|
|
|
|
back to top
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JimB
|
 |
Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
|
|
|
I don't understand you Marc. You make a big deal of taking pictures of naked kids and excuse murder. Paul is right, you can't push normal people to murder. What you said above is unacceptable to me.
JimB
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Paul Schroder wrote:
> So, in other words, the boy simply got what he had coming for acting camp? He may have instigated getting beat up... but murdered? Sorry, but you can't push normal people far enough to commit murder. And yes, hornets will sting, but they won't shoot you in the head.
Obviously, due to the facts, you are wrong.
A person can be pushed to commit murder.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Err........
Where did I say that what happened was excusible?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
At what point did the boy being camp have any affect on the other boy? Yes, he acted out and made it obvious that he was gay, but I cant believe that acting camp was motive for murder. the boy who pulled the trigger had been taught by someone that being gay was wrong and evil and killing him was ok. All the Falwells and Robertsons and all the other preachers who preach hate and intolerance are to blame for that boys murder. People who concern themselves with other peoples busniness are going to become twisted and bitter and in the end cause others damage that cant be corrected.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Roger wrote:
> At what point did the boy being camp have any affect on the other boy? Yes, he acted out and made it obvious that he was gay, but I cant believe that acting camp was motive for murder. the boy who pulled the trigger had been taught by someone that being gay was wrong and evil and killing him was ok. All the Falwells and Robertsons and all the other preachers who preach hate and intolerance are to blame for that boys murder. People who concern themselves with other peoples busniness are going to become twisted and bitter and in the end cause others damage that cant be corrected.
Could it be the gay assistant principal who might have been promoting an agenda?
It's hard to know what "triggered" such a response....
Certainly whatever it was.... was enough for the lid that pulled the trigger.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I posted this here shortly after the murder. I think it's time I posted it again.
http://www.rememberlarry.com/
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Marc, I'm trying to understand your position in this matter. Let me paraphrase here what I have understood you to be saying so that you can correct and clarify anything that I have misunderstood:
Larry King was the instigator of the murder i.e. he urged the other boy to kill him. His behaviour was outrageous to the extent that it was offensive in the extreme to Brandon and therefore, while it does not excuse the murder, Larry's behaviour does explain what Brandon did.
Please feel free to edit anything that I have misunderstood.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
That is approximatly correct...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
|
|
|
It's a rather bleak article about two rather strange boys.
"Larry was asking for it!" Except he was not. He was rather more flamboyant than is usual, and drew attention to himself, but he was just a kid. He'd have found his path given the chance, whatever it was to be.
Brandon was also strange, is also strange. However much he dislikes homosexuality or camp kids, there is no excuse to kill them, especially coldly and unemotionally kn a classroom. There's no excuse to beat them up, either.
So I go to my sample of one: me.
As a teenager I was so scared of my own sexuality that I was homophobic. I hated me and I hated queers. And there was one highly attractive kid that I actually hated. I wonder if, given the right (wrong?) circumstances....
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
But surely, Marc, you don't condone it. However Larry King acted you don't think he gets any part of the blame for the murder, do you?
Love,
Anthony
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
No, Roger, the Falwells of the world aren't to blame. They do have a lot to answer for, as do most other religious people, but they didn't pull the trigger.
Neither the people who make (some) society homophobic nor the camp people that goad the homophobes are to blame for murder. Of course I'd like to stop the preachers. I don't know how!
I would also like to persuade gay people that they don't *have* to be flamboyantly camp - but what on earth is wrong with being flamboyantly camp? Nothing! It's just that I want to remove the pressure either to conform or to rebel.
Love,
Anthony
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
OK Marc, I suppose I must make do with 'approximately'  .
A couple of weeks ago there was a big furore here in Israel. A new bridge (a horrible monstrosity) was opened in Jerusalem with much pomp and circumstance. At the very last minute a group of girl dancers, aged around 11, was told that they could not wear their ballet tights and would have to cover themselves with what was very much like a sack because their ballet tights would be offensive to the mayor who is ultra-orthodox. The newspapers had a field day, saying that this is a free country and that there was nothing to stop the mayor looking the other way if he didn't want to see 11 year olds in ballet tights.
What would have been your take on this?
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pipo
|
 |
Toe is in the water |
Registered: July 2008
Messages: 35
|
|
|
I think this paragraph in the Newsweek story points to the direct motive:
And then there was Valentine's Day. A day or two before the shooting, the school was buzzing with the story about a game Larry was playing with a group of his girlfriends in the outdoor quad. The idea was, you had to go up to your crush and ask them to be your Valentine. Several girls named boys they liked, then marched off to complete the mission. When it was Larry's turn, he named Brandon, who happened to be playing basketball nearby. Larry walked right on to the court in the middle of the game and asked Brandon to be his Valentine. Brandon's friends were there and started joking that he and Larry were going to make "gay babies" together. At the end of lunch, Brandon passed by one of Larry's friends in the hall. She says he told her to say goodbye to Larry, because she would never see him again.
