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Thanks, NW.
To me, at least, your conclusion is exactly what it all boils down to.
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I think you hit the nail on the head with, "Unhappily, it isn’t a topic which attracts much research enthusiasm from academics who are not pre-disposed to one side or the other."
I agree with a large portion of your synopsis. I hadn't really read the actual excerpt and had merely skimmed it as it wasn't relevant to my current research, but it is interesting that a large percentage of the citations where from the 60's and 70's. I think that right there speaks heavily for the information provided. It does however suffer from making gross generalizations.
What I mainly found interesting was the section on steroids and hormones, and the brain (I was studying changes during puberty and the text had a some easily corrborated information regarding that). The birth order information was also interesting. One of these days when I have access to a large library I shall search out some of the referenced texts in this area. I really hate reading sitations and not having the referenced texts available. I like primary sources in conjunction with secondary sources.
Another thing that may shed some light on the numerous mentions of gender identity in the section is that it directly followed a section on gender identity.
It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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All true......
But one thing you ald the others omit from your mussings is the fact that in your casual discussions of these topics you all bring full to the forefront the experiences of past victome that see the discourse.
This, even for all the benefits of discussion are by no means beneficial to people who have lived through it and therefore are essentialy harmful to their well being in this time and place.
Some things are just better left alone....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What conclusion do you reach for the victoms that read this thread?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc,
>But one thing you ald the others omit from your mussings is the fact that in your casual discussions of these topics you all bring full to the forefront the experiences of past victome that see the discourse.
In other words, because you're here you'd rather we didn't discuss this topic?
I take your point, but I think this conversation is actually very interesting to most of us, who may not have been aware of the research it discusses. It is not in any way "casual", except for the fact that it's being discussed on a board rather than within a university or academic facility. I don't think there is anyone here who would not utterly condemn unnecessary and unscientific "research" where it is based entirely on conjecture and shows no regard for human suffering.
I myself have a particular dislike for clinical psychologists and psychotherapists, because I was in a psychiatric hospital under an inexperienced and stupid woman in 2000 and I have never fully recovered. It doesn't prevent me from discussing psychological research in a critical and scientific manner.
>This, even for all the benefits of discussion are by no means beneficial to people who have lived through it and therefore are essentialy harmful to their well being in this time and place.
Which aspects? I don't think there is anything inherently harmful in the things that other people have said. They all seem supportive to me. If you'd rather not think about it, you don't need to join in the conversation.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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We will always have quackery. Odd that the Victorians never suggested circumcision as a cure for homosexuality as well as for masturbation, but it is now suggested as the panacea for HIV prophylaxis. Ah well.
I never rode that pony of treatment for homosexuality, but I was terrified of it. I would have lied, cheated, wriggled and died instead of riding it. And my fear of it "turned me str8", because it led to my not pursuing boys but pursuing girls, despite being very gay indeed.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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I do not disagree that it causes an adverse reaction. It causes one in me and I was simply afraid of it, I never experienced it.
I disagree about keeping quiet about it. Keeping quiet means it can happen again.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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My university, Royal Holloway, was set up by a quack -- Thomas Holloway, who became one of the richest men in Britain through selling patent pills and ointments, all of which were later proven to do nothing at all.
I still wonder if there were people who bought the pills hoping it would cure them of something that eventually became fatal. Was it right that he should make money out of the suffering of others?
Is it right because he was a major benefactor and philanthropist?
He also set up a sanitorium for well-off but loopy relatives (or relatives you'd rather everyone thought were loopy).
Sorry, drifting hopelessly off-topic here.
David
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Marc
with all respect for your experiences and feelings, I cannot agree that this is an area best left alone. I am truly sorry that you find this thread stirs such painful memories for you, and you may be better off ignoring posts on this thread. But I make no apology for continuing this topic: I believe it is important to all of us.
Whether it be the Nazi Camps, the inhuman wing of the pseudo-medical establishment, or the false-religious brainwashing of "ex-gay" movements, these things happened (or are still happening). They can only be effectively countered by dragging their shady deeds into the light - exposing them to the condemnation of society at large. The "price of liberty is eternal vigilance", and in order to preserve and increase our liberty as gay men, we must excercise appropriate vigilance ... which I believe includes recognising that "those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it".
