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Does this mean that an 18 year-old boy with a 15 year-old girlfriend is necessarily investigated also, as there is a high probability that they will have had sex at some point?
Or are there double standards, as usual?
It interests me that it is okay for such relationships to be portrayed in mainstream fiction (QaF) without too much complaint. There is evidently a point at which even the sheep-like tabloid reader realises you can go too far. If the hysteria was absolute then Queer as Folk would be condemned absolutely for the "dangerous ideas" it might sow, regardless of fictional status.
David
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Nigel said,
>Magic does not exist. So how can it be the work of the devil?
The devil does not exist either. Can something that does not exist be the work of something else that does not exist? Maybe.
David
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I was being cynical. I am perfectly aware of the multiple meanings of the word "interest".
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well video does make a difference now-a-days I guess.... but in the 60's and 70's film was the media of choice....
There are now as there was then cheap houses producing garbage and technicaly archaic work but the house we worked for put nothing but top of the line material out.
Thats why we made what we did and got the attention we did.....
Granted Europe generaly appreciated us than the US.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc said,
>Well video does make a difference now-a-days I guess.... but in the 60's and 70's film was the media of choice....
Quite apart from anything else, these days there are only a very limited number of places that develop and grade film. I'd really have no idea whether Technicolor, Deluxe et al would want to take on business of that nature. It depends how big the supporting infrastructure for these companies is and whether the expense is justified.
High definition video is certainly the way to go nowadays if you're dealing in multiple cameras and a very swift turnaround. There is still just as great a divide as there always was between doing anything "properly" and running around with a cheap video camera.
David
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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These are just a few comments or clarifications arising from the responses to the post I made last night.
I agree absolutely with all that Timmy said, but I wasn't restricting myself to the 'Boy Love' type of relationship. Though the balance of internet fiction might suggest otherwise, 'relationships' of any endurance are the exception rather than the rule where underage participants are involved. I think that my argument is equally valid in relation to fairly casual sexual involvement, as long as it is not in any way coercive.
I take NW's point. He does, however, talk of 'emerging essentially unscathed' from the relationship he mentions; the choice of words is - even if subconsciously - suggestive of at least some element of coercion. I don't pretend that it would be easy to separate coercive and non-coercive relationships in the middle ground; certainly it cannot be resolved on the word of the child alone. No doubt it is possible for a wholly non-coercive relationship to present problems later in life, but I'd expect this to arise only in a small minority of cases. Unless there is evidence to contradict that expectation, I would repeat what is almost becoming a mantra of mine - the greatest morality (or in this case, justice) lies in seeking the greatest good of the greatest number.
I agree also with Black Prince. Existing UK law with regard to sexual offences is unsatisfactory because much of it is the product of emotional over-reaction, fired up by our irresponsible tabloid press. Even if we accept the rule of law, we have the right - indeed, the duty - to protest about bad law. The difficulty in this particular sphere is that anyone protesting in public would immediately be branded a paedophile by the faction responsible for the original emotional over-reaction. I agree that the legal view of a relationship between two teenagers of 15 and 11 months and 16 and 1 month is a complete nonsense. I accept that a prosecution would be highly unlikely, as being contrary to the public interest - it would draw attention to the ridiculousness of the legislation, and that would never do! Nevertheless, good law would not allow the possibility to arise.
As Saben says, the legal situation in Victoria is better than the flat-rate age of consent in the UK, but it still isn't ideal. The distinction between coercive and non-coercive sexual activity is clearly relevant in judging the gravity of an offence. The concepts of 'statutory rape' and 'strict liability' reflect a very dangerous trend, in which governments, with an eye to 'public opinion' as loudly voiced by the tabloid press, are progressively removing the discretion of the judiciary. I don't pretend that judges are infallible - there's ample proof to the contrary, over the years! - but they HAVE heard all the circumstances of the case. When - as has happened several times - they are prepared to state openly that the sentence they are passing appears inappropriate, but is outside their jurisdiction, there is something very wrong with the system.
Deeej, in his post headed 'A Question', makes a perfectly valid point when he suggests that a logical effect of the current legislation is to pretty much compel the legally-designated victim to feel abused - and to hell with the psychological consequences he or she may suffer as a result.
And finally - Queer as Folk. Yes, I'd say that it was reasonably realistic, though the Canal Street scene in Manchester is both notorious and exceptional. Newcastle, for example, has a well-defined, understood and even local-authority supported 'Pink Triangle', just South-West of the City Centre, with plenty of gay bars and clubs, but the whole set-up is much more low-key than Canal Street. As regards Nathan and Stuart, the one thing that didn't ring true with me was the character of Nathan's father. If he was prepared to ram the back of Stuart's car, why wasn't he going to the police? Nathan may have been close to 16, but the age gap between him and Stuart was substantial.
