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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... I very much admire the honesty and integrity of your post. I hope that, one day, you will feel able to tell us more of your history, so that we may learn from your experience.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Praise the lord!!!!!! Ive been cured!!!! )
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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huwar
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Getting started |
Registered: May 2004
Messages: 13
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Cossie, there is little of my history I'd not share (I won't compromise others) if someone wanted to know about it, or if it seemed appropriate to share for another's benefit. This post describing a deliberate and aboveboard "game move" seemed to offer a contrast to marriages prompted by the need to affirm or deny uncomfortable feelings. Also, it seemed it might be useful to let some of the younger men know that there are those of us who are comfortable being gay (I dislike that word for its lack of meaning) for seventy years and more. If you have a question or wish to prick a response e-mail me or bring it up here. I try to read Forum at least once a week. hugh
don't ask the way to peace; peace is the way
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Huwar, Please dont think Im being a smart butt or dont appriciate your input. I see gay guys that are married, some like Cossie or timmy who made the choice out of love but there are some and thats most who marry to cover up who they really are. I dont care how you color it, its wrong. If Matt has to Marry just to satify his church, hide the fact he is gay and live a misserable life isnt right. Its also not right if the wife doenst know, cause when she finds out its gonna hurt. I turned my back on our church because I wouldnt listen to them cut down gays. We have a right to live and be happy, I shouldnt have to marry just to satify the str8t community. I havent heard from Matt and I dont know if he is ok or not. He said if he got the chance he would write, his rents dont know about me. I gave him all the info here and told him to be strong, that we would all be strong for him. He needs to know, he needs to talk to other gay boys and men and be allowed to make up his mind. Im very interested in you getting married to another boy by your classmates. That is so super cool.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Even marrying for love is not enough all the time. So marrying for convention, while "normal" for my generation is just not appropriate nowadays.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Years ago I would have told you to try to remain in the straight world, but I know your feelings probably will not change or go away. You can probably find a way to get along without living in the gay lifestyle and that is only possible if you can ahve feeings of attraction for girls as well as boys. I don't think it is right to get married if you don't have strong feelings for that woman you are promising to become as one. If it fraud to do that. I could not do it myself and have remained unmarried all my life. I also avoided dating as it would give a false idea to any girl I went with. I preferred to live my life in the closet and avoiding having to lie about myself any more than was necessary.
I think it would be a lot easier now to live openly as a gay person, but it will not be easy for everyone. You may have relatives that will openly say you are evil etc. I don't say it is required to tell everyone. I guess it is up to your own estimate of what that will entail. In the long run, it is your life and noone has the right to tell you what is right in that respect as long as you are not violating some law or another.
It is definitely not an easy thing to realize you like guys more than you do girls, if you feel anything sexual towards them at all. Like I say, you dont have to openly declare yourself to everyone, but don't go and live a lie either. In these days you will find much more acceptance than even 10 years ago.
I must say that I dont think God made you gay and you were probably not born that way either, but it makes little difference. You are what you are now regardless of how it came about. I firmly believe that something happens to push you one way or another as to sexuality, but that once that occurs it is pretty much impossible to change it. I always liken it to becoming afraid of heights. Even though you may know the exact reason for it and know it is not reasonable to be afraid, it does no good and you are afraid even though you know it is not logical.
People that will tell you that it is not God's will etc are wrong at best and being evil in some ways at the worst. God loves us all jsut the same.
Ken
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Thanks Deeej for making such kind and caring comments.
Ken
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The challenge he has is that his church is strongly opposed to homosexuality.
It is one thing to make a choice for one's self. But having people thrust the choice upon you makes it no choice at all. He has to give up his faith - hard when it is ingrained in you - or give up his nature - actually impossible.