Of course I do not condone murder (and I can not imagine responding violently myself), but if someone would approach me like that, I would find that extremely embarrasing and offensive. And at that age, it would have been a direct threat to my status and public identity.
I am really sorry, but I do not think that in this case indoctrination by "Christians" is necessarily to blame for the behaviour of Brandon - if the story is remotely true, the victim did act rather provocatively.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
My take would have been that the girls never ran up to the mayor and taunted him with their tights.
But there is a huge difference between little girls dancing on a bridge and boys taunting each other in a school hall.
They didnt wear various colors of tights, day after day.... Taunting again and again.
If one were to place blame I would have to look at the school administration.... that and with a particular focus on the lesbian assistant principal who more than likely was promoting her own gay agenda.
Is this some sort of test?
[Updated on: Sun, 20 July 2008 12:01]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Marc wrote:
Is this some sort of test?
Not at all! It was part of my attempt to understand your position in this matter. I think I have a better understanding of your position now.
I agree with you that Larry acted in a manner that provoked Brandon. I cannot accept, though, that this provocation 'explains' what happened. However Larry dressed cannot explain murder; however much he embarrassed Brandon cannot explain murder. Whatever the machinations of the deputy principal may have been they cannot explain murder. Wow to the society that accepts such an explanation.
As a teenager - like all of us here - I was acutely embarrassed many times and for many reasons: that's part of teenage life. I got over it each time. I never thought of murdering my tormentor: I wouldn't even have know how to!
How did Brandon get hold of a gun? Why was it possible for him to get it into school? What kind of values has the society in which he lives taught him? Does human life no longer have any value at all?
[Marc, I suggest that you do not read on: it could be painful.]
Of all the people in this forum Marc has probably had, at various times in his life, the greatest reason to hate people who have attacked him and tormented him - even watching his boyfriend being murdered by thugs. But Marc has not murdered anybody. I am reasonably certain that the idea has never seriously entered into his mind.
The Talmudic sages have a saying that "it's not the mouse that's a thief, it's the hole that's the thief." If society does not stop up its holes it cannot complain that the cheese gets stolen. As far as Brandon the murderer is concerned there are too many unstopped holes. How is he going to be able to live with himself for the rest of his life?
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gee, do you think Jack the Ripper had the same kind of problem?
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Nothing in Larry's or Brandon's actions could possibly explain what happened... Nor could they in any way justify what happened...
Both of their actions (as well as the lack of action from some quarters) did however CAUSE what happened.
Here guns can be bought on street corners.
And not all schools have adequate security.
The values in this society is hard for me to comment on as I have no experience with his local situation.
no... i couldnt do something like that
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Now who's pushing the limits of reason?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
unsui
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
|
|
|
No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 17:58] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Marc, thank you for this clarification. I agree with this your analysis.
Hugs
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
|
|
|
Looking at that italicised statement, no-one can deny that Larry was stupid. Being dead does not suddenly make him wise or perfect. And yes, it would have been unpleasant for Brandon.
But that does not excuse cold blooded murder.
I feel that some of the blame lies with video "shoot 'em up" games where no real person gets hurt. But I have no idea whether Brandon was a fan.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
|
|
|
Now I understand it too I agree that it is a fair analysis. I did not understand it as first expressed,and I'm enormously grateful for the clarifications
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
unsui
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
|
|
|
No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 17:58] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pipo
|
|
Toe is in the water |
Registered: July 2008
Messages: 35
|
|
|
I do not say it excuses the murder, I think nothing excuses murder. What I wanted to point out is that we do not always have to look for a right wing conspiracy to explain why people respond badly to gays. Tolerance becomes very difficult if someone that is part of a minority acts up like Larry did. The other boy still deserves to be punished for the severe crime that he commited. I would be in favor of trying him as a minor, though.
[Updated on: Sun, 20 July 2008 19:51] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Actually I was being flippant and Im sorry if I offened you. No one knows why Jack the Ripper killed. The fact that he may have done it for sexual reasons is purely speculative, especially since no sexual act was involved. Someone had to teach the boy that murder in this case was ok and justifyable in this instance. Did the boy belong to a gang? What were his parents reactions to the murder? Most boys that age might have been upset about being asked to be a valintine, but not to the point of taking someone elses life. Children have to be taught to hate, it doesnt come naturally. After 40 years in education I have seen the best and the worst in children. Ive seen the children who have been filled with hate by fundamentalist parents and preachers who teach intolerance and bigotry. I agree that the boys acting out was allowed to go to far by the system and the parents, but that still wasnt an excuse for murder.