Thanks to all who responded. I'm not suggesting that the law should be disregarded, and I'm certainly not defending paedophile predators. But I do feel very strongly that present UK legislation is deeply flawed, and can cause enormous stress and suffering to the 'innocent' party. Good, sensible law should protect citizens of all ages without the need to rely upon the indulgence of a particular police officer or the discretion of the Criminal Prosecution Service.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie wrote:
> I take NW's point. He does, however, talk of 'emerging essentially unscathed' from the relationship he mentions; the choice of words is - even if subconsciously - suggestive of at least some element of coercion. I don't pretend that it would be easy to separate coercive and non-coercive relationships in the middle ground; certainly it cannot be resolved on the word of the child alone.
I absolutely accept that: I am not, and probably will never be, sufficiently at ease with my own experiences (which at this point in time I interpret as having been essentially "groomed", to a point where I fell very much in love with someone whose interest was predominantly sexual not romantic) to be able to think especially clearly or dispassionately about this subject. I'm sure that you're spot-on in pointing out that my choice of words was subconsciously suggestive of some element of coercion.
And, actually, I'm happy about that. Several people - including my last shrink - have assured me that I do not have the personality to go down the route of "abused becomes abuser". However, I think the part of me that regards mixed-age, and especially intergenerational, relationships as being inherently coercive (given the way our society is structured) is in some ways my final guarantee to myself that I will not do unto others as I feel I have been done unto.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... it's now almost three in the morning in the UK!
I don't want to seem simplistic, but I have always harboured suspicions about 'the abused is likely to become an abuser' and similar doctrines. There may be times when this genuinely happens, but in many cases I think it may be due to inadequate psychological counselling of the abused victim.
Would it be too imaginitive to suggest that your comment that 'the part of me that regards mixed-age, and especially intergenerational, relationships as being inherently coercive' is to a significant degree a reflection of your own experiences in the knowledge - be it subconscious or, as now, conscious - that you were yourself coerced? If my imagination isn't totally out of control, I would go so far as to suggest that your reaction demonstrates a degree of over-compensation, which is wholly understandable and - I would guess - therapeutically beneficial. Using short words, you suffered abuse, coped with it very well for 20 or 30 years, had a reaction many years later (which may have reflected the conscious realisation that you really HAD been 'abused') and have ultimately come to terms with your past in a way which makes you a better and stronger person? Or am I just a hopeless romantic?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It is as likely to be followed up. It is less likely to be reported. That is the double standard of human nature in groups. Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people in large groups.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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This has worried me, too. I have a sample of one, and I was not abused. But let me put my sample forward.
As a child I was smacked. It was more than just a slap, it was unpleasant, too hard and too long. It was horrible enough for my adrenaline at 12 years old to let me flatten my father when he had another go. As a father I smacked my son. But it was ineffective to the point that he said to me "You can hurt me if you like, but it won't stop me doing things." I realised it was a stupid sanction, and changed.
As a child in school I was bullied. I actually sought out being bullied because the bullies were "the best boys to be with" (Except Martin Busk - nasty little shit who was a really nasty bully and whose attitide was supported by the teachers.) I also bullied those weaker than me. It took me a long time to learn that was bad. That happened when a worm turned and we beat the crap out of each other. Physicaly we both lost. Emotionally he won. I stopped.
Thsi does not have any statistical validity, but it does show, a little, that behaviour that is seen to be acceptable in others when directed at a child does "permit" that child to think that the mode of behaviour is normal. It does not predispose the child to behaving in that way, but it does seem to give tacit permission.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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David, while I realise the difficulty of proving a negative, could you please give chapter and verse for your statement that the devil does not exist?
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Please give chapter and verse for your statement that magic does not exist.
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from my own experiences both on canal street, and in my local gay scene in Stoke-on-Trent i'd say the QaFv scenario is probably pretty common. The big clubs ID people, smaller bars, or local bars don't. The local ones in particular can cause problems legally, since if they know a person is underage, but also know he won't cause problems, they are equally as likely to let him in, but keep an eye on him (i.e. let him have his fun, but not let him get mixed up with the dirty old men that also frequent the place) as they are to refuse him entry. It depends on who the duty head of security and manager is. Other places, that simply don't ID, or only ID on suspicion of underage are an easy to place find underage drinkers, many of whom are also under the age of consent too...
and in summer, in places like Canal Street, its not at all impossible for mixed aged groups to send older members inside to the bar whilst the rest sit outside.
Stoke doesn't exactly have a vibrant or booming gay scene, so if you're a regular in its "Premier Gay Club" (and only gay club!) you'll see some other regulars who you'd really have to wonder about their age...
as to prosecution... what i outlined above about sentencing and procedure is of course dependent on the people involved being either caught, or reported...
Having "pulled" someone underage at a club, the chances of you being caught are slim unless your stupid enough to start the sex part of your night in public, get caught for that... and it all comes to pieces...
given that the "child" in these instances isn't just fulling consenting to the sexual contact, but actively seeking, the chances of him reporting his "abuse" are nil. Should the event ever come to legal light, if oyu did pull the guy in a club, you could always go for the reasonable knowledge defence... you reasonable expected everyone in the club to be 18 plus.
