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Hi NW,
Interesting. I saw the animation earlier, but didn't follow through to the site. Now I have.
I don't have a lot to add, but I was surprised to see the unquestioned assumption that gender-nonconformity is directly related to homosexuality. It made me wonder who set up the site: real gay people, or all-embracing politically correct people who have ironically fallen into one of the traps that they were trying to avoid? Possibly (as NW points out -- "not real men") due to a little homophobia on their side? Perhaps they should add another one to the myth section:
Myth 4: Gay men are camp, prefer girly activities, and were gender-nonconformist when young. (Likewise gay women being butch.)
Or perhaps they shouldn't, because it would undermine much of the site.
It's not helpful to those of us growing up somewhere in the middle -- neither "girly" nor excessively "butch", to feel that you can't be gay and be normal. I, for one, was a sterotypical geek, not arty or terribly creative or fashionable (and I'm still none of those, despite forsaking computers for film).
David
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I wonder what happens if the non-conformist twin turns out not to be gay?
Isn't that possible? The assumption on the part of the programme-makers seems to be that it isn't.
Also that the "normal" twin will not be gay. Which he could be.
Personally, if I were in either of those positions, I would be distinctly annoyed at the programme-makers. It will affect how other people treat the boys for at least another decade, perhaps even for the rest of their lives. Sexuality is a very private matter, and if it is evident to everyone at 9 then how come there are so many people who find out at 12 or 13 that it is not what they expected?
Luckily there aren't any home videos of me for people to pore over in the future (as I was always on the other side of the lens). Unless, of course, my camera style is in some way "gay". God forbid.
Sorry: rant mode off now.
David
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Actually, the thing that most annoys me is the ethnocentric and historically specific nature of what is assumed to be gender-appropriate activity!
Personal adornment - eg painting fingernails, makeup, whatever? In modern western society, stereotypically restricted to women (and rebellious youths!), But body adornment in small-scale societies is often a male concern - women are too busy doing the actual subsistence gathering or agriculture, men are expected to hang around looking pretty, painting their bodies, and going for an occasional hunt ... OK, that's as much of a stereotype as the reverse, but does show just how pointless the whole idea of gender-specific activity is.
Similar examples are innumerable ... almost everything that "we" (modern western society) think of as being a "male" characteristic or activity has at some time or place been seen as a "female" one. The course on this ("Sex/Gender systems") that I did when reading Anthropology at Uni was probably one of the most liberating experiences in my entire life.
Personally, I'm very happy being male. Yup, I've got lots of characteristics and skills that our society treats as feminine - I cry fairly easily, bake a mean cake, am somewhat shy, sensitive and "bookish", have a good colour sense, am an excellent cook, can knit .... I also have characteristics and skills that are stereotypically male - I think in a rather linear fashion, was a workaholic, can swap out a car engine or gearbox, do houshold plumbing, dislike other people's babies ...
And I'm sure that a lot of us know, or have met, incredibly camp men who are 100% straight.
All of which leads me to believe that there is little or no correalation between one's sexual orientation and one's conformity with the gender stereoptypes of Western society.
Somehow, all this reminds me of a Fabulous Furry Phreak Brothers cartoon from my youth ... an onlooker makes the remark about one of the long-haired phreaks that "Ha ha, I can't tell if that's a boy or a girl" and is met with the reply "Why don't you suck my dick and find out?".
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Bravo NW!! I have never thougth of myself as being effiminate. Like you I love to cook (that or starve), I like color (as witnessed by my t shirts), I like a clean house. Then again I love to skateboard, In line skatting, Ice skatting and backyard football and baseball. I watched that video and something didnt strike me as right. I wonder if some of that wasnt staged for the camera.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Brian,
>I wonder if some of that wasnt staged for the camera.
Everything in television is staged for the camera. The mother will have been told in advance, "Make sure you put the pink bed linen on, and make sure your little boy paints his nails and gets out his doll collection." Then they shoot masses of footage, ask plenty of leading questions, and only pick out the little bits that support their points. I'm sure that, being twins, most of the time the boys are doing just the same things. But that would not support their argument, so they don't show it. Television isn't about telling the truth, it's about telling a story. Who cares if the story doesn't represent reality? If it looks like it does, that's good enough.
>I have never thougth of myself as being effiminate.
If anyone ever uses the justification that they don't do something because it's not masculine, really they are saying, "I can't be bothered to do it," or, worse, are being sexist or chauvinistic. Being able to cook, having a fashion sense, keeping the house tidy, looking presentable etc. are all vital skills these days. I aspire to having them, but somehow they all seem to elude me...
