree that it causes an adverse reaction. It causes one in me and I was simply afraid of it, I never experienced it.
I disagree about keeping quiet about it. Keeping quiet means it can happen again.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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My university, Royal Holloway, was set up by a quack -- Thomas Holloway, who became one of the richest men in Britain through selling patent pills and ointments, all of which were later proven to do nothing at all.
I still wonder if there were people who bought the pills hoping it would cure them of something that eventually became fatal. Was it right that he should make money out of the suffering of others?
Is it right because he was a major benefactor and philanthropist?
He also set up a sanitorium for well-off but loopy relatives (or relatives you'd rather everyone thought were loopy).
Sorry, drifting hopelessly off-topic here.
David
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Marc
with all respect for your experiences and feelings, I cannot agree that this is an area best left alone. I am truly sorry that you find this thread stirs such painful memories for you, and you may be better off ignoring posts on this thread. But I make no apology for continuing this topic: I believe it is important to all of us.
Whether it be the Nazi Camps, the inhuman wing of the pseudo-medical establishment, or the false-religious brainwashing of "ex-gay" movements, these things happened (or are still happening). They can only be effectively countered by dragging their shady deeds into the light - exposing them to the condemnation of society at large. The "price of liberty is eternal vigilance", and in order to preserve and increase our liberty as gay men, we must excercise appropriate vigilance ... which I believe includes recognising that "those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it".
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Marc, I agree that it is uncomfortable to discuss these things. However, If these things dont see the light of day and they are buried, then no one will know about them. A lot of horrible things have been stoped because people found out and even those who have not suffered have stood up and made them stop. You dont have to be a victim to know that something is wrong and horrible. What I have heard has made me cautious about who knows Im gay. I dont have to experience something to know I dont like it. The more people who know that a thing is wrong, the less chance it will have to happen.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It does happen...... every time it is brought up......
again and again and again......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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:-/ ........ sigh.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It, to me is as harmful as saying to a kid with a gun in his mouth.....
Just one quick pull....
As you could obviously tell.... I waited a good span of time to let this run it's course and fall to the wayside.... as they have done in the past.... But enough is enough....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But you see.... This is not a history course.... It is a group of people that, because of their orientation, would never consider repeating these attrocities.
But I see the general gyst of the conversation....
To hell with what I find is harmful.... I am just supposed to suck it up and deal with it....
But never attempt to tell someone that their writing sucks for it may hurt their feelings....
Do we not see a paradox here?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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Actually, no. Not at all "to hell with your feelings". I know I cannto know how much it hurts you. I can know how much it hurts me, and I never went through it.
The two items you are seeking to compare are not comparable, and I am sticking to the concerns in this thread, not the other one.
No matter how many times we see something it always hurts. Possibly there is so much suffering in your case that the hurt never becomes less. Only you can know that.
I agree that the people here would not perpetrate such awful treatment on another human being. So yes, in that way we are preaching to the choir. But in another way we are preaching to the world.
Search engines pick this forum up (a good time to remind people that search engines pick any forum up, and pick up whatever detaisl we post there). People who read these posts, these threads are not us, here. They are the very people who might, all unthinking, have sought in soe near or far future, to "help gay people" by "curing them".
If this thead discourages one such from perpetrating these evils on another sentient human being, surely that is to the good.
But that does not help you. How may we help you? How may we help other victims of institutionalised abuse?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Are we actually referring to the same thread here?
(a) You're not a kid with a gun in your mouth.
(b) If you feel like putting a gun in your mouth, then quite frankly it is not something we can deal with here. You need real life help.
>As you could obviously tell.... I waited a good span of time to let this run it's course and fall to the wayside.... as they have done in the past.... But enough is enough....
What the fuck? This thread is not aimed at you. It is aimed at those people who are interested. If you're not interested, don't join in.
Is this another thread you intend to scupper through sheer bloody-mindedness?
There are certain subjects that I am very, very touchy on, but I would not dream of telling people "enough is enough" when they were happily having a conversation that had nothing to do with me. I would ignore their thread. Why can't you do that?
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Actually, There is nothing that will stop the night horrors....
4 out of seven nights a week I am awakened by reliving being strapped into the chair.....
It never stops..... I have tried as you well know, therapy, many many many times.....
The dreams still come.....
Sometimes, when these threads come up I find myself getting so wound up, so upset I come awake in my chair from what must be described as a near catatonic state.... drenched in sweat and shaking.... Sometimes I become sick and dont even realize it....
Do you remember how it was when we had that rather bizzare conversation so long ago?.... How upsetting it was.... Well, nothing has changed....
Being suedo-altruistic and thinking these things help the vast world out there is a bit egocentric.... Commendable, yes.... but egocentric none the less....
Whats so wrong with helping the one that cries in pain?
You want to help? I mean realy help? Let the memories slip back into that safe dark place....
Otherwise........
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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So you are saying I have no right to voise what happens to be distressing to me?
Well, you ARE full of yourself arent you?
I know full well what this thread is about! All you have the ability to do is read the history of these attrocities....
I was there!
As pissed aqs I am right now.... As much animosity as I feel toward you at this moment.... I would not wish what I went through on you.... Or anyone....
And believe me when I say that a couple of bad therapy sessions do not by any stretch of the immagination compare to a trip through the chair!
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I take back the line:
>Is this another thread you intend to scupper through sheer bloody-mindedness?
as I appreciate in this case that your personal history means that the subject is an upsetting one for you, and that your motives for complaining may be different this time.
However, I still don't understand why you can't just not look at the thread if it upsets you so much. Isn't you bringing up the subject yourself, arguing about it, reading all our justifications, etc., much more likely to upset you than just ignoring it?
