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Speaking from high school age, kids are gonna grow up one way or the other. If they get told about homosexuality at home that information is gonna be colored by the parents religious belief system.
If they learn about in school they'll hear the views of the political and religious heads of the school system, be it public or parochial.
Either way, they're hosed unless the parents and/or the school are liberal enough to present homosexuality as a valid choice.
And the likeihood of THAT happening in The United Fundamentalist Christian Republic of America are.....???
[Updated on: Wed, 26 September 2007 15:56] |
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It's a choice???
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc,
You seem to be picking a fight over a minor ambiguity in language -- a meaning that is not indicated by the rest of the question, as far as I can see. 'Educated on the subject of being gay/lesbian' doesn't mean the same as 'teaching someone to be gay'. It simply means 'gaining knowledge on the subject of those who are gay' (which could cover anything from the most minor acknowledgement that gay people exist upwards).
You have a habit of coming up with one possible meaning and then instantly picking a fight using that meaning, to the exclusion of all others, even if others are more likely. I suppose jack could potentially mean what you thought he meant, but it is much more likely that he didn't, given that nothing else he has said suggests that.
'Being' -- the verb 'to be' -- is very generic and can mean many different things depending on context. If you are unsure what a comment means, ask. Don't start SHOUTING because you're the only person who is looking at it the way you are -- if you are the only person seeing it that way, the chances are that you are wrong, not everyone else!
David
[Updated on: Wed, 26 September 2007 16:15] |
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Marc said,
>BEING...... not knowing about....... BEING!!!
See my other post. I read 'being' as 'people who are'. Hence there is no difference, as far as I can tell, between
'knowing about people who are gay'
and
'being educated on the subject of people who are gay'
I don't expect the children to 'be' gay, and I have extreme difficulty reading it that way. I don't think anyone else here has read it that way either.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I see what you mean
I think he presents "chouce" as "A choice you make about your lifestyle", not "a choice about being homo or heterosexual"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well i think youre wrong.....
I am after all entitled to.....
And the entire concept of teaching children about being gay or lesbian is abhorant to me....
If it isnt to you.... or any others that read it as you did then i must admit that it is a bit unnerving....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I guess I must purchace the updated version of "How to interpret what people actually say into what others think they read"
I think it is on amazon for $293859834592834958.03 a copy
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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If by 'teaching children about being gay or lesbian' you mean 'teaching children that gay and lesbian people exist, and that they are ordinary people too', then I don't have any objection at all, no.
If you're reading anything more into it then that, then I dare say you are entitled to, but I don't see why you would.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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There is a further way of reading it. That is as a child of two male or two female "Carers" as we must now call them. And that simply requires the answer that one has the family one has, and that "We love you and each other very much", with gradually increasing information as the child is ready to receive it.
Again there is no norm.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I can summarise it for you:
i. ask the author for clarification
ii. the end.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You know, I think Marc's viewpoint is as correct as any other one with regard to this question. He has easily shown me that his viewpoint is valid, and the question does read very much the way he has interpreted it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think that's its ISBN, not its price
[Updated on: Wed, 26 September 2007 16:51]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Benji
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: August 2007
Messages: 297
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Informing children when they ask questions is not wrong, I must assume that we are talking about elementary kids? Sitting kids down this young and teaching them however would be wrong, let them enjoy their childhood. By the time they are in Junior High (7th-9th grades for over mates across the sea) They probably know more on the subject than we do!!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What you see as a minor ambiguity in language is a call to arms for the little boi lovers club....
I dont see that as minor......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Well, I took the fact that jack did not correct NW's original reading of it as confirmation that NW was correct. As I have said before, the word 'being' is ambiguous, but Occam's Razor would seem to indicate the simplest reading is *probably* the best one. I've never come across a proposal from anyone that children should be taught 'to be' gay, whereas the issue of what they should be taught about gay people comes up much more frequently.
But I bow to my last post, which should surely clear everything up: ask the author (jack).
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Can I summerize it for you?
Oh.... I did.....
and its never the end.....
The day you think so...... well it just becomes the begining for the next in line.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Deeej wrote:
> I've never come across a proposal from anyone that children should be taught 'to be' gay, whereas the issue of what they should be taught about gay people comes up much more frequently.
