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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I agree with you that total honesty in these things is vital. If honesty is used and full disclosure made, and he is certifed as fit for duty then he is fit for duty.
I recommend most strongly that full disclosure is made. One;s own safety depends on it, let alone other people's
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You are evading an issue here.....
I have a right to make intentional omissions known..... A duty in fact...
But I forget..... what I consider important... well just isn't....
Whatever
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Wait. Are we back to "I will report this to the FAA"? Because, if so, I am back to retract or leave
be very clear, I will not have any poster here abused y any other.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I dont know where to get the link to the individual post.....
up above.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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If you insist on reading something other than what I say then there is nothing I could possible say that could convince you otherwise.....
I just give up.....
I can not get a point across here.....
I never could.....
What is the point of trying.....
NONE
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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You open the individual post in a new window
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I'm not trying to be difficult, but please could you copy and paste the words? I read it that Jason was unaware of the difficulty of passing a medical, but not that he was planning on evading or omitting any important information.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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This is not a discussion. Not in the least bit. This is a one way message, from me, owner and moderator of thsi site, to you, poster on this board. I am telling you that I see this as being back to threatening to report thsi to the FAA.
I am telling you that this behaviour is unacceptable
I am telling you clearly that I am implaccably opposed to this behaviour being exhibited here.
Right now I care not one jot whether you stay or go. I simply care that you do either one well. Stay and behave. If you cannot or will not behave, go.
Your choice, not mine.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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is entire post as it appears above.....
even if i had one the odds of any one noting that i had is very low. see how they only last a few sec's and it look like i am out of it. but thanks marc I let you know what flight i fly, or maybe i wont.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Well, everything there is true. No-one probably would notice if he had one. And he might not tell you, Marc, but I trust Jay to tell his medical examiner well in advance.
That's how I read it, anyway.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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fine....................
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I am not allowed to speak further on the subject.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc, with rights come responsibilities. Many here have tried - as best they, maybe to little effect - to be supportive and 'here' for you when needed. I would suggest that you in turn have a responsibility to other posters here which in this instance constitutes a duty that outweighs the "right" you see to report things which appear to you to be untoward.
Please think very carefully about this: it is something from which there may be no going back.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I am not allowed to speak further on this subject.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Are you staying and behaving? Or going? Because it was no longer clear. You said you wouold stay and I accepted that, then you reverted to the unacceptable behaviour.
Frankly I think an apology to us all is necessary either way. In fact I am making any final choice to stay conditional upon it.
However, this is a formal, final warning about your behaviour. If you stay you will behave according to the standards set here, or I will decide that you leave.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What do you want from me.......
total prostration?
fine..... I beg your forgivness.... on bended knee....
Now are you going to continue needeling me?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I want a simple, open hearted, generous spirited apology to the people here who lurk and post alike.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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well thaty is as good as it getsd
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Think it over, overnight. Because if that is as good as it gets then that is not good enough.
Learn and use good manners here, or leave.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Then why don't you just tell me what you want me to say.....
Whatever I come up with is not going to be good enough.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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A script? No. Say what you would hope to hear from someone else.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What I hope to hear I never do....
All I have left I already gave.....
If you want, need, demand more.... I just do not have it anymore.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Then sleep on it. This has not been a hapyy experience. Sleep and come to it in the morning. And deal with it then.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I've just logged on, so I've read all the exchanges in sequence; maybe that gives me the chance to see what happened in a clearer perspective.
The root of the problem seems fairly obvious.
You latched on to this post by Jay:
"Even if I had one, the odds of anyone noticing that I'd had it are very low. You see, they only last a few seconds and it looks like I am out of it." {With apologies to Jay, I've tidied up the grammar to make the meaning clearer.)
You jumped to the conclusion that Jay was implying that the FAA would never find out about his condition; everything else followed from that. But that is NOT what Jay meant - he was merely paraphrasing the DESCRIPTION of an absence seizure, as set out in the medical links he had already provided, no doubt to emphasise that even when he had one the seizures were so brief that they were hardly noticable. Unless the FAA is incredibly incompetent - which I very much doubt - Jay couldn't possibly keep the details of his condition secret. No responsible institution would arrive at a decision based on a single physical examination and interview, without reviewing the candidate's full recorded medical history.