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Marc, I agree that it is uncomfortable to discuss these things. However, If these things dont see the light of day and they are buried, then no one will know about them. A lot of horrible things have been stoped because people found out and even those who have not suffered have stood up and made them stop. You dont have to be a victim to know that something is wrong and horrible. What I have heard has made me cautious about who knows Im gay. I dont have to experience something to know I dont like it. The more people who know that a thing is wrong, the less chance it will have to happen.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It does happen...... every time it is brought up......
again and again and again......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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:-/ ........ sigh.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It, to me is as harmful as saying to a kid with a gun in his mouth.....
Just one quick pull....
As you could obviously tell.... I waited a good span of time to let this run it's course and fall to the wayside.... as they have done in the past.... But enough is enough....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But you see.... This is not a history course.... It is a group of people that, because of their orientation, would never consider repeating these attrocities.
But I see the general gyst of the conversation....
To hell with what I find is harmful.... I am just supposed to suck it up and deal with it....
But never attempt to tell someone that their writing sucks for it may hurt their feelings....
Do we not see a paradox here?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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Actually, no. Not at all "to hell with your feelings". I know I cannto know how much it hurts you. I can know how much it hurts me, and I never went through it.
The two items you are seeking to compare are not comparable, and I am sticking to the concerns in this thread, not the other one.
No matter how many times we see something it always hurts. Possibly there is so much suffering in your case that the hurt never becomes less. Only you can know that.
I agree that the people here would not perpetrate such awful treatment on another human being. So yes, in that way we are preaching to the choir. But in another way we are preaching to the world.
Search engines pick this forum up (a good time to remind people that search engines pick any forum up, and pick up whatever detaisl we post there). People who read these posts, these threads are not us, here. They are the very people who might, all unthinking, have sought in soe near or far future, to "help gay people" by "curing them".
If this thead discourages one such from perpetrating these evils on another sentient human being, surely that is to the good.
But that does not help you. How may we help you? How may we help other victims of institutionalised abuse?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Are we actually referring to the same thread here?
(a) You're not a kid with a gun in your mouth.
(b) If you feel like putting a gun in your mouth, then quite frankly it is not something we can deal with here. You need real life help.
>As you could obviously tell.... I waited a good span of time to let this run it's course and fall to the wayside.... as they have done in the past.... But enough is enough....
What the fuck? This thread is not aimed at you. It is aimed at those people who are interested. If you're not interested, don't join in.
Is this another thread you intend to scupper through sheer bloody-mindedness?
There are certain subjects that I am very, very touchy on, but I would not dream of telling people "enough is enough" when they were happily having a conversation that had nothing to do with me. I would ignore their thread. Why can't you do that?
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Actually, There is nothing that will stop the night horrors....
4 out of seven nights a week I am awakened by reliving being strapped into the chair.....
It never stops..... I have tried as you well know, therapy, many many many times.....
The dreams still come.....
Sometimes, when these threads come up I find myself getting so wound up, so upset I come awake in my chair from what must be described as a near catatonic state.... drenched in sweat and shaking.... Sometimes I become sick and dont even realize it....
Do you remember how it was when we had that rather bizzare conversation so long ago?.... How upsetting it was.... Well, nothing has changed....
Being suedo-altruistic and thinking these things help the vast world out there is a bit egocentric.... Commendable, yes.... but egocentric none the less....
Whats so wrong with helping the one that cries in pain?
You want to help? I mean realy help? Let the memories slip back into that safe dark place....
Otherwise........
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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So you are saying I have no right to voise what happens to be distressing to me?
Well, you ARE full of yourself arent you?
I know full well what this thread is about! All you have the ability to do is read the history of these attrocities....
I was there!
As pissed aqs I am right now.... As much animosity as I feel toward you at this moment.... I would not wish what I went through on you.... Or anyone....
And believe me when I say that a couple of bad therapy sessions do not by any stretch of the immagination compare to a trip through the chair!
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I take back the line:
>Is this another thread you intend to scupper through sheer bloody-mindedness?
as I appreciate in this case that your personal history means that the subject is an upsetting one for you, and that your motives for complaining may be different this time.