>
Until this thread.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Ohhhh, so that's why you've got a bee in your bonnet about it. It had not even occurred to me. I was thinking in terms of being taught about gay lifestyles for the future -- that it doesn't matter if you subsequently turn out to be gay in a few years, as that's okay. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't make an immediate connection between 'sex education' and 'paedophiles'.
We were taught about straight sex in biology lessons at the age of 11. This did not prompt anyone to go out and have sex, and certainly not with adults. It meant that when the subject did come up a few years later we were better equipped to deal with it. Children shouldn't be kept in the dark as they'll find out about it anyway, and better a reputable source than another.
David
[Updated on: Wed, 26 September 2007 17:10] |
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Or rather, your reading of this thread.
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Well I see your point but I believe in a way part of this is a choice.
Guys grow into puberty and beyond knowing they are increasingly attracted to other guys. That's not a choice that's the way we're born. That's what I'm going through right now. That attraction will never change in my opinion, it might grow or decrease depending on other things, but the basic samesexual orientation is gonna be there.
But I do think that acting on that attraction is a choice. In other words, a boy can be a samesexual but choose not to engage in samesexuality, and that choice is made depending on his religious beliefs, his feeling the need to conform to his peer groups, his parents level of control over him and other factors.
In my case I thought that I was drifting towards being samesexual for several years and fought against it because I didn't want to be that way, and I didn't want to be different. Early last year things happened between my best friend and I that caused me to not only know that I was predominently samesexual in attraction but I also chose to act on that attraction and engage in samesexuality.
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You can take a knife and magnifying glass and disect anything to death. I wish I had had someone when I was 12 to explain to me what I was feeling. My mom sure wasnt going to, hell If I had told her she would have killed me. I spent a lot of time in self hate, agony and even attempted suicide. Being gay was wrong and evil, how could this be happening to me? A teacher, a neighbor, an uncle, anybody had sat down and explained what was going on, I would have been spaired a lot of grief.
Like Curtis said, kids start learning on the playground at an early age. Some of those kids are going to be (being)gay and lesbian. If they are taught about being gay/lesbian and they are educated, then they will be spaired a lot of uncertainty and grief. The ones who are not gay/lesbian will be taught tolerance and acceptance and hopefully the world will be better for it.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Many of us have struggled with this. Those who are braver and wiser have allowed their lives to be what they were always going to be. Those of us who married, even for love, have struggled hard.
The thing is, I know I need to be in a man's arms. I have chosen a woman's. I have a good life, even a good marriage, but the choice was wrong. That harms us both.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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There is a line between "educating" and "grooming". At what point is this crossed?
It might be:- by telling a child repeatedly that sex with others of the same (or any) gender is fine at their age
- by making it all cozy and considering the idea that sex is a treat
- by simply educating too early
- etc
- etc... etc...
What we can't do is marginalise people who ask us to look at this more closely just because they are sensitive to the concept
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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I have said at what age should children be educated on the subject of being gay/lesbian.
I have not mentioned any thing about sexual education.
please once again dont read something into this that is not there.
Just so that it is crystal clear, young children need to know why his friend has two dads, or two mums, i would not expect any normal person to start telling a child how a gay would have sex for example.
life is to enjoy.
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Timmy said,
>What we can't do is marginalise people who ask us to look at this more closely just because they are sensitive to the concept
I have no objection to people asking such a thing. I object to rampant hyperbole, such as that sex education is necessarily a 'call to arms for the little boi lovers club'; the implication that there is only one way to read a sentence, which is contrary to the way everyone else has read it; also that a post is obviously a troll from the start, when this was actually one topic I was pretty certain was meant sincerely (I could be wrong on that, admittedly).
I think everyone in the conversation was careful to use such words as 'age-appropriate'. Making someone aware of the practices of others, even in detail, doesn't amount to encouraging them at an early age. Of course that is something to which attention needs to be paid, but pretending that relationships and sex don't exist will certainly not help, either. Poor information leads to any number of problems -- homophobia based on lack of knowledge and fear of difference, anxiety and confusion on the part of a young gay child, teenage pregnancy, and so on.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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jack wrote:
> Just so that it is crystal clear, young children need to know why his friend has two dads, or two mums
Why do they need to know this?
Does a pair of same gender carers mean the carers are gay?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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'A gay'? Gay is an adjective, not a noun.
Apart from that, quite, and thank you for the clarification, jack.
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jack said,
>I have said at what age should children be educated on the subject of being gay/lesbian.