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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It makes a difference because you learn about yourself. Not everything we learn is pleasant nor convenient, but we function better as we learn
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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I tend to think that the "plunge" is more as I have described it than a phyiscal experience
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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Most of us are "gender neutral" in our gender behaviour. By this I mean that we behave, think, and act as any person of that gender would act. The sole difference is the gender we desire to mate with.
So I am masculine, good at some sports, bad at others, am a decent mechanic, lousy at woodwork, a great cook, lousy at housework, and hate shopping. I am testosterone powered aggressive, and unfeminine.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy,
Well... the plunge as you have described it doesn't really apply to me, either. I've never masturbated about anyone, I've never become obsessed with any one person (those people I have mentioned to you to whom I have been attracted notwithstanding), I have never been in love, and I don't even especially desire male nakedness or sex. In fact, the only thing that does make me gay is the yearning that Marc has discounted, and perhaps the fact that I have acknowledged myself as being gay. So, regardless of how I read your and Marc's definitions, I may well not qualify for either.
I think all one can conclude is that being gay means different things for different people. In the absence of a personal decision (which would obviously take precedence), I would be inclined to equate sexuality with sexual attraction, as it's the simplest way of looking at it, and it doesn't lead to exclusive definitions.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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Deeej wrote:
> I think all one can conclude is that being gay means different things for different people. In the absence of a personal decision (which would obviously take precedence), I would be inclined to equate sexuality with sexual attraction, as it's the simplest way of looking at it, and it doesn't lead to exclusive definitions.
Precisely where I was going with this.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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>Deeej wrote:
>> I think all one can conclude is that being gay means different things for different people. In the absence of a personal decision (which would obviously take precedence), I would be inclined to equate sexuality with sexual attraction, as it's the simplest way of looking at it, and it doesn't lead to exclusive definitions.
Precisely where I was going with this.
Jolly good.
The only thing I think I haven't mentioned explicitly is that according to those criteria, a person could be gay or bisexual without knowing he was gay -- only that he was attracted to a person of the same sex. This would require absolutely no plunge, mental or physical, as sexual attraction is instinctive. It would then be a conscious choice to label himself as something else, if he would rather (for personal or religious reasons). So in that case a plunge, if it existed, would go the other way.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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That was me. 13-48 year old me. Gay and unaware
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Well then, both of us are in absolute agreement.
David
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Deeej wrote> "Being able to cook, having a fashion sense, keeping the house tidy, looking presentable etc. are all vital skills these days. I aspire to having them, but somehow they all seem to elude me..."
Lol Deeej! you're funny! I know it maybe true but, guy, you have a lot of great talents & skills as it is..! You've just gotta find a partner that can do all the things you can't or won't!
Oh, by the way..you're not alone.. 
Teddy
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Overall, it's a positive. Even the 60 minutes thingy was a positive. But there are negative elements to it.
I played with lego as a kid, I love hiking and being outdoors, I enjoy sport, though I have never been massively into it. I am a total messy slob. I also just happen to be gay. No-one guesses I'm gay, but a lot of people aren't radically surprised when I tell them, either. Gay people are generally less afraid of showing their feminine/ masculine side compared to straight people but that doesn't make it any less present in straights.
If being gay is genetic, though, what are we going to have next? Genetically modified children? I guess at least that would put Christian Conservatives in a pickle, though. Do they genetically modify children so they don't have the "gay gene", either way it's a sin isn't it?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well,
There are those that talk the talk......
And there are those that walk the walk......
To go to a message board does not make a person gay.
To go there and say one is gay because he/she is poating there does not make a person gay.
Reading gay porn stories does not make a person gay.
Being gay is being gay.... And there is no almost gay....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Oh, thanks for clearing that up.
So neither Timmy nor I are gay? We just think we are?
Timmy's actually straight and I'm actually asexual?
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It took long enough.....
But thats just about the gyst of it....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It's like this.....
A theory is only a theory until proven through method.
Until a theory is proven then there exists the possibility that the theory is wrongly postulated.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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There are a lot of people, of any sexuality, who remain celibate until they are prepared to commit to a long-term monogamous relationship. Branding them all asexual, rather than straight or gay, entirely by their actions rather than their thoughts completely fails to take into account that the vast majority of sexuality is mental.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Thus theoretical.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Which theory are we talking about here? The theory that I'm gay?