However, I still don't understand why you can't just not look at the thread if it upsets you so much. Isn't you bringing up the subject yourself, arguing about it, reading all our justifications, etc., much more likely to upset you than just ignoring it?
The thing is, this whole subject may seem irrelevant to you, but, especially to us young people, it's important history, and it's interesting to anyone who wants to understand why and how we are gay. History is about avoiding the mistakes of the past, and that means knowing what they were. Would you have all history banned in case it upsets those who were involved in it? Would it be better if we all pretended the Holocaust never happened?
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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So you want to know why you are gay?
You are gay for the same reason heteros are str8.
Because you are....
As for getting upset, That I have little control over.... When it comes to this subject if it happens it happens....
Guns, quite a long time ago Tim convinced me to rid myself of the guns in the house.... It took 4 police officers to haul them out....
There was never one out of my reach....
The holocaust..... Why does this subject and the holocaust always have to be compared?
On the one hand there were millions of Jews persecuted.......
On the other all I can referance is me and where I was put and what was done.
I guess it all boils down to proxcimity.... One feels the pain that rests closest to the nerve.
And I'm sorry I yelled at you.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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You are aware that you're the one who brought them up, right?
Before you did we were having a purely academic discussion about psychologists and psychological research.
The more YOU discuss it, it seems to me, the more details you bring up yourself. Why not just walk away? Or are you posting the details because you want so much to be right that you don't actually care how much pain it causes?
For what it's worth, I wish we weren't having this conversation. In no way would I belittle the horrible experiences you had. But I don't think they can be used as tools to manipulate other people. It trivialises them.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I know these things can not be swept under the carpet!
I know these discussions hurt right to the core of what holds me together to see unfold.
I know I blow it all out of proportion because I am not supposed to let my feelings take control of me.
I know that sometimes the beast gets free.
I know I don't really matter in the scheme of things.
I know I wish I was stronger.
I wish everything had been kept in that dark place.
I wish I were nevermore......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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In a spirit of even handedness, Deej, I need to take issue with the tone of your post. I appreciate your opinion, but I think it should be stated differently and depersonalised.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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>So you want to know why you are gay?
>You are gay for the same reason heteros are str8.
But that is not a real answer. Why are heteros straight? If not why, how are they straight? What is the difference between me and them?
I like to know why, for the same reason that anyone wants to know why. Because I would like to know how the world works. I want to understand what it is that made me this way. It doesn't mean I want to change it. It doesn't mean I want to prevent it. It doesn't mean I want to upset other people who are happy the way they are.
Science is about understanding, nothing more. Anyone who uses research to affect other people -- good research or bad research, it doesn't matter -- against their will is beyond redemption, as far as I'm concerned. But a person who just seeks knowledge and understanding is fine, provided he knows when and, more importantly, when not to use the knowledge he gains.
The only conflict that I can see is that there is a limited amount of space on this board and that sometimes the scientists among us are interested in discussing something that other people would rather not know about. Unless Tim were to create a new board just for scholarly discussion I don't see how it can be avoided.
I'm sorry I was rude to you, Marc.
David
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I'm sorry I was rude to you, Marc. I'm embarrassed that I swore. And I'm not quite sure why I did, either. As Timmy has pointed out, it was entirely out of proportion.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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It seems my "Even handedness" post was not required.
I'd like to thank you both for coming down to earth.
Marc, nothing here is designed, nor intended, to hurt anyone, not you and not anyone else. I am persoannly saddened that you have this raw nerve still, and I know why you have it. Yet I wish with all my heart it were not so.
If I go back to the conversatiosn around the time you were brave enough to remove the guns, an awful lot of guns. you were also brave enough to talk, selectively, about the time you were treated in that place. At the time it seemed to allow you to become a little freer of the demons it caused.
Would doing what you and I did then, but possibly using a different talk partner be of use to you?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But why is it important to know the whys and wherefores of what makes you the way you are and me the way I am?
Perhaps, just perhaps we are not supposed to understand these things and are just supposed to cherish the differance.
Yes, of course science is about understanding and delving into the intelectual unknown.... But just like in the real world, if you step on a toe there is only two actions that can take place.... You can either remove your foot or you can gring it in harder.
As you say, this is a small board and if someone hollers OUCH then it might be nice is once and a while the foot stopped grinding..... Maybe even if just once.