>I have not mentioned any thing about sexual education.
In fact, maybe I am missing something, but doesn't this whole argument come down to the fact that 'being gay' is not the same thing as 'having gay sex', except, apparently, as far as Marc is concerned?
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I fear it now also qualifies as a noun. Sufficient usage has allowed the language to evolve
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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It objectifies a person to call them 'a gay' -- it makes what is most likely a minor aspect of their character their most important feature. I would seriously object to anyone calling me 'a gay', though I would not mind if someone called me 'a gay person'. 'Person' takes precedence far beyond 'gay'.
Besides, once Matt Lucas started calling his character 'the only gay in the village' (ugh) he became the quintessential 'gay', something to be laughed at and pitied -- for his character actually has no dimension beyond his gayness. The noun 'gay' recalls that for me.
David
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I'm with you on this, Deeej.
I strongly object to anyone calling me "a gay", using gay as a noun. Actually, I think my core identity is as an "out gay man" ... which is rather different from being an "out male gay"!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Dear Cossie, how wonderful to have you back!
Schools and parents should begin ‘drip feeding’ the normality of difference from the age of five or six;
The keyphrase "the normality of difference" is important to kids, their parents, teachers and others. In my classroom I do my best to 'drip feed' my early teenage pupils, hoping that the keyphrase will eventually seep into their brains, both to prevent discrimination and harrassment of other pupils, who may be gay, black, Arab, left-handed etc., and to convey the message to any gay or lesbian pupil that I know or do not know about, that I and most of my colleagues, are on their side.
Hugs..
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Just some (fairly) brief comments on the posts made in the last 24 hours.
Firstly to Tor – a very close friend of mine, even though we live in different countries – I was glad you took up the ‘drip feed’ concept mentioned in my previous post; it seemed to me to be pretty much at the heart of this issue. I had hoped it might provoke a greater response.
Secondly, to Jonny (Can I call you that if we haven’t been properly introduced?!!). You get a bonus – I’ll comment on two of the points you made! First, the one about young gays having a choice. You are undeniably right, many (though by no means all) do have a choice. The difficulty, as Timmy has said, is that homosexual orientation doesn’t go away just because you choose to ignore it and, if repressed, it can do serious psychological damage. It appears from the people I know and the studies I’ve read that the ’urge’ commonly reappears in middle age (say between 45 and 55); in many cases, a chance to talk on a forum such as this is enough to turn down the heat, but without support it can be an extremely destructive phenomenon. The second point relates to your comments about religious influence in the United States. You’re dead right again, but the questioner lives in the Great Britain (as do several of the posters who have responded) and Great Britain is, nowadays, a very secular place (apart from Wales, but then Wales was always a problem!).
Only a very small proportion of the population attend Church regularly, and religious influence (with the exception of John Sentamu (Episcopal Archbishop of York) and a handful of others) is at an all-time low. So, in the context in which the question was put, it isn’t really a significant factor.
Thirdly, to Timmy. You wondered why children needed to know why a friend had two dads (or two mums) instead of the usual mum and dad. With respect, etc, etc, I think you are falling into the common trap of believing in the romantic notion of the innocence of childhood. That was always a dangerous idea; ‘innocent’ implies that the alternative is ‘guilt’, and that’s just plain rubbish. Young kids are not in any sense guilty – even UK law recognises that – but neither are they little innocents. For ‘innocent’ and ‘guilty’ read ‘unaware’ and ‘aware’. The thing is, if a kid hasn’t been ‘drip fed’ the concept of the normality of difference, he (or she) is going to wonder about why there are two dads (etc), and there’s every chance that the kid with two dads will end up hurting. I believe with absolute conviction that kids should have an awareness of reality, though it shouldn’t be rammed down their throats.
And finally, Deeej and NW together. Sorry, guys, but there’s no question about it. Gay is a noun, (applicable to a homosexual male, at least) as Timmy thought. The Fifth Edition of the Shorter Oxford Dictionary (2003) categorically says so – and the Oxford English Dictionary is the ultimate arbiter of what’s what in British English – even the Courts regard it as pretty much infallible!
PS – if anyone feels like giving me a very expensive Christmas Present, the Sixth Edition of the Shorter OED has just been published. Oh, OK, I’ll accept a bottle of malt in lieu!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I have never, not once, suggested that a child who asks should not receive an answer. Nor have I ever said that we conceal things from them. Nor do I believe in the alleged innate innocence of childhood.