After that initial misunderstanding, things escalated. Your remarks about dyslexia were an example; dyslexics are neither illiterate nor stupid, they simply have problems with word-sequencing. The are as capable of reading instruments as anyone else, and their ability to understand and react in a rehearsed situation is not diminished by the condition.
Whichever way you look at it, you do owe Jay a sincere apology - but it's an apology for a misunderstanding and for losing a sense of proportion, not an apology for being heinously wrong in principle. I agree with Timmy's concerns, and I wish you hadn't jumped in with both feet, but I don't think your worries were wholly unreasonable. What WAS unreasonable was leaping to a conclusion and pursuing it without looking more deeply into the facts.
Please think carefully before you make any decision - even though you sometimes infuriate me, you make a valuable contribution here and - let's face it - without you the board would be a much less lively place!
Oh, and by the way, your post in a separate thread doesn't count, because you hadn't slept on it!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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It is already out of hand - although perhaps it could be retrieved.
I don't think you've identified the real issue here, cossie. For me, it is quite clear -
No-one on this place of safety should in any way "out" anyone about *any* issue, unless there is a demonstrably clear and immediate intended threat to the safety of others. Not a possible threat based on an intended career years into the future. Any such "outing", or the threat of it, is a betrayal of trust.
I have on several occasions in the past urged Marc to remain a member of this board when he has had problems in his relationships with other posters. I'm afraid that I cannot do so this time. It is, of course, entirely timmy's decision, but I fully support the conditions he has laid down, and it must be up to Marc to decide whether these conditions are acceptable to him.
While in general I have been completely transparent here about linking my real-world life to my online existence, I have now removed from my profile the link to my homepage and changed the contact e-mail to an ISP--monitored one - this is only temporary until the current situation is resolved, I hope. I do this reluctantly - it is the only gay site that I have ever felt it necessary to do this on.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... and the last thing I want to do is make the situation worse. Yes, I agree with what you say about 'outing' in any sphere - though I might settle for 'clear danger'. But Marc was being Marc. Most of you know that I've had serious battles with Marc in the past, but fighting with someone does provide insights into their character. Marc has issues, which is not altogether surprising in view of his past history. One of those problems is a tendency to leap in with sabre flashing, before making absolutely sure that the relevant maiden is actually in distress. Here, he got the wrong end of the stick, and he said things which he certainly should not have said - but he didn't DO anything, and in all honesty I don't think he WOULD do anything without giving the issue deeper thought - and then he'd have realised that the FAA wasn't quite that stupid.
He owes Jay a sincere apology. He owes the rest of us an apology, too, which - whilst being no less sincere - need not be quite so comprehensive. And he needs to acknowledge the principle that threats are almost always the worst possible option. But we all KNOW Marc, and judgement should be coloured accordingly. Are any of us as perfect as we'd like to think? The issue is unfortunate, but if we allow it to be terminal, we will ALL be losers.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Why would you tell them some thing they are going to know from my medical file that i need to bring.
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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By the way never want to fly passenger flights thos get hijacked way to much for me. was thinking cargo. Second thing is its a shame you feel ok flying at all. cuz you have no idea if that pilots wife/lover had just broke it off with them and the feel like dieing and takeing everyone with them.
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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"We" may all know Marc. This board is for those who lurk and read, not just those who post. So I fear not all of us do. And knowing someone does not excuse bad, irresponsible, and plain unacceptable behaviour.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hi Jay,
Just making a couple of points -- points irrelevant to Marc, but you might want to think about them anyway!
There's a huge difference between safety in aircraft in the first world and the third world. In the first world, passenger aircraft are practically never hijacked. 2001 was an exceptional case. I know that the probability is higher than it used to be, but there haven't been any hijackings since 2001; and the probability of any particular aircraft being hijacked is much lower than that of technical or logistical failure (though those, of course, do not necessarily end in disaster). Hence I'd urge you not to exclude passenger flights only on that basis: it is giving in to propaganda.
The psychological health of pilots is also carefully monitored, and if they are both depressed and of a psychopathic personality type likely to want to take everyone down with them it is very likely to be picked up well beforehand. Successful pilots are extremely responsible people. I do not know of any situation like this ever having happened in the first world.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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As one tidies up poor grammar muddy water can become clearer....