Or he can do the wise thing and deny it all and stay living that lie until he can leave home.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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A higher power should allow us room to learn & grow.
its easy to appreciate the beauty of young guys matty. wow i saw a couple today that were so pretty that i had to look long & hard to tell if one was a guy or a girl, their long hair was so beautiful too. See they were at that stage in development where the primary male charactaristics weren't so visible yet.
its like loving kittens. they all grow up to be cats but the attraction of kittens is much stronger. guys grow up to be hairy, rough skinned and wrinkled. Women stay pretty longer. What's so hard about undertstanding that? I wasn't attracted to women much once but now i am more. we live & may or may not change. I know it's hard to accept you mind & feelings, but there is a logical explanation for it all!
yeah young any-things always are cuter. even plants! All you're doing, is appreciating the beauty these creatures have in them.. some of it you'd like to get to know better!!
you will be forgiven for whatever you do in ignorance , out of youth, or anything later repented of..(turned from). I doubt anyone here on this board has or would actually thumb his or her nose completely against any higher power if one should reveal itself. If we've not denied the higher power despite FULL knowledge & conviction of His ways, then ve've not comitted the unpardonable sin the Bible speaks about.
Do the best you can, loving is better than fighting. If there is a higher power it will be made obvious eventually. i think you need to be convinced of what you believe before you agree that it's right or wrong. if it means enuf to you then study into it.
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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JFR wrote:
>"In your case, whether or not you chose to be gay is something that your intellectual apparatus will tell you (but you already know the answer). Since you know that you are attracted to other males because that is the way you are and not because you have made a conscious choice in the matter, it must follow according to the teachings of your religion that your sexual orientation is God's will for you."
Because a person has gay feelings definitely does not mean he is gay, tho many have taught that for a decade or more. gay feelings are far more common than people who live a gay lifestyle.
The ones who either choose to live that way, or cannot help but live that way may be called gay if they actively live, practice & support the gay cause. many called straight have all sorts of sexual & other deviant motivations. Gay is a name people can take for themselves. timmy lived straight, denied it for years, but the feelings never went away, so now he embraces it & supports it & considers he's gay..but his neighbors may not consider him gay. it depends on their perspective.
also many people who did feel somewhat or entirely gay have found their feelings to change. some dont. just read the internet & you'll see all the variety of human experience in this arena. my own feelings have varied over the years, but always included appreciation of both sexes.
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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So, you are saying basically, that being gay is wrong and that he will grow out of it And he must wait to grow out of it?
If I've understood you correctly that also means that there is no such thing as homosexuality, with the possible exception of teenagers who find other teenagers attractive.
I do want to check that I've understood you correctly. Because if I understand you correctly I disagree with you entirely.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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There is a firm difference between being able to appreciate both sexes and being aroused by only one of them.
Orientatiion is flexible, certainly. It swings around a base point. It is the base point that determines homosexuality or heterosexuality.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Ted,
>timmy lived straight, denied it for years, but the feelings never went away, so now he embraces it & supports it & considers he's gay..but his neighbors may not consider him gay. it depends on their perspective.
I think Timmy is the only person who can have full insight into his situation. Taking these hypothetical neighbours:
i. If he has not told him he is gay, then they will likely assume he is straight. That would be a perfectly reasonable line of logic, but it's only reasonable because they don't have full information and hence insight.
ii. If he has actually told them he is gay in evident good faith, even if he is married and otherwise behaves in a straight way, then any sensible person would have to suspend judgement and accept what he said. If they refused to, and still maintained that he was straight, then not only would it be both highly impolite, but they would be unable to back up their position, because they could not possibly know what he thinks or feels attracted except through what he has told them. So if they regarded him as something else it would either be through pig-headed denial and/or homophobia, or a complete lack of insight into the situation.
In neither case do I think these are sensible perspectives, so I would be inclined to discount them. As you say, "Gay is a name people can take for themselves", but I think it is more than that -- gay is an identity that other people (or religious or political groups) would be rude to ignore.