Even if it turns out that I'm much happier with a girlfriend than a boyfriend, it doesn't prevent me from being at the very least bisexual. You don't have to respond to sexual impulses for them to exist, you know. In your case, it sounds you responded to them as they appeared, so perhaps you equate gay only with gay behaviour. On the other hand, it took me several years to work up the courage even to admit them. I don't believe that what I went through was anything different from what any other gay person (who may have taken the "plunge" and qualify as gay as far as you're concerned) would have done -- apart from the fact that most people did not know I was gay.
My main argument, however, is that people should be allowed to label themselves however they want, provided it doesn't affect other people in an adverse way. So a man can say he is straight if he wants to, even if he has sex with men, or has a boyfriend. And a married man can call himself gay if he would prefer -- especially if he has the feelings to back it up. It's not a dissimilar argument from the one that goes "Who cares why people are gay? Just let them be," of which I know you are highly in favour.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I have no problem with gay people..... straight people as well for that matter......
I do have a problem with those of both ilk that proclaim to be one or the other as a matter os fashion.....
They do little other than muddy the waters.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I don't think that one's degree of sexual activity has anything to do with whether one is gay. I haven't had sex (with another person) for nearly 20 years. I don't feel any more - or any less - gay than I did in my mid-teens, when I had a reasonably large number of male sexual partners, and the occasional female one. For me, at least, it definitely isn't physical (I can "perform" adequately with either sex, and enjoy it), but is about who I fall in love with.
In short, I don't think being gay is about who you sleep with, but about who you want to wake up next to.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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I don't think saying you're gay is exactly fashionable. When it's done for pure motives, I have no problem. A non-pure motive would be saying you're gay just for the attention, or for political reasons. Saying you're straight is not fashionable either -- it just makes you stand out less, which is sometimes necessary when you're among people you can't trust.
The only point at which I think things get muddy is when those people who choose a straight lifestyle over a gay one start behaving in a homophobic or anti-gay way. It is the height of hypocrisy to bash something they know is not something you can control, except on a purely physical level (and one which may well bring a deep sense of unhappiness for many people).
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I am not at all talking about "being gay"......
I am talking about crossing the line from "I think I might be gay" to "Yup I am definately gay"......
It is one act.....
Like a bell.....
Until one rings it it is silent..... Yes it has the potential to make a sound but until one takes action it can not make a sound....
Once rung it can be heard..... Once rung it can not be unrung.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well, once again experience takes the floor......
Go out to a gay bar......
Try and pick out the wannabees......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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So a wannabe may turn out not to be gay? That's odd... Why would they go to a gay bar, then? (And I don't mean as a straight "sightseer".)
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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They go because in some circles it is cool to be gay.....
but you would have to go to experience it first hand.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Interesting.
As you say, I have not experienced it first hand. Well, unless you count school, where certain pretty boys were fancied by all.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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I know we are discussing fine points of symantics here, but I always iknew what I wanted to do, with whom I wanted to do it, how I wanted to do it and even what it would feel like physically, intellectually and emotionally.
For me that in itself was enough to say, finally, "Yes, I am a gay man". I needed no confirmation.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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oops. I have just been writing to a guy frm Symantec! "Semantics". Arrrghhhhh
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Agreed,
You climbed the stairs and even held on to the bell cord.....
But the bell still remains unrung.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I would call this site a pretty loud ring, considering the number of people who have heard it...
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No....
Not by any stretch....
It is just a website and a message board....
Yes, it is gay oriented in content....
But I do not see it as anyway being able to confirm (or deny) as the case may be anyones gayness or straightness....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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The thing is, one has no need to justify it. I just know I am gay. Done deal.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well that is not realy true....
You try to justify it every day....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Sooooooo, all this time I may have been wrong and Im not gay? Even tho My fantasies and dreams are about other boys? that a female does absolutely nothing for me and as a mater of fact I dont much care for females. I might wake up one morning say when Im 18 and have to email Deeej and tell him im sorry but I just discovered Im stra8t. OMG ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
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Actually no. I may try to rationalise it with my lifestyle, but I have no need to prove it
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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jleo71
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Getting started |
Location: USA
Registered: July 2006
Messages: 22
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I would say physical and emotional attraction as well. As a child I was emotionally and physically attracted to men and boys even before there was any sense of sexuality. I remember in first grade, seeing a boy that I thought was strikingly attractive and wanting to get to know him. I did, we became fast friends, our families grew closer over the years and he became my first lover.
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stereotypical male? 