[Updated on: Sun, 20 July 2008 20:37]
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pipo
|
|
Toe is in the water |
Registered: July 2008
Messages: 35
|
|
|
Thanks for taking me seriously now. You did not really offend me, no apology needed. And you caught me out in not bothering to research Jack the Ripper before answering your previous post
As you can see from my post count, I am new as a contributor to this forum and I am just hoping to find it a civilized and tolerant environment - not only tolerant of sexual orientation but also of different viewpoints. I initially started visting here because I am an avid reader and I appreciate sites like iomfats that publish gay-oriented fiction that is more than just porn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pipo
|
|
Toe is in the water |
Registered: July 2008
Messages: 35
|
|
|
Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
|
|
|
I have never understood the US concept of trying a minor as an adult. He is a child. He should be tried and sentenced as a child
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
It's not a decision taken lightly by the courts....
Many factors have to be considered such as the degree of the crime, the intent, if it was a hate crime, and if there was some sort of conspiracy (with other unnamed parties).
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Welcome, it was my shortcoming not to notice you were new here. I too started as a reader and then discovered that the forum met certain needs that couldnt be taken care of anywhere else. Timmy has developed a fantastic site and all the guys in the forum are diverse and even tho it seems like we fight sometimes we are a close family. You like everyone are welcome here and I hope you will find the forum as much fun as I do.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
|
|
|
I guess the place I'm coming form is that an adult is an adult and a minor a minor. It seems odd to me that one can elect to try a minor as an adult, solely because the minor is a minor, if you follow me.
Otherwise one might as well remove the distinction between minor and adult for all crimes and base any trial simply on the facts of the case. Yet that must be unfair because otherwise the law would not provide for trial as a minor.
I suspect this is evidence that the criminal law is really there (in all nations) for revenge, not rehabilitation.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
|
|
|
I've looked at this site a number of times. One thing strikes me about it.
We see Larry as he was as an infant and up to about age 10, maybe a year or so older. This is the 'cleansed Larry', surely? We do not see the 12, 13 (etc) year old Larry. We don't see any pictures that show this lad as he was in recent times at all.
As someone who knew him not at all I would feel more emotionally moved if I saw the boy as the man he was becoming, not as a sanitised child. So I am not sure, quite, what the memorial does, and for whom it is intended.
I know that some will say "timmy, what are you thinking! This desecrates a memorial!" But I see the memorial as an incomplete memorial. I wish they would show the real youth, not just the tiny boy.
Or could I just not find the real Larry because of my own incompetence?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
There is one picture, second to the last in the "gallery" area.......
I get a general feeling of this site which tells me that "dad" is the object of the memorial fund.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
|
|
|
I kind of see the picture. It still looks like a happy 11 year old lad, not the murdered boy. No harm in that, and no harm in the family remembering the lad as they wish to. Nor in Dad being the recipient of any funds, really.
I just feel, unless I am being churlish, that (from no knowledge of Larry at all) this site and gallery is so different from the reported personality at his untimely death that it is not the way he might have anticipated being remembered.
Maybe I am making too much of this.
[Updated on: Mon, 21 July 2008 10:34]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Timmy, I could only find a pic on the site from 2006. Obviously he was a very dimenutive boy and did not appear as old as he was.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13806
|
|
|
Well, that does seem to be the case. Makes you wonder why the killer found him such a threat, really.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
What makes a teen boy fearful to the point of an ultimate act of heinous violence?
How about how all the kids he associates with view him?
In todays school culture, for some few, being a flamboyant gay is their thing... For the majority however it is being an accepted member of the straight community...
Now, if that straight personna is threatened in some overt way, say, by a boy who is infatuated with one of the straight community. Or what if the bot was one of the gay community who did not under any circumstances want to be outed by an already "out" boy.
The peer pressure exerted upon the "straight" boy, along with a need to remain annonymous could push him over the edge don't you think?
Might it be possible that he thought "being a murderer" is preferable to being gay at a time when he is not yet ready to be gay?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, Timmy,
the evidence is pretty strong. Much of the punishment the law exacts is purely revengeful. Lex talionis as they say.
I remember being greatly impressed by a passage either in Utopia or Erewhon where the visitor to this strange land has a sad man pointed out to him and is told the reason he is sad is that he killed his lover in a fit of jealousy. The visitor is astonished that he is not in prison serving at least a long sentence.
It is pointed out to him that there is no point, as the 'criminal' is really repenting and is most unlikely to do such a thing again and why waste public funds and jailers for no benefit to society or to him. If he's left at large he may do something useful!
Although extreme and it ignores the feelings of those that suffered from a crime I've always felt that this argument ought to carry more weight than any other when deciding what public policy on crime and imprisonment should be.
But, for example this government makes obeisance to the Daily Mail by giving a family of a murdered person a say at the trial. I think that is wholly wrong and that they should have no say at all in what is done to the murderer.
I suspect I'm even more radical than you in this view, am I?
Love,
Anthony
PS I've been collecting books about utopias for about sixty years and still enjoy the amazingly radical ideas they can put forward. The musical banks in Erewhon are as wonderful at satirising the churches as Marcus Brigstock on "The Now Show" (radio 4).
|
|
|
|
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
But where is the real Larry? 