David
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Hey I agree with you here Brian. It is wrong to pretend to be in love with someone and marry them to appear to be straight to others. It is an insult to that girl and profoundly wrong. I respected girls enough that I could not consider doing that myself; I would rather take the pressure from others asking when I was going to marry. I never told anyone directly I was gay but I would rebuff questions about my intentions to marry. Once when it appeared a girl was more than just interested in me, I told her it was not my intention to get married etc. I never said I was gay, but I was clear to her that we would not be getting along any further.
If it had become impossible to have her understand, I would have found it necessary to tell her more and that I was gay. I felt bad about it and then just avoided any dating after that.
Matt has to be honest with himself in the first place. He is the only person who can know his feelings and attractions. He should give this a few years and avoid real conflict with his family, in my opinion, until he is old enough to be living on his own anyway. If my feelings and attractions were strong enough for someone and it went in direct conflict with my church, I would find another church. The fact is that God does not hate gays. I believe that whether or not you are born gay or not; I don't think it makes any difference at all to God.
If it is any consolation to you, just remember that Jesus said something to the effect that any time any two of you are gathered in my name, that is my church. So you can find a way to practice your faith one way or another. You will not be cast out from God no matter what your church teaches you.
Ken
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I sent Matt a mail inquiry. I didnt get a mail deamon back so I know the account is still good. I hope he can get the chance to answer. Lets all keep our fingers crossed.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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actually timmy I didn't mean that alone.
I included the thought of it but allowed that some may find they're attracted to same sex their whole life,
some are attracted to older same sex, not just the young ones as I stated,
and some though attracted to same sex don't choose that to be their main focus or sole expression sexually of otherwise affectionately. they may also be attracted to opposite sex.
I try to see the broad view. I try not to generalize, stereotype or pigeon hole anyone.
I don't wanna say, as some on this forum have, that 'you know what you are because of what you feel now.' A person's feelings can change & vary either consciously or unconsciously.
I don't feel it accurate for me to say anyone who has felt same sex attraction is definitely, certainly or solely homosexual.
it is just a feeling many if not most people have at one time or another & they may or may not choose to act on it. that's simple.
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Timmy I see your point but it doesn't include those who can go either way sexually. What if there isn't one sex that attracts more than the other?
You yourself would have to admit that you've been aroused by a female as well as males. Are there any healthy horny men who when snuggled up to a warm friendly familiar naked female in bed wouldn't get aroused? boing.!
Aren't most homosexual men attracted to the younger ones mainly? Especially the memories of the ones they first were attracted to or had relations with? Surely some are not. Most gay men I know of have special feelings mostly for younger guys. I know I do. I believe Timmy says he does. Alot of us are this way. even Deeej has mentioned age limits related to attractiveness.
Does this fact of being attracted mostly to younger guys compare equally with a person that finds most women attractive? it seems unbalanced to determine a person's orientation soley on attraction to a narrow age range of people.
I'm attracted to a wide age range of women but a narrow one of guys. This presents an impracticality for gay men & is why so many older ones don't practice their passions.. because the older gay man would have to find a younger guy to be ideally attracted.
If the gender that arouses a person determines whether he is gay or not, as timmy said, does it make any difference if it is only young ones of that gender?.. as I think maybe true of a lot of gays.
I'm sure a guy could become close friend with another guy and even grow old together as lovers. I don't say that this isn't true or can't be true.
I was just trying to portray the whole spectrum to Matty, and include that gayness in many people's cases is an attraction to or obsession with a subsection of one sex. the subsection being young guys. i know this isn't true for all gays.
I am attracted to young guys generally and a wider age range of women. a naked woman my age may still look attractive to me where as a naked guy my age doesnt attract me as much.
as i've aged heterosexuality fits me better than gayness. sorry older guys, becoming fat, wrinkled, bald & hairy just doesn't do it for me like when you were young!!
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... "Gays like Boys?" for a reply.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I wouldn't be so worried over the situation 