As for rudeness..... I know...
You realy are nice when you want to be....
Huggs tight......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It's OK.....
We fixed it....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Its OK.....
I've heard the word before,
But, frankly I was surprised to hear you belch it out.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Science... well, I don't know, really. It's an extension of curiosity. And curiosity's an in-built human trait, presumably an evolutionary thing -- if we weren't curious, then we'd still be living in caves. Or we wouldn't exist at all, because we'd have died out. Science has, after all, got us decent houses and motor cars and computers and telecommunications and virtually everything we take for granted, so it can't all be bad.
As for the human mind... well, it's so complicated that I am very dubious of anyone who pretends to understand it. I honestly don't think that will change in our lifetimes. In the meantime, anyone who pretends otherwise (except on a very, very basic level) is just a modern-day quack.
Hugs, Marc. It's nice to know you.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I dont know.
yes
whats been bothering me has been building up for weeks and the dreams are getting more vivid and frequent..... I get so upset I seethe until I explode.... I get so entrenched with these images that I feel I am slipping away.
This thread about "experimentation" just pushed the red button ....
I remember sometimes as they were tightening the straps the room would fill up with what I thought were students. I remember them commenting on what happened to me as the voltage was cranked up.... How they seemed to be laughing....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Deeej wrote:
>
> Hugs, Marc. It's nice to know you.
>
> David
I have been here for some great while now. Haven't you noticed?
I wish I knew why the flipping hell I am bawlling right now?
I don't feel very well....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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I suppose they may, some of them, have found your plight "amusing". Other reasons for laughter are horror. We laugh to cover our confusion at what is going on.
That doesn't mean the victim knows that
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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>I have been here for some great while now. Haven't you noticed?
Well, it's still nice to know you, Marc. 
David
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Marc, you know Im your friend. When you told me what happened and I read what happened, I cried. That should never have happened. It reminded me of the Romans in the collisium enjoying the horror being played our in front of them. The people who did that to you and the ones who laughed, have secured themselves a place in hell. You said this was like telling a kid with a gun in his mouth, just one quick squeez. I was that kid with a gun in his mouth. My best friend stopped me. He jambed his finger behind the trigger and made me talk about what was wrong and who hurt me. It doesnt upset me to see this discussed, cause maybe then others can know the kind of hurt gay kids have that make suicide a better deal. I told Timmy everybody should be required to read Misfit. Maybe they could understand what makes us do these things. The Money thing should be known and should be critisized. That way, parents wont be so quick to let a doctor do what he did. They would wait and see how the child develops. I dont think there is anyone here laughing. What I think is that there are a lot of us who wish they had been there and could have stopped it, could have made others see how terribly wrong it was.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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To Marc...
Dear Sir... You are not alone in your fight.. Life is a gigantic struggle to some of us...I have maybe spent more days wishing it was not than I have been contented..
Dear brother marc & friend Kevy..I wish I could help..alas we ultimately struggle alone.. Yet our experience is shared in part by others who also struggle to whatever degree.. My older brother once mentioned about anger that he had to fight against it.. That stuck in my mind.. And I continue to try to stand & fight the bad feelings.. to keep my head on straight so-to-speak.. and that dear bro of mine has been on drugs & disability pension for mental illness many years..
I pray to whatever Higher Power there is that He give my friend Marc some relief from the trauma that accompanies him yet to this day.. As a prisoner of war who's scarred by his mistreatment.. we appear normal on the outside..yet inside no one but God knows our crazy feelings..
Marc I know you will hang in there..I know life often seems not worth living..yet I've been too chicken to discontinue it.. and it does slowly get better for me.. I'm sorry for the pain you still feel..and you asked us to just let it lie..I'm sorry to have continued it..
if I were near I would've hugged you.. if you'd let me.. That stuff will be dealt with one day.. recompense will be required..it will be one day straightened out.. Man! Hang in there just one more day.. you are appreciated by more than u realize.. though that does zilch to lessen your pains..
If there is a higher power in charge over this earth & he doesn't straighten out all wrongs & iniquity ultimately..then he's worth less than sh*t.. but I know that this aint so..though not in our time..he will make it right..you may rest assured..you will be rewarded for what you've endured & the character you've attained. you are stronger in some ways than many on this earth..your life will not be wasted.. your experiences will be as lessons..and your knowledge will be put to use.