"Even if I had one, the odds of anyone noticing that I'd had it are very low. You see, they only last a few seconds and it looks like I am out of it." {With apologies to Jay, I've tidied up the grammar to make the meaning clearer.)
even if i had one the odds of any one noting that i had is very low. see how they only last a few sec's and it look like i am out of it. but thanks marc I let you know what flight i fly, or maybe i wont.
But.......
As we were talking about seizures, licensing and the physical examination involved with the obtaining of a pilot's license I read Jay's comment to say he left the noting of the existance of seizures to the medical examiners.
This to me read as an omission intending to side step an important issue, that being the presence of seizures. Your interpretation of Jay's statement does help clear the picture for me but all I had to read was Jay's comment as it stood.
In hindsight I see that I am wrong in my perception..... But that hindsight is owed solely to your clarification.....
Therefore,
Jay. If I read your comment wrongly I abjectly appologize for doing so and over reacting. However, your grammar needs serious work. I suggest you get a proof-reader.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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That deals with apologising to Jay. I will leave him to judge whether the embellishments about his grammar were necessary, but that will be between him and you. So you are half way there. How about apolgising to the rest of us? That also needs to be forthcoming, fullsome, unequivical and form the heart.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I am sorry
And now what.....
What more self emasculation will you demand?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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While I wish you would not always put a sting in the tail, I think I speak for all of us that we accept yout apology. You remain welcome here. As you know decent behaviour is a must from now on.
There has never been any intent at emasculation, simply restoration of the trust that all here feel they deserve
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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of course I accept Marc's apology. But I still feel deeply in need of reassurance. Reassurance that he will *not* circulate information disclosed here without the consent of the person who posted. While I'm of course aware that anyone *could* have access to this site, in many cases it is *highly* unlikely that they would.
A concrete example. I've made no secret of the fact that my father was physically abusive. I am at present very slowly and painfully re-building some kind of relationship with him, after nearly 20 years in which we didn't speak, and complicated by the fact that he now lives on the other side of the Atlantic. If *anyone* here were to decide that, because my father was abusive to a kid forty years ago, he presents a threat to the kids he is currently in contact with and report him to the authorities, it would serve no useful purpose other than to destroy any chance I might have of re-building the relationship: he's changed, and so have I . It is an entirely trivial matter to establish both my identity and his, of course.
I'm afraid that until Marc feels able to give such an assurance, I'll have to limits my postings here to non-personal stuff ... which is in some ways a bit against the grain.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well, I see it as emasculation....
As far as trust..... Am I not also entitled to that self same luxary?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I know I'm not always good at understanding other people's motivations for a comments myself, but I do hope that no-one regards anything I have ever said as a breach of trust. If anyone does, I apologise unreservedly.
In response to Marc's comment:
>As far as trust..... Am I not also entitled to that self same luxary?
Trust has to be earnt. Saying that you will report someone to the authorities is an obvious breach of the implied trust of a "place of safety", especially if the basis for your allegation is solely the misreading of a slightly ambiguous comment. (If something's ambiguous, it's much better to ask politely for clarification first.) If you don't believe it's a place of safety -- well, you don't have to post here. But that belief is no grounds for making it no longer a place of safety.
You did have trust from people here before. But implying that you will breach it is good grounds for losing it.
I think this matter would not be half as bad as it is (or was) if you had not failed to acknowledge that you could be misreading Jason's words. That you keep adding comments to the end of your posts to try and deflect blame from yourself onto other people is basically the same thing -- you are still trying to maintain the crisis was not your fault.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Think about it, please. Right up to the point where you said you would report Jay to the FAA you had it in spades. At that point you lost it all.
Now you have the challenge of rebuilding it.
Probably a good way to start would be to recognise that you understand this. I don't mean you have to tell us that you do. I don't need to see the answer. You just need to understand it, internalise it and act accordingly.
Trust is a two way street. No-one mistrusted you until that point. You may feel that they did, but they simply did not like your behaviour, certainly those who emailed you to say things about leaving, not did not trust you.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Time for clarity 