As to CPS discretion...
It exists for a purpose... the Law is worded to catch everyone who could commit an offence, the discretion exists to allow those who aren't really criminally culpable from actually falling victim to it (i.e. my favourite example of the 15 and 16yr old couple...)
Factors affecting this though would be the opinions of the CPS and Police officers who handle the case, the wishes of the victims parents, and stuff like that...
In a way, these laws are similar to recent terror laws, where technically, a stand-up comedian making jokes has committed the same offence as extremist muslim preachers, the difference being the CPS have the discretion... the law is worded broadly to catch all possible actions, and its left to the prosecuting authorities to decide to go ahead or not.
for better or worse
Odi et amo: quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
Nescio, set fieri sentio et excrucior
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think you will find it in the Book of Daniels, Chapter 3, verse 4 et seq
"And the crowd said unto him, bring forth the box wherein the body of Debbie McGee was placed."
"And he said 'Nay, for she is gone from that box, and verily is not behind the curtain either, for I have replaced her with mirrors and an elephant'"
"And the crowd were displeased and pelted him with rotten vegetables, declaring "Begone, charlatan, for thy magic does not exist!'"
"And he left that place vowing never to return, for his magic did not exist, for it was all an illusion."
[Updated on: Thu, 28 September 2006 11:14]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Cossie, your words have triggered a fairly long and hard think! As a result of which, I have slightly changed, or perhaps clarified, my position on this.
I could never enter into an adult/teen (sexual) relationship, because I would never feel confident within myself that the relationship was without any element of coercion or abuse. This has close parallels with my non-violence, where I could never be sure that violence was not an outlet for my own agression, rather than an appropriate response to the situation, and for much the same reasons (ie of having been on the recieving end of inappropriate behaviour).
However, I think I can now accept that there may be situations where others are able to have adult/teen relationships that those concerned have a reasonable assurance would be non-damaging. So, as with violence, it may be something that could be OK for others to do in some circumstances, but could never be moral for me to do.
As for the darkness ... too many years of working in theatre (getting home at midnight or after then taking a couple of hours to unwind after work) has set my body-clock - I'm rarely asleep much before 0300h
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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I'm not The Pedant, so I can make wild statements if I like.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Nice one, Timmy!
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think it's hard for us to visualise a relationship other than our own ideal. I find it very difficult to picture me at anything other that 13-18 in a relationship with a boy 9 months older than me who looked a little younger always. I can never conceive of wanting someone even a couple of years older than myself, and I find it difficult to rationalise people who do with my own image of myself.
I think I see where you are coming from, but I suppose from the other end. If it's any consolation, from all you've said, any teen who is attracted to you would not find you wanting in the love, affection, or the abiloty to be a gentle lover. It will just be you who holds back.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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An atheist has a belief that God, the devil and assorted friends do not exist.
Technically, the furthest a scientific, pedantic atheist can go is to say that there is no evidence that the devil exists. And that there is no evidence that magic (except conjuring tricks) exists either. But in the realm of science the onus is on those who claim such things exist to prove they do. If science entertained every outlandish claim without evidence -- "You can manufacture free energy out of thin air", "There is a malicious entity known as the devil, possibly with horns, a goatee and a barbed tail", "The universe is embedded in a plum pudding" -- no-one would ever be able to get any proper work done. The way it works is to assume they are wrong or irrelevant unless there is compelling evidence to show otherwise.
In other words, there is no scientific chapter and verse but it is not required. There is no chapter and verse to show that the universe is not part of a celestial Christmas banquet either, but, for the same reason, I can say with near certainty it is not.
David
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David
You have just said in 8 lines what I said in 8 words.
> I realise the difficulty of proving a negative…<
I am now going to stand in the corner with my face to the wall, terribly ashamed of myself, after what the devil in me made me do.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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I suspected a wind-up, but I simply could not resist...
David
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... I think I can understand how you arrive at your conclusion, and in the light of what you have told us about your life that conclusion seems eminently reasonable.
I've just re-read my previous posts, and of course this thread has wandered off in various directions over the last two or three days. Can I please therefore hijack this otherwise brief post to make it absolutely clear that I neither encourage nor condone non-coercive sexual activity with minors. I think that it is right that such activity should in principle be illegal, and I cannot see how children could be adequately protected from serious abuse if the prohibition were other than absolute. My case is limited to the arguments that -
- emotion should play no part in law-making;
- the law should distinguish between coercive and non-coercive abuse because it seems patently obvious that the latter is much less damaging to the victim than the former;
- age of consent legislation should be amended to de-criminalise consensual sexual activity between minors, or between adults and minors, where the ages of those involved are relatively close together, and
- the interests of the victim should always be paramount, even if there is some incidental benefit to the abuser - as, for example, in protecting the absolute anonymity of the victim.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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This site has now been suspended.
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I know.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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