All i can do now is love & encourage..& I know there is little that can be said to help one so despairing.. it is endurance pure & simple. A dark cloud & maddening dreams & thoughts from a higher evil power that we have no strength against.. I pray God to remove this trial from our friend now..He cannot endure much more..& what good does it attain?? Flesh & blood have now power against such adversity.. spare him now ..return calm thoughts & mind to Marc again.
Man I stand here for you.. and stop my life to think of you.. distant tho close in emotions..I know what u struggle against.. that which has tormented me since youth. A lesser man would call it quits by now! You're to be respected & admired by all..
Silence & patience as we stand with our friend here..
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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This post is, in a sense, directed towards Marc, but not with any critical intention. Only the thickest-skinned and most self-orientated specimens of mankind could remain unmoved by the horrendous experiences he has suffered. I am not presuming what I cannot know, but I would guess that those experiences may colour his thinking more deeply than even Marc himself realises. I wholly accept much of what Marc has to say but, when we enter the field of moral philosophy, wider principles need to be examined. Without (I hope) expanding the post to a full-blown thesis, I’ll try to comment on the various constructive points made so far, and to explain why there are some respects in which I cannot agree with Marc, even though he has all my sympathy.
First of all, I wholeheartedly agree that the aspects of the human condition which are least well understood will attract the least scrupulous researchers – though the vast majority of those in the medical profession do apply meticulous standards in their work. The less scrupulous are motivated by precisely the same objectives as any other ambitious individual in the academic or entrepreneurial fields – the quest for respect, status and wealth in whatever proportions they consider appropriate. The way to achieve those objectives is to acquire a reputation; that is what will lead to preferment, professorship and every other form of success. The easiest way to acquire a reputation is to display expertise in a field where goalposts are moveable and the competition is minimal. If you can do that in a climate in which the ‘right’ conclusions will enable you to obtain political support from a powerful faction in the community, then so much the better. Research into sexuality is thus a honeypot for those whose self-interest potentially outweighs their ethics. They are not the direct successors of the Victorian pill merchants, because they are not charlatans. They do have medical qualifications but their weakness is a predisposition to pursue a given agenda by doing as Dr. Money did, and seeing only that evidence which they wish to see. So, as I said in my previous post, research into gender orientation needs to be carefully weighed to distinguish between conclusions which are statistically significant and conclusions which are little more than flights of fancy.
I cannot however accept Marc’s assertion that someone who has not shared his experience cannot have ‘one iota of a clue’ what that experience was like. That is manifestly untrue – personal experience is not a precondition of understanding. I am not belittling the horrors of his experience, and I am very glad that I have not shared it, but I think that any humane, imaginative and intelligent individual can go a long way down the road of understanding. It is often those who are appalled by what has happened to their fellow-men who prove to be most effective in protecting others from similar suffering. William Wilberforce, the English Member of Parliament, was never a slave; he was in fact a very rich man. Nevertheless he, more than any other individual, was responsible for the abolition of legal slavery, first in the British West Indies and thereafter throughout the civilised world.
Moving on to NW’s post, I agree with his analysis, except that the history of what has happened to date is, I think, of crucial importance in making ethical judgements for the future. I entirely accept his implied proposition that it would be wrong for medical science to seek to change someone’s gender orientation, but the members of this community are inevitably biased. To a substantial part of the population, being gay is not essentially different from having a cleft palate; it’s a condition which will render the sufferer’s life more difficult. If a cleft palate can be repaired, then why not a same-sex orientation? In purely philosophical terms, I think that NW is right, though it is perfectly possible to mount a logical counter-argument. At a more practical level, however, the evidence of past failures and the righteous indignation which those failures engender provides the strongest available argument against attempting to interfere with orientation.
Marc asks what conclusions should be drawn for those who have been past victims. Obviously, they are all entitled to sympathetic understanding, but I would intuitively expect that on their part a prime concern would be to avoid others suffering as they have done. I fully realise that for some, the trauma is too great to enable them to take an active campaigning role, but I would suggest that it is open to anyone to choose to avoid such participation. I cannot however see that there can be a moral justification for inhibiting discussion among others. This forum is small but, as Timmy has pointed out, the views expressed here may well exert a significantly wider influence. Even if they do not, they help to educate our own small group, and within that group Marc’s personal experiences provide a powerful motivation to learn.
