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Tim. sorry if my last post on the previous thread sounded snippy.
I have been having a thoroughly rotten time on all the MB's lately. Perhaps even bashed.
So have you.
The silly posts about Tom Lehrer actually helped me go to bed with a smile on my lips and a slightly lighter heart last night. I needed that a lot.
So it hurt my feelings when I read your "Back to business" post. I don't want to have to become a lurker here, too. Not when it's my only on-line refuge right now.
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I love silly posts. Adore them. I just have sometimes a passion for things that may (even!) transcend politeness. I think Mihangel got it right by rethreading it!
This is cyberspace. Nothing is real. I guess we try to make it as real as we can and make it live for us. The "Lehrer inside Moore" thread was th eculmination of a load of people on other messageboards saying "He has a right to speak" and I feel so passionately about both this messageboard and that topic that I posted what I thought was an impersonal reminder.
I suppose I am a compartmental person. I kept being gay in a compartment since I was 13. I live in compartments. I awlays have. I tend to think of places like this as neat compartments too.
Oddly, my desk is a mess
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richard lyon
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Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
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At least the "trivialities" on this board have a lot more class and style than any of the others.
Richard
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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"At least the "trivialities" on this board have a lot more class and style than any of the others."
Yes, but sometimes less personal compassion and acceptance - more caring about issues that people, at least that's what I'm feeling today, as I catch up on the various recent postings. Maybe I'd rather be passionate about people than issues?
I mean, damn, Tim, I dunno whether to hug you or slap you or help you pull your foot outta your mouth. I mean, you say and do SO many things right and then shoot yourself in the foot by overreating over at the Shack or getting anal retentive about the message thread. I KNOW you don't want to hear that and I would only say it to a friend, and I think we're generally in the company of your other friends, here.
Of course, my general philosophy is "if you keep your mouth shut, you can't prove your own stupidity" - for better or worse.
I guess that's why I didn't write to Sharon or the governor of Alabama. Not that I'm much of a political activist, anyway, (and I'm glad many of you ARE, btw) but I really feel too ignorant about much of the politics to feel confident in drafting a letter. I also don't know how much good an anonymous letter would do and am not in a position to sign my real name. I've also seen "the press" totally mangle the facts way too many times to take much I read at face value anymore.
Yes, I do take full responsibility for my ignorance - ignorance can be a choice.
But, I also think a bunch of letters from obviously misinformed or ignorant folks isn't going to help and may even backfire (it would if I were the governor, anyway.) Nothing personal, but if the judge was elected by the people, based partly on his vocal conservatism, and the governor doesn't have the authority to summarily remove him from power, what CAN he do? And if he's a bigot, too, it may only give him more ammunition or self-justifcation or whatever.
Now I WILL influence my circle of friends, including my children and their friends, to love each other and accept each others' differences, including the bigots, I suppose. Maybe that's my role, I dunno.
Okay, I guess I've had my little vent. I'm not usually one to stir the pot. I hope y'all can accept my differing opinion and get on with the business of taking care of each other - or is that our business? Well, g'day.
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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Trevor, I know exactly how you feel. Different people have different roles to play. You feel happy in one, not in others. I'm not an activist either - I've never taken part in a march or demonstration, because while they can occasionally affect the issue, they are usually useless and can backfire horribly. In my time I've written a fair number of letters of protest about one thing or another, and given evidence at public enquiries on matters I feel strongly about, and my failure rate must be 98%. Comes a time when you start asking 'What's the point?' OK, defeatist, I know.
Like you, I'm chary of the big political issues. I did write, somewhat against my better judgment, to Sharon, but not the governor for much the same reasons as you, especially because my email name is very obviously not my own. I've some experience of petitions, and know the usual reaction of the recipients - straight in the bin. And petitions which include obviously false or duplicate names or pseudonyms can be positively counterproductive by putting in question the bona fides of the petitioners.
We all have our own style. There are crusaders, there are counsellors, there are private setters-of-good-examples. Tim does it his way, you do it your way, so-and-so does it another. Fine. Nobody (I hope) is pressurising anyone to do anything they're not happy with. Trying to persuade, maybe, but that's a rather different matter, provided no offence is taken if people say 'no'. And if I end up cast as the buffoon who posts silly verses which cheer up an otherwise gloomy board, I'm content. I'll have done my tiny little bit towards the general good.
Mihangel
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Thanks Tim, for clarifying. I appreciate it. And thanks, guys, for being so understanding. I echo your sentiments in this thread 1000%...all types of responses are needed, and I will keep doing so in many ways, depending on my resources at the moment.
I am very chuffed with myself that I was the one who broke the Judge Moore news on the MB's in the first place...I even beat Lance's "people" as they were busy yelling at ME...hehehe
Just a little heads up...Tim is being attacked on the Yell and Vent Board...maybe some yelling of our own there would be in order? (Strictly for those who enjoy pot stirring and yelling, for sure...hehehe)
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I am just human. But at times I am made to feel that I must become above all that. At another place people put me on a damned stupid pedestal for ages. When I fell off it (and no surprise that I did) my downfall was seized with triumphant zeal and vigour. I was bound to fall of it: I never wanted to be on it in the first place; The top was very small; I am a human being!
So slap me with pleasure, though I think I am simply displaying the attriutes that no-one recognised: intensity, passion, recklessness, ability to jump to conclusions, humn nature.
I looked, for fun at the alleged Yell, Vent and Anger board. It's an amusing place, and is not all it seems. Sure I am being attacked there, and by people who enjoy attacking. What you may not know is that the owner tracks IP addresses and gives them out to his friends so that alleged attacks may be traced! I know this because lower down a post has been attributed to me, and I am assuming it is because it has a UK IP address.
Still, I am told there that I have a board of my own and shoudl post nowhere else, which reminds me totally of the schoolyard. "You're not in my gang, go away." And the posters display the self same attributes that I do. Not a lot wrong with tjose attributes is there? Not in real terms?
The truly amusing thing is that we pro0ve time and time again that there is no such thing as a "Gay Community". We argue and fight amongst ourselves instead of defending attacks. I'm not criticising those whose personal choice is not to act. All such people have an absolute right not to act, and also the right not to have to defend any inaction. I am instead criticising those who argue aboutthe shape of the conference table instead of debating the issues at hand. Bad metaphor, but you see what I mean?
We argue about "degrees of gayness" in a way, not about attacks on people whose sexual orientation is towards the same gender. Community we are not, and I feel neither should be nor can be. I guess I just get passionate about attacks which would have had me pilloried for loving another boy. And I take those personally. Well, I would, wouldn't I?
BTW Didn't Brian highlight Judge Moore here? Or did I lose the plot? 
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Might have been Brian...no matter as long as the word got out, tho.
I have made a new New Year's resolution...to avoid any and all Message Board battles from now on...
They never lead anywhere except for frustration and misunderstanding.
Plus they seem to high-lite an unflattering tendency I have to want the last word...ugh...
Maybe I'm naive to keep hoping for real community? The same problem when I was in New York City's "activist" stuff years ago, tho. All the battles between people who could and should have been allies...
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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Last night I toddled out to visit some of the other boards to see what all the fuss was about. The atmosphere was rather like that in rowdy pubs late on a Saturday night, thick with shouted obscenities and brawling and fisticuffs and unreason. I was only too glad to creep back to the fireside in the snug at the old Wig and Mitre. It is comfortable here, and quiet, but certainly not insipid. Critics might call it cosy. No harm in that. We're individuals like everyone else and we don't always agree, but we disagree in a civilised way. If it wasn't already called a Place of Safety I'd recommend calling it a Place of Sanity
Thanks, Tim. We couldn't have a better landlord.
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Reminds me of a running joke I have with one of my best friends..."You aren't the most self-centered person on Earth...I am!"
"NO! You're wrong...you're not the most self-centered person on Earth...I am...!"
And so it goes...
Thanks for the reality check...
Oh, Mihangel...what other names could we come up with for that IDEAL pub?
I nominate "The Star and Garter"
It was a saying of my old grannie..."oh, my stars and garters..."
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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richard lyon
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Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
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No Message Body
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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Well, there's one in Derbyshire called The Man with a Load of Mischief (genuine old name), but that might be better applied to one or other of the pubs we don't like.
Near Cambridge there's a Fish and Duck. Trouble is, I'm liable to spoonerisms.
I plumped for Wig and Mitre because of its air of comfortable authority. And pompousness? Umm. And I like the only Wig and Mitre I remember patronising (apart from this one, that is).
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brian
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 60
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yay, cause i specilized on that
actually, i'm tired cause i had school and band rehearsal, so please don't expect too much of this. hmm...where to start....yes...well...i read...8 messageboards plus my own one (yes, i do have one, but it's very...i dunno..secluded cause nobody sort of knows about it) 3 of those 8 messageboards are boylove boards, five of them are gay messageboards. The funny thing is that there is some difference in the way people treat each other. It's not all happy family on boylove boards, but it is a lot better than on some gay messageboards. it feels very very cozy and happy there.
which just brings me to one point, i am totally against the concept of the Yell, Vent & Anger Board anyway. Rather honestly, i think it's useless. the only thing it provides is a platform for people to flame somebody else in public which is stupid in my opinion. Everybody is like, keep those flames in private (cause it IS the better thing to do) and it is done openly on that board. I see no purpose there. useless bitching.
i followed the discussion there, partly of personal interest cause i'm a member of this board, cause i am friends with Torsten, and partly cause of amusement. and i didn't give any comment on it because of the very same reasons.
i honestly think that neither Tim nor the others are innocents in that thing, but i definitely do not like the way it is handled. i won't say it there though because i do in fact not know all the facts. so i keep my mouth shut, and form my own opinion on it. something some people don't seem to do. obviously.
it pisses me off that judgements are being made by people because of what the supposedly leading figures of the MBs think. obviously some people are not able to think on their own anymore. again, i try to form my own opinion on it. i wouldn't be posting here if i believed everything i have been told. i wouldn't be posting anywhere if i believed that.
what pisses me off most about all these things that it's always people suffering from that who don't deserve it at all. example, boylove discussion and comicality. or draco. that boylove discussion was rather funny anyway. many people openly say they are no boylovers and boylove is sick etc. and e-mail me afterwards to ask for the links to boylove boards. and not because they want to start any attacks there. for me that is double standard, and i can't stand this. and i am definitely not like that, i guess. i hope so anyway.
In this 'community' (and i mean the other MBs with that) discussion seems impossible to me. the opinions that count are those of...maybe five people. everybody else tries to accomondate their opinion to that anyway. it's sort of frustrating. and very honestly, sort of funny.
gee...what a rant this was. sorry, slightly (  ) off-topic, i suppose. and that was no attack on the other MBs. Not intended to be one anyway.
so all in all, Tim, I odn't know you, that's why I don't know if I can trust you, but up to now I have had no reason to believe that I cannot trust you. That's why I'm here.
so yay...that was it. pretty post
love,
brian
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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It has to be earned. And re-earned all the time. You are as right not to trust (eg) me as not to trust anyone else untiltheyhave proven that you maytrustthem. That another person trusts them is a good indicator that they may be trustworthy, but is not 100% certain.
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...y.
Tim, I don't want you up on a pedestal, that just makes it hard to reach you (and the other way around too).
I just see you as a very warm and compassionate and friendly person. Please, stay that way.
And about Judge Moore, I thought it was I who started it, at least on this board. But who cares, really? The important thing is that people do take notice (and preferably, act) after all, not who gets credit for noticing it in the first place.
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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Can there really be a true, single community when gays/bis are as different and diverse as heteros? Maybe it's naive to think we'd all be able to hold hands and sing "we shall overcome" just because we all share a more or less common sexual orientation.
That's not much common grounds to build on...
With this I don't mean to say it's hopeless/idiotic to hope or strive for it, but one has to be realistic as well I think. Languages, nationality, culture, religion and lots of other things too works against the idea of a "true" community. Differences has always been a problem with us humans.
Just my $0.05.
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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It has caused a bit of a stir, has it not?
I hated it on the pedestal. I was praised as "the father of......" and treated with some sort of odd reverence. This meant, of course, thatI had to act as though I was revered.
What I tried to do was to insist on courtesy. The problem was that I found myself less and less able to feel comfortable in the presence of some people who insisted on being discourteous, and those who said I was wrong to seek to ask for common decency.
That is why I mostly left that place and other places and started this board here.
Here we may disagree violently. But, a few rowdy and random posters aside, we are courteous. This means that we cna possoibly even influnece each other.
Have you noticed how an argument brings a counter argument, whereas a discussion brings a considered reply?
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richard lyon
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Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
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In Oakland, across the bay from San Francisco, there is a bar/ resturant located near the court house named The Bench and Bar. At night when the downtown is deserted it turns into a gay disco. The nighttime version is coloquellay know as The Bitch and Bar.
Richard
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Man 1: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a definite proposition.
Man 2: No it isn't.
Sorry, I just thought the quote suited the moment.
Arguments CAN be constructive, but just having an argument might perhaps lead to a more hostile environment than a discussion. It's not easy to say with certainty however that arguments are less productive. It all depends on how the argument/discussion is conducted...
Being revered when it is not wanted must indeed be difficult. You just have to live with my reverence however, I revere you as a particulary HUMAN human being. Still just a human being however, not an idol up on a pedestal. Is that acceptable to you?
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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Not the big deal you felt, I think 
Random thoughts and venting 
hey, i wanna say something too (ranting on and on and on...) 
Rambling's good too. Lots of interesting things have been said that wa 