I believe, simply, that an age appropriate answer from a person who is appropriate to the child should be given.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I was being a bit dogmatic when I said, 'gay is an adjective, not a noun', though, originally, it was just an adjective (... and my own vocabulary tends to be a little antiquated -- for many years I only ever used 'gay' in the traditional sense).
However, just because a word exists, this does not mean it should not be deprecated. The same issue is at stake whenever people of many different minds are lumped together in one category. 'The disabled', 'gays', 'straights', 'whites', 'blacks', 'Christians', 'Muslims' (and this is to ignore the much ruder terms that have been used in the past) ... it implies that these people are fundamentally different from the alternative, yet of a broadly similar mind within the category; and that the noun describes the core identity of those people. Whereas, of course, an individual may come under many categories, many of which are completely irrelevant to daily life.
David
[Updated on: Thu, 27 September 2007 10:56] |
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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Hi all,
well i think that post got some reaction, i do mean all positive.
Its good to ring the bell it brings good refreshing response.
I will think of another post worthy of the same attention soon.
(were cave men of gay orientation oh i don't think i will go there.)
for those across the pond it is cold in the u.k.
bye for now. Jack8-)
life is to enjoy.
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>...it implies that these people are fundamentally different from the alternative... and that the noun describes the core identity of those people.
Forgive me for condensing your remarks, Deej, but I tried to leave the essence. And I think you are right on the mark. This concept of a word describing the core identity of someone has, I think, an even deeper impact on the young because they tend to think in terms of absolutes, not really comprehending that there are many shades of gray between black and white.
We've all heard this chant or even used it when we were young - "sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never harm me". Yet those of us growing up with the realization we were different from most of the other kids found that certain words could have a devastating effect upon us. I think that all of us, even those who are not the primary caregivers, have a responsibility to choose our words very carefully. Kids don't live in a vacuum, what we say to others gets filtered down to them.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You know, we are not here to have our bells rung. Our main purpose is to help people who need help, so, if your intention is to find a topic for sport, just, please, forget the idea.
I expect, one day, you will tell us what we can actually do for you, here.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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ChowanFarmBoy
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 93
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I read all this and you guys must not have much to occupy your time with if you talk about stuff to death like you do. I never saw anything like it. if you got time to spare we could use three more pair of hand on the farm. You get a house too, on the tenent farm.
I learned about sex by seeing the livestock on our farm breed with each other. My father explained all about males and females and how the males and females are different, just like boys and girls are different. Sometimes young male animals will try to mount another male, and dad told me they were learning the differences between males and females and that the urge to breed in the young males was so strong they got confused. The older males got them unconfused pretty fast.
Dad caught me and my cousin naked and humping against each other when we were thirteen. Dad told me that boys get confused too when they get to a certain age and our urge to mate gets confused and sometimes boys try to mate with boys and not to worry about that because that is natural and all boys go through this. We heard him and my uncle laughing about it that night. So my cousin and I thought if its natural and they laughed about it we should do it as much as we want. I guess dad thinks I outgrew it like he said I would.
My father doesn't know I graze on both sides of the fence but I don't think he would be too shocked about it. I just don't see any reason to tell my parents about my sex life. They don't ask and I don't tell.
My mom found a box of Trojans in my drawer last year and asked me if they were mine. So what was I supposed to say? No? So I got a major lecture about being too young for sex and all kinds of warnings about being careful and then she took the condoms which sort of defeated the warnings about being careful. So later that night dad came in and gave them back and told me to hide them better next time because mothers get kind of nervous finding things like condoms in boys bureaus. He just told me he knew I was sexually active and that I was being mature and responsible using protection.
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Hi Eldon. I like your comment about talking something to death; it happens often here. And I agree with you about sharing your sexual attitude with your parents; or others for that matter. I believe it is the business of myself and the one I'm with at the time, and no one else. Otherwise its just locker room talk, and I've never thought that was proper.
Your dad sounds like a cool guy; and your mother very typical. Lecture you about being carefull and then take away your means of doing so. LOL
Not too long ago it was believed that there was no homosexuality outside of man in the animal world. They have found differently recently. But the basic function of everything is to reproduce and perpetuate the species; that is why same sex individuals will always be a small minority.
JimB
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Re: young children. 