The one thing I simply can’t accept from Marc is his oft-repeated mantra: “So you want to know why you are gay? You are gay for the same reason heteros are str8. Because you are....”. It may work for him, but he has no right to expect it to work for others. Yes, if asked, I would assure someone who is gay that it was neither something for which he was in any way responsible nor something which he could change. I believe that to be true, but I do not and cannot KNOW it to be true, because I do not know what causes a person to be gay. Until we do have an answer, it is inevitable that many will be frustrated. That is part of the human condition; we have a collective need to understand the world and our place in it. For some, this curiosity is stronger than for others, but it is the right of every individual to seek greater knowledge. ‘Because you are’ has overtones of childhood – the response of a parent who, for one reason or another, does not wish to explain.
Turning to David R.’s response to my initial post, I’m generally comfortable with his observations. The stuff about brain structure and function IS interesting, and the answers we seek might well lie in this area, but for the moment there’s a woeful lack of independent corroborative research. That’s why I argued that much of what is said in the entry is mere speculation. As regards the birth order hypothesis, I seem to recollect that a report was linked from this forum in one of our previous discussions. Personally, I think it’s a hoot! If it were truly valid, homosexuality would be rampant in Roman Catholic Western Europe (Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, South Germany, Irish Republic) where larger families are the norm, as compared with Protestant Western Europe (North Germany, Holland, Denmark, Scandinavia and the United Kingdom) where the average family size is very significantly smaller. I am unaware of any evidence whatsoever to confirm this bias, and my own experience (admittedly not carried out scientifically!) suggests that, if anything, the opposite is true. The fetal cell explanation is certainly a possibility, if the basic hypothesis can be supported, but of course in larger families siblings have less privacy, and increased sexual contact may equally be a factor. The short answer, once again, is that the research has not yet been sufficiently underpinned by independent studies elsewhere.
In conclusion, I stress again my sympathy for what Marc has suffered. I would do anything in my power – and I mean that literally, not just as a platitude – to prevent the same thing happening to anyone else. But what we have been discussing in this thread – or at least what I have been trying to discuss – is the broader picture of the confusion between proven fact and wild theorisation in the study of homosexuality. Knowledge of the dark days of Money and his kind is essential for an understanding of the present situation, but although things have improved there is still a long way to go. And no-one can reach that goal unless they walk the road.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Gee Cossie, I think you make my point of arguing about this gay orientation origins when you state:
"We are left with a possible hypothesis not mentioned in the text – that genetics may create a predisposition to homosexuality, but an environmental factor is required in order to ‘throw the switch’. What further research has been conducted in this area? If there is none – why?"
This was exactly what I was getting at in my round about generally fucked up way of saying it. You are actually pointing out all the reasons I have to pick fault with a lot of the conclusions made on both sides of this issue. We are better off to say there is no real correlation and I think what you said about it above here is probably the best conclusion to draw.
I am fairly positive that all the gays I know never wanted to be gay. I dont think we choose being gay any more than we would choose to be born in a ghetto or in some kind of other circumstance. Now why cant there just be some kind of reasoned thinking like yours at all levels? It would save a lot of grief.
Ken
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Damn Cossie you are one of the most articulate people I have met so far! You say it very well and along with what was said by Handyman and others it says it all. We all want to give Marc a hug and he might not survive them all!
Marc, a long time ago (almost 6 years ago) I read your story which you posted on this site. I came as close to crying as I ever have in my life; I don't know why but I didnt even cry when my mother died.
I remember that all you had ever done was to think about having some kind of sexual encounter with your friend and had never actually done anything when all that stuff happened in your life. I may have gotten it wrong, but I think that was about the truth of it. You suffered greatly and if I die before you and can ask anything of God I will ask him to lift all that from you and free you from it all.
We all need to know who and what we are Marc and I guess that is all we are trying to figure out. None of us would want to further any of your pain for sure. All I can say is that reading your story changed my life in some ways and made me see things a lot different than I had. If I had the guts to do it, I would have all my str8t friends read it too.
Ken
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