The thing is, this whole subject may seem irrelevant to you, but, especially to us young people, it's important history, and it's interesting to anyone who wants to understand why and how we are gay. History is about avoiding the mistakes of the past, and that means knowing what they were. Would you have all history banned in case it upsets those who were involved in it? Would it be better if we all pretended the Holocaust never happened?
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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So you want to know why you are gay?
You are gay for the same reason heteros are str8.
Because you are....
As for getting upset, That I have little control over.... When it comes to this subject if it happens it happens....
Guns, quite a long time ago Tim convinced me to rid myself of the guns in the house.... It took 4 police officers to haul them out....
There was never one out of my reach....
The holocaust..... Why does this subject and the holocaust always have to be compared?
On the one hand there were millions of Jews persecuted.......
On the other all I can referance is me and where I was put and what was done.
I guess it all boils down to proxcimity.... One feels the pain that rests closest to the nerve.
And I'm sorry I yelled at you.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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You are aware that you're the one who brought them up, right?
Before you did we were having a purely academic discussion about psychologists and psychological research.
The more YOU discuss it, it seems to me, the more details you bring up yourself. Why not just walk away? Or are you posting the details because you want so much to be right that you don't actually care how much pain it causes?
For what it's worth, I wish we weren't having this conversation. In no way would I belittle the horrible experiences you had. But I don't think they can be used as tools to manipulate other people. It trivialises them.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I know these things can not be swept under the carpet!
I know these discussions hurt right to the core of what holds me together to see unfold.
I know I blow it all out of proportion because I am not supposed to let my feelings take control of me.
I know that sometimes the beast gets free.
I know I don't really matter in the scheme of things.
I know I wish I was stronger.
I wish everything had been kept in that dark place.
I wish I were nevermore......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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In a spirit of even handedness, Deej, I need to take issue with the tone of your post. I appreciate your opinion, but I think it should be stated differently and depersonalised.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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>So you want to know why you are gay?
>You are gay for the same reason heteros are str8.
But that is not a real answer. Why are heteros straight? If not why, how are they straight? What is the difference between me and them?
I like to know why, for the same reason that anyone wants to know why. Because I would like to know how the world works. I want to understand what it is that made me this way. It doesn't mean I want to change it. It doesn't mean I want to prevent it. It doesn't mean I want to upset other people who are happy the way they are.
Science is about understanding, nothing more. Anyone who uses research to affect other people -- good research or bad research, it doesn't matter -- against their will is beyond redemption, as far as I'm concerned. But a person who just seeks knowledge and understanding is fine, provided he knows when and, more importantly, when not to use the knowledge he gains.
The only conflict that I can see is that there is a limited amount of space on this board and that sometimes the scientists among us are interested in discussing something that other people would rather not know about. Unless Tim were to create a new board just for scholarly discussion I don't see how it can be avoided.
I'm sorry I was rude to you, Marc.
David
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I'm sorry I was rude to you, Marc. I'm embarrassed that I swore. And I'm not quite sure why I did, either. As Timmy has pointed out, it was entirely out of proportion.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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It seems my "Even handedness" post was not required.
I'd like to thank you both for coming down to earth.
Marc, nothing here is designed, nor intended, to hurt anyone, not you and not anyone else. I am persoannly saddened that you have this raw nerve still, and I know why you have it. Yet I wish with all my heart it were not so.
If I go back to the conversatiosn around the time you were brave enough to remove the guns, an awful lot of guns. you were also brave enough to talk, selectively, about the time you were treated in that place. At the time it seemed to allow you to become a little freer of the demons it caused.
Would doing what you and I did then, but possibly using a different talk partner be of use to you?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But why is it important to know the whys and wherefores of what makes you the way you are and me the way I am?
Perhaps, just perhaps we are not supposed to understand these things and are just supposed to cherish the differance.
Yes, of course science is about understanding and delving into the intelectual unknown.... But just like in the real world, if you step on a toe there is only two actions that can take place.... You can either remove your foot or you can gring it in harder.
As you say, this is a small board and if someone hollers OUCH then it might be nice is once and a while the foot stopped grinding..... Maybe even if just once.
As for rudeness..... I know...
You realy are nice when you want to be....
Huggs tight......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It's OK.....
We fixed it....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Its OK.....
I've heard the word before,
But, frankly I was surprised to hear you belch it out.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Science... well, I don't know, really. It's an extension of curiosity. And curiosity's an in-built human trait, presumably an evolutionary thing -- if we weren't curious, then we'd still be living in caves. Or we wouldn't exist at all, because we'd have died out. Science has, after all, got us decent houses and motor cars and computers and telecommunications and virtually everything we take for granted, so it can't all be bad.
As for the human mind... well, it's so complicated that I am very dubious of anyone who pretends to understand it. I honestly don't think that will change in our lifetimes. In the meantime, anyone who pretends otherwise (except on a very, very basic level) is just a modern-day quack.
Hugs, Marc. It's nice to know you.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I dont know.
yes
whats been bothering me has been building up for weeks and the dreams are getting more vivid and frequent..... I get so upset I seethe until I explode.... I get so entrenched with these images that I feel I am slipping away.
This thread about "experimentation" just pushed the red button ....
I remember sometimes as they were tightening the straps the room would fill up with what I thought were students. I remember them commenting on what happened to me as the voltage was cranked up.... How they seemed to be laughing....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Deeej wrote:
>
> Hugs, Marc. It's nice to know you.
>
> David
I have been here for some great while now. Haven't you noticed?
I wish I knew why the flipping hell I am bawlling right now?
I don't feel very well....